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A Faithful Knight in Winterfell

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5 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

No he was never officially a knight!!!

He still isn't a knight!!!

You are still missing my point. He wouldn't have to keep correcting people if they didn't believe he was a knight. People believed he was a knight. If they didn't believe he was a knight, he wouldn't have to keep correcting them.

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26 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

You are still missing my point. He wouldn't have to keep correcting people if they didn't believe he was a knight. People believed he was a knight. If they didn't believe he was a knight, he wouldn't have to keep correcting them.

Yeah but perception doesn't create reality. Perceived by who? The common people, sure maybe so? Sansa the child? Because it seems clear to me that all the nobility knew he was not a Ser (bar Sansa I guess). Otherwise they wouldn't have made a comment - it would have been a given. 

He rode in the lists as Sandor Clegane, not Ser Sandor.

Same with Jory. Would everyone not have called him Ser Jory? They call Rodrik, Ser Rodrik...

Your logic just baffles me.

 

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Hugh of the Vale, a new-made knight, refuses to speak with Jory, whom he considers less prestigious. Jory's uncle Rodrik is a knight (does he accept the Seven, or still follow the old gods like Bartimus?), but Jory's late father Martyn has not been called a knight (unlike Ser Mark Ryswell, who also died at the tower of joy).

Quote

Jory had spoken to each of them in turn. Ser Hugh had been brusque and uninformative, and arrogant as only a new-made knight can be. If the Hand wished to talk to him, he should be pleased to receive him, but he would not be questioned by a mere captain of guards … even if said captain was ten years older and a hundred times the swordsman.  (AGOT Eddard VI)

Jory, Alyn, Harwin, and Sandor all compete in the Hand's tourney, with Alyn the only one mentioned as wanting to become a knight.

Quote

And no one had raised a voice or drawn a blade or anything, not Harwin who always talked so bold, or Alyn who was going to be a knight, or Jory who was captain of the guard. Not even her father. (AGOT Arya II)

The Hound entered the lists as well, and so too the king's brother, handsome Lord Renly of Storm's End. Jory, Alyn, and Harwin rode for Winterfell and the north. "Jory looks a beggar among these others," Septa Mordane sniffed when he appeared. Sansa could only agree. Jory's armor was blue-grey plate without device or ornament, and a thin grey cloak hung from his shoulders like a soiled rag. Yet he acquitted himself well, unhorsing Horas Redwyne in his first joust and one of the Freys in his second. In his third match, he rode three passes at a freerider named Lothor Brune whose armor was as drab as his own. Neither man lost his seat, but Brune's lance was steadier and his blows better placed, and the king gave him the victory. Alyn and Harwin fared less well; Harwin was unhorsed in his first tilt by Ser Meryn of the Kingsguard, while Alyn fell to Ser Balon Swann. (AGOT Sansa II)

The Hound just managed to stay in his saddle. He jerked his mount around hard and rode back to the lists for the second pass. Jaime Lannister tossed down his broken lance and snatched up a fresh one, jesting with his squire. The Hound spurred forward at a hard gallop. Lannister rode to meet him. This time, when Jaime shifted his seat, Sandor Clegane shifted with him. Both lances exploded, and by the time the splinters had settled, a riderless blood bay was trotting off in search of grass while Ser Jaime Lannister rolled in the dirt, golden and dented. (AGOT Eddard VII)

Sandor also participated in the tourney on Joffrey's name day (before the books begin).

Quote

"Ser Barristan is as valiant and honorable as any man in King's Landing." Ned had come to have a deep respect for the aged, white-haired Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

"And as tiresome," Littlefinger added, "though I daresay he should do well in the tourney. Last year he unhorsed the Hound, and it was only four years ago that he was champion." (AGOT Eddard V)

Brienne participates in the tourney at Bitterbridge.

Quote

"As you say." She gave the command, though she had to raise her voice to be heard above the tourney din. Ser Colen walked his horse slowly through the throngs, with Catelyn riding in his wake. A roar went up from the crowd as a helmetless red-bearded man with a griffin on his shield went down before a big knight in blue armor. His steel was a deep cobalt, even the blunt morningstar he wielded with such deadly effect, his mount barded in the quartered sun-and-moon heraldry of House Tarth. (ACOK Catelyn II)

 

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4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Actually I did, and you skipped over some of my responses. You also misinterpreted what I said. I never said all of the houses in the north had a master at arms that were knights, but according to the wiki all of the great houses did except for Greywater Watch.

