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Jon's Small Council and Kingsguard

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23 hours ago, Staenerys Stargaryen said:

Will the north(including and especially the 3 purebred Starks) support a Jon that supports a hopeful southern queen? I like to think yes because she has dragons and armies and is joining the fight against the white walkers.  She is going to help defend the kingdom... Already a better queen then Cersie could ever be and a good enough reason to bend the knee.

I have yet to see that Dany is better than Cersei other than the people involved in the show telling us that she is. Dany and Cersei do similar things for similar reasons (like blowing up religious institutions) yet we are only supposed to see one of them as a villain. Does not compute. I like to think the rest of the Starks are smarter than Jon which shouldn't be a problem since the 3 of them lack a penis. But knowing D&D and them being stans of certain characters, there will be plenty 'everybody loves Dany' happy hours except from characters that the audience and D&D hate (Northern lords, Vale lords, Sansa).

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On 2/19/2019 at 11:44 AM, Staenerys Stargaryen said:

I think the show was struggling a little with bran arriving into and developing his powers because they kinda didn't wanna give everything away too quickly.

Yes, I agree. But I don't see Bran as real Stark anymore. He is now the three-eyed raven and hopefully the show will explain this better the next season. 

On 2/19/2019 at 11:44 AM, Staenerys Stargaryen said:

I doubt Arya would ever try to be like maester says I'm in front of you Jon or something

Here I agree, too. But Arya Stark is one of the most Stark-ish beings there is. I hope Arya and Jon will continue to be close to each other in a siblings manner.

On 2/19/2019 at 11:44 AM, Staenerys Stargaryen said:

because she has dragons and armies and is joining the fight against the white walkers. 

Yes, the Northeners won't like the deal with Daenerys, but the imminent war will be more important and dragons are a fine argument.

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21 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

LF was a sneaky man. He didn't deserve an honorable death. Quick and dirty was good for him.

Right. A trial by combat would not have been Baelish style and trial by combat are not the North's way anyway. Baelish had no honor and so the quick execution was excellent.

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9 hours ago, Mystical said:

I have yet to see that Dany is better than Cersei other than the people involved in the show telling us that she is. Dany and Cersei do similar things for similar reasons (like blowing up religious institutions) yet we are only supposed to see one of them as a villain. Does not compute. I like to think the rest of the Starks are smarter than Jon which shouldn't be a problem since the 3 of them lack a penis. But knowing D&D and them being stans of certain characters, there will be plenty 'everybody loves Dany' happy hours except from characters that the audience and D&D hate (Northern lords, Vale lords, Sansa).

We should see that Dany has a Butcher's Bill at least as long as Cersei. But everything shows how heartless Cersei is. While Dany is good and caring. But they are both fighting for POWER, absolute and unrestrained. Don't imagine the countless horrors on every side is for naught. The NK is here to collect the price. D&D, like GRRM, are on the same line here.

Just don't forget that D&D want to surprise everyone in the last episode. So no wonder that everything looking one way now will look differently at the END.

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1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

We should see that Dany has a Butcher's Bill at least as long as Cersei. But everything shows how heartless Cersei is. While Dany is good and caring. But they are both fighting for POWER, absolute and unrestrained. Don't imagine the countless horrors on every side is for naught. The NK is here to collect the price. D&D, like GRRM, are on the same line here.

Both 'queens' do things because they feel good (even though that was never Cersei's motivation until they invented it in 6x10 but whatever). It makes Dany feel good to free slaves. She's clearly not doing it to give the slaves a better life (she kills them, they starve on the street, they get abused in shelters and rather go back to slavery etc.). They both sometimes do literally the same thing for the same reason and because they messed up in the first place (Sept vs Dothrak). They have innocent people killed. They don't care about trial or due process if it doesn't serve their agenda.

The big difference, and why I 'like' Cersei more as a character, is that there is no illusion about what Cersei is. We are shown straightforward what she is and Cersei herself is fully aware of who she is and makes no excuses for it. She is who she is, we know and she knows it.  With Dany it's all over the map. I'm a queen, no I'm a conqueror, no I'm a queen. She makes grand speeches that amount to absolutely nothing. What does 'breaking the wheel' mean to her? It's been Seasons and I still have no idea. She is all about 'freeing' people but wants to shackle everyone in Westeros for an ugly chair. She didn't come to Westeros to kill everyone but she happily burns food and anyone who doesn't bend the knee to her aka anyone refusing to become her slave. Girl makes no sense whatsoever, she can't decide who she wants to be (queen, conqueror, butcher, messiah...take a damn pick already), most of her actions are questionable and she wants to subjugate or kill an entire  continent because she thinks it's hers.