While it's not confirmed either yes or no, I think there is evidence to suggest that he was a knight. 

While Jory is never referred to as "Ser", neither are other knights called Ser by their closest friends and family. House Cassel is a house that practices knighthood, and Rory's uncle Rodrik is a knight. While not explicitly confirmed nor denied in the text IMO it's not out of the realm of possibility that Jory had been knighted. If your house practiced knighthood and your uncle was a knight it seems likely that you would also train to be a knight. Which Alan are you referring to? 

As to the tourney for Ned, GRRM did say Robert didn't hold to traditional rules. The Hand tourney isn't applicable to the OP - the tourney at Harrenhal is what is important, and whether or not Lord Whent would stick to traditional rules.

You're missing my point. Sandor hated the hypocrisy of knighthood, but there's no doubt that people around him considered him a knight - that is why he repeated corrected others for calling him a knight. 

Sandor was perceived to be a knight by the people around him, and when he became a Kingsguard he was officially a knight. It's a title he despised and constantly berated, but his eligibility would never have been questioned.

I've already answered my thoughts about Jory. His house practiced knighthood, and his uncle was a knight and master at arms. Jory wouldn't have become captain of guards had he not completed his training.

Brienne was accepted as one of Renly's Rainbow Guard, which is a kind of Kingsguard, which in my mind is a kind of knighthood. I don't recall Brienne entering a tourney, so I would be grateful if you would enlighten me with supporting text. The same goes for Sandor - I don't remember if he so much as competed in a tourney as stepped in to stop his brother from killing Loras. He was always guarding Joffrey, so I don't think he ever had leave to compete.

The OP was intended to present the evidence that suggests Rickard became a knight, which in turn provides an alternate explanation for 'southron ambitions'. I don't believe Lady Barbary's term is as provocative as it seems.

I've theorized in the past about a grand conspiracy in my Tywin + Lyanna = Dead girl essay, but have since changed my mind about there being a grand conspiracy prior to the rebellion. The only person I am uncertain about is Jon Arryn. I think he and Tywin communicated behind the scenes, but I don't believe Hoster, Rickard, or Steffon were part of a conspiracy before Lyanna was abducted.

I do believe Tywin manipulated the Riverland and Northern Houses into turning against the Targaryens, but consider this: if Rickard were involved in a grand conspiracy, why didn't he attend the tourney at Harrenhal? I don't think Hoster is even mentioned as attending. Tywin is conspicuously absent, because he was upset with King Aegon taking Jaime as a Kingsguard. 

Brandon, Ned, Lyanna, and Benjen went to the tourney to watch Brandon compete, and if he hadn't wanted to compete - probably none of them would have gone, so I think his becoming a knight would be a significant mitigating factor. It's a domino trigger that set off a whole chain reaction. 

It's fine if people don't agree with what I've presented. It is called a theory after all. ;)

I think you're being a little thick.  Sandor was not a knight.  Jory was not a knight.  In GOT Ned even talks about how knights have a high opinion of themselves when he sends Jory to talk to Ser Hugh of the Vale.  Ser Hugh wouldn't talk to Jory because Jory wasn't a knight, he was merely Captain of Guards for Ned.  Then Ned even thinks to himself that even though Ser Hugh is a knight, Jory is older and 10 times the swordsman.

No one considered Sandor a knight because Sandor wasn't a knight.  They considered Sandor a bad SOB and an awesome fighter and killer, but not a knight.  Jory Cassel was also not a knight, just like Eddard is not a knight and Brandon wasn't a knight.  Ser Rodrik is the only Cassel was know of that was a knight, so you assuming that the Cassel family practiced knighthood is also likely wrong.  Martyn was never identified as a knight.

Your whole theory is based on premises that simply are proven to be untrue or that have no evidence to back them up.

Also, Sandor did compete in the Hand's Tourney....he was one of the final 4 jousters and he defeated Jamie Lannister.  

Edited by acwill07

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1 hour ago, Nittanian said:

Hugh of the Vale, a new-made knight, refuses to speak with Jory, whom he considers less prestigious. Jory's uncle Rodrik is a knight (does he accept the Seven, or still follow the old gods like Bartimus?), but Jory's late father Martyn has not been called a knight (unlike Ser Mark Ryswell, who also died at the tower of joy).