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36 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Both 'queens' do things because they feel good ...

Totally agree. Particularly on deluding herself. She started by wanting the IT. Then discovered that liberating slaves was a good excuse for getting it. Without understanding it herself. Without care for the consequences for the slaves. Without questioning if the slaves will be happier with a totalitarian queen than with a master. Without asking their leave. The slaves of Slaver's Bay have more need of her now than Westeros. After destroying everything and leaving before anything stable has been rebuilt.

GRRM is making a parallel between slavery and oaths. Particularly when taken by force, like against a threat of death. Concerning the NW, who works until their death? On a penalty of death if leaving? Who but slaves? Who is forced to do things against everything they believe right? Who but slaves?

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7 hours ago, Mystical said:

The big difference, and why I 'like' Cersei more as a character, is that there is no illusion about what Cersei is. We are shown straightforward what she is and Cersei herself is fully aware of who she is and makes no excuses for it. She is who she is, we know and she knows it.  With Dany it's all over the map. I'm a queen, no I'm a conqueror, no I'm a queen. 

I think I understand what you are saying... you like the character cersei more because she is better at being a monster and terrible person whereas you aren't sure if dany is pure evil so you have no patience for her struggles with learning how to rule effectively and passionately while at the same time commanding control. 

Or are we not on the same page with what you truly see as who Cersei is?

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I wouldn't call Cersi a pure monster. She was born in a society that generally treats women like property and she refuses to go down without a fight. Her father treated her as a bargining chip, her husband was in love with a dead woman,  her only "friend" is her twin brother. 

While she tends to get herself into messes her choices in dealing with them are what she believes is best for her and her children.  Good example is when Ned Stark told her take her incestious kids and run, go live a life a shame as a beggaer in a free city somehwere.  Her only other option was arrest Ned and become queen regent while her kid becomes king?  Hmm hard call there..

Cersi dose what she has to in order to stay in power, where dany does what she has to in order to take the power away from her. 

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10 hours ago, Staenerys Stargaryen said:

I think I understand what you are saying... you like the character cersei more because she is better at being a monster and terrible person whereas you aren't sure if dany is pure evil so you have no patience for her struggles with learning how to rule effectively and passionately while at the same time commanding control. 

Or are we not on the same page with what you truly see as who Cersei is?

Nope. You didn't understand what I said, not even a little. I said that I prefer Cersei as a character when it comes to her bad actions because no one makes excuses for them. We were told since the beginning of the show that Cersei is evil even though she hardly did anything that put her in the villain territory until she blew up the Sept. But her bad actions were always understood as such, they were bad. Whereas with Dany the same action was supposed to be seen as good or right. Even when you look at the audience, I don't think anyone said 'yay Cersei' when she blew up the Sept. But I'm sure there were plenty who screamed 'yay Dany' when she torched Vaes Dothrak. It's literally the same story yet one is framed as good and the other is not. So many of Dany's actions are framed that way and it is dishonest. Hence my preference for Cersei from a character standpoint (I don't love Cersei as a person). At least everybody knows who and what she is.

It has nothing to do with my not having patience for character development with Dany. Though really, what's character development? Oh the thing D&D don't care about and have made clear they don't. So it can't be that on my end because there is no such thing on the show. She can learn how to rule all she wants. But when she hurts thousands to do so, then that's not learning to rule. She is using innocents to make herself feel good and prepare for being Queen elsewhere, leaving her test subjects to rot in her destruction once she leaves. And we are always supposed to be on her side no matter what she does and see her as good. Nope, sorry. Not going to happen.

Edited by Mystical

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Ruling over half the population in Meereen and suppressing a resistence movement by the slavers has left Dany unprepared for the soft power and politicking needed to rule in Westeros. She's used to ruling by force and Cersei is ruling by paranoia and neither is what a war-exhausted Westeros needs.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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3 hours ago, Mystical said:

And we are always supposed to be on her side no matter what she does and see her as good. Nope, sorry. Not going to happen.