Jory, Alyn, Harwin, and Sandor all compete in the Hand's tourney, with Alyn the only one mentioned as wanting to become a knight.

Sandor also participated in the tourney on Joffrey's name day (before the books begin).

Brienne participates in the tourney at Bitterbridge.

 

I agree the Hand's tourney allowed men who were not knights to compete. We've already seen the SSM where GRRM says so, and I have also replied more than once that the Hand's tourney is not the tourney that is important nor is it applicable to the OP. The tourney that is applicable is the Tourney at Harrenhal. We can only speculate how traditional Lord Whent made his rules, because we have no confirmation either way.

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1 hour ago, Nittanian said:

Hugh of the Vale, a new-made knight, refuses to speak with Jory, whom he considers less prestigious. Jory's uncle Rodrik is a knight (does he accept the Seven, or still follow the old gods like Bartimus?), but Jory's late father Martyn has not been called a knight (unlike Ser Mark Ryswell, who also died at the tower of joy).

Jory, Alyn, Harwin, and Sandor all compete in the Hand's tourney, with Alyn the only one mentioned as wanting to become a knight.

Sandor also participated in the tourney on Joffrey's name day (before the books begin).

Brienne participates in the tourney at Bitterbridge.

 

I'm glad to see that you got this posted before I did.  The Hugh of the Vale exchange pokes a hole in this whole ridiculous theory.  

 

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4 minutes ago, acwill07 said:

I think you're being a little thick.  Sandor was not a knight.  Jory was not a knight.  In GOT Ned even talks about how knights have a high opinion of themselves when he sends Jory to talk to Ser Hugh of the Vale.  Ser Hugh wouldn't talk to Jory because Jory wasn't a knight, he was merely Captain of Guards for Ned.  Then Ned even thinks to himself that even though Ser Hugh is a knight, Jory is older and 10 times the swordsman.

No one considered Sandor a knight because Sandor wasn't a knight.  They considered Sandor a bad SOB and an awesome fighter and killer, but not a knight.  Jory Cassel was also not a knight, just like Eddard is not a knight and Brandon wasn't a knight.  Ser Rodrik is the only Cassel was know of that was a knight, so you assuming that the Cassel family practiced knighthood is also likely wrong.  Martyn was never identified as a knight.

Your whole theory is based on premises that simply are proven to be untrue or that have no evidence to back them up.

And you (and others) are using the details from the Hand's tourney to support your argument that Brandon was not a knight. What does the Hand's tourney have to do with the Harrenhal tourney? Each host makes the rules for their tourney, and the author has stated that Robert was bending the traditional rules. This tangent debating the merits of whether Sandor and Jory were officially knights or trained as knights has nothing to do with whether or not Brandon was a knight. I realize that you (and others) are using the Hand's tourney to prove that non-knights were allowed to enter tourneys, but it only proves the Hand's tourney allowed non-knights to compete. It doesn't prove that the Harrenhal tourney also allowed non-knights to enter.

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16 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

And you (and others) are using the details from the Hand's tourney to support your argument that Brandon was not a knight. What does the Hand's tourney have to do with the Harrenhal tourney? Each host makes the rules for their tourney, and the author has stated that Robert was bending the traditional rules. This tangent debating the merits of whether Sandor and Jory were officially knights or trained as knights has nothing to do with whether or not Brandon was a knight. I realize that you (and others) are using the Hand's tourney to prove that non-knights were allowed to enter tourneys, but it only proves the Hand's tourney allowed non-knights to compete. It doesn't prove that the Harrenhal tourney also allowed non-knights to enter.

As someone told you earlier ITT, the burden is on you to prove that Brandon was a knight considering there was never any textual evidence to support that.  If Brandon had been a knight, Ned would've mentioned it or thought about it at some point.  

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17 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It doesn't prove that the Harrenhal tourney also allowed non-knights to ent

The KotLT?

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Ever heard of a Mystery Knight?

As well as the KotLT there are many...

From the wiki

Quote

A mystery knight is a contestant at a tournament that competes without revealing his identity. The contestant may or may not reveal his identity later. Mystery knights choose to conceal their names for a variety of reasons.