It is the show and the books which are written that way. We are supposed to believe one thing, like Jon is Ned bastard. Then to discover we were wrong thinking that. With plenty of evidences before we should have paid more attention. Don't we Ramsay?

Cersei is not Sauron. She believes herself smart, ruthless. Bad yes, but no worse than her adversary, those who also want the IT. She may compare herself to Maegor or Harren and see herself just as a powerful queen. She enjoys killing, torturing her enemies. But no more, no less, than previous kings. The privilege of power. The consequence of ruling in a difficult time. She just think she does what is necessary, what other would do in her place, to stay in power.

And Daenerys is deluding herself. It doesn't mean her intrinsically evil. She is just blinded by her education, the things she had to endure in her life before. I understand you are angry with how GRRM and D&D are telling the tale. And how the public seems blind to what Daenerys really is. Just wait the end. I believe you (and I) will find it very rewarding.

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6 hours ago, Mystical said:

Even when you look at the audience, I don't think anyone said 'yay Cersei' when she blew up the Sept. But I'm sure there were plenty who screamed 'yay Dany' when she torched Vaes Dothrak. It's literally the same story yet one is framed as good and the other is not.

Are you serious? Cersei killed hundreds of innocent people, including her uncle and her son's fiancée, etc. when Daenerys burned half a dozen of moronic Dothraki leaders who wanted to rape her to death… your comparison makes zero sense, it's bordering ridiculous…

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36 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Are you serious? Cersei killed hundreds of innocent people, including her uncle and her son's fiancée, etc. when Daenerys burned half a dozen of moronic Dothraki leaders who wanted to rape her to death… your comparison makes zero sense, it's bordering ridiculous…

The way it is written. What Daenerys did in this place was frightening. No one right in her mind could do that. But she did this to despicable men. She even topped them in ruthlessness. She was more frightening than them. But we can always compare to Cersei or Ramsay. Ok, she is not as bad as them. So fine with it.

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On 2/20/2019 at 5:50 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

Totally agree. Particularly on deluding herself. She started by wanting the IT. Then discovered that liberating slaves was a good excuse for getting it. Without understanding it herself. Without care for the consequences for the slaves. Without questioning if the slaves will be happier with a totalitarian queen than with a master. Without asking their leave. The slaves of Slaver's Bay have more need of her now than Westeros. After destroying everything and leaving before anything stable has been rebuilt.

GRRM is making a parallel between slavery and oaths. Particularly when taken by force, like against a threat of death. Concerning the NW, who works until their death? On a penalty of death if leaving? Who but slaves? Who is forced to do things against everything they believe right? Who but slaves?

 

Two major players in this game of thrones are Cersei and Dany.  What interesting stories they both have to tell .  They both are as high born as can be but with such different paths to this point.   Different types of odd relationships with their respective brother's during upbringings that were polar opposites.  One is the mother of dragons the other the mother of joffrey.  One is like Spartacus freeing slaves, albeit a hard and trying road to go down but the one that is morally high ground. Ending slavery is for the better of all humanity regardless of how it is challenged or resisted and not perfectly done.  She left dario and the second sons in charge I mean how long did you want her to stay there, she was always destined for westeros, she is bringing the fire to this song of fire and ice.  Cersei was given everything in life on a silver platter and you write off her behavior as necessary, but Dany is actually out there struggling to make her own way I admit leaving casualties in her wake.  I'm not saying Dany hasn't made some bad decisions (I lean more to the tarly debacle then when she was captured in Vaes Dothrak), I just think Cersei is actually the one who doesn't care for anyone but herself. Like when has she ever done anything to help the people of westeros?  She liked her brother and her kids and people that do things for her.  I can almost get on board with her love for her kids or whatever but if she really loved her son she would have taught him some discipline and responsibility but instead she taught him to look down on everyone and be mean like her.  

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5 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Are you serious? Cersei killed hundreds of innocent people, including her uncle and her son's fiancée, etc. when Daenerys burned half a dozen of moronic Dothraki leaders who wanted to rape her to death… your comparison makes