Description

When Meera Reed tells Bran Stark of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, who competed in the Tourney at Harrenhal, Bran recalls from his education: "Mystery knights would oft appear at tourneys, with helms concealing their faces, and shields that were either blank or bore some strange device."[1]

Examples

Besides the Knight of the Laughing Tree, other mystery knights include:

Nobody was checking their knightly credentials, I don't think...

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Any tournament with a mystery knight means anyone could participate in that tournament.

Therefore, anyone could have entered the lists at Harrenhal without being a knight.

 

Edited by Ser Leftwich
verb tense

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A mystery knight still implies they are entering the tourney as a knight even if at times that person turned out not to have been a knight at all. Brandon never entered a tourney as a mystery knight. 

I think it’s noteworthy that King Aerys sought out the Knight of the Laughing Tree, because he wished to unmask him. You have to wonder, for what purpose? Was it to see if they were really a knight?

Edited by Feather Crystal

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17 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think it’s noteworthy that King Aerys sought out the Knight of the Laughing Tree, because he wished to unmask him. You have to wonder, for what purpose? Was it to see if they were really a knight?

No. It was to see who it was. 

Where's @Dorian Martell's son when you need him?

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1 hour ago, acwill07 said:

As someone told you earlier ITT, the burden is on you to prove that Brandon was a knight considering there was never any textual evidence to support that.  If Brandon had been a knight, Ned would've mentioned it or thought about it at some point.  

It’s a fair point for me to point out that the rules at the Hand’s tourney were flexible, because the author said they were. 

Ned doesn’t ever mention his mother’s first name either, but it doesn’t mean he didn’t know it. Absence of evidence isn’t evidence. 

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22 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

A mystery knight still implies they are entering the tourney as a knight even if at times that person turned out not to have been a knight at all. Brandon never entered a tourney as a mystery knight. 

I think it’s noteworthy that King Aerys sought out the Knight of the Laughing Tree, because he wished to unmask him. You have to wonder, for what purpose? Was it to see if they were really a knight?

I thought Aerys thought it was Jaime, and he was pissed because he made Jaime stay in KL.

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3 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

No. It was to see who it was. 

Where's @Dorian Martell's son when you need him?

Yes, to see who he was, but then what? Why could they not remain a mystery? What’s the harm in that? The king became angry when the KotLT failed to show the following day.

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2 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

I thought Aerys thought it was Jaime, and he was pissed because he made Jaime stay in KL.

That was never brought up in Meera’s tale, and nobody else outside of Meera and Jojen mentions the KotLT.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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22 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

A mystery knight still implies they are entering the tourney as a knight even if at times that person turned out not to have been a knight at all. Brandon never entered a tourney as a mystery knight. 

I think it’s noteworthy that King Aerys sought out the Knight of the Laughing Tree, because he wished to unmask him. You have to wonder, for what purpose? Was it to see if they were really a knight?

No, it doesn't imply they are a knight. It implies that it is easier to people to say 'mystery knight' as opposed to 'mystery armor-clad person who is willing to joust." It is blatant that anyone can challenge one of the champions at Harrenhal, without proof of knighthood. Unlike the tourney when Dunk had to prove he was a knight.

If mystery entrants are allowed, then anyone would be. It would impossible to enforce.

The question about Aerys's concern about the identity of the KotLT is irrelevant. Not his tourney, not his rules.

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17 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

That was never brought up in Meera’s tale, and nobody else outside of Meera and Jojen mentions the KotLT.

No, may not have been in Meera's tale - but it does explain why Aerys wanted to learn the identity of the KotLT, for a different reason than wanting to know if it was a Knight.

If that was the case there would be no Mystery Knight category at all.

 

Edited by Legitimate_Bastard

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8 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

That was never brought up in Meera’s tale, and nobody else outside of Meera and Jojen mentions the KotLT.

Not true. It is in the World Book. @Legitimate_Bastard has it correct.

Quote

The first was the appearance of a mystery knight, a slight young man in ill-fitting armor whose device was a carved white weirwood tree, its features twisted in mirth. The Knight of the Laughing Tree, as this challenger was called, unhorsed three men in successive tilts, to the delight of the commons.

King Aerys II was not a man to take any joy in mysteries, however. His Grace became convinced that the tree on the mystery knight's shield was laughing at him, and—with no more proof than that—decided that the mystery knight was Ser Jaime Lannister. His newest Kingsguard had defied him and returned to the tourney, he told every man who would listen.

 

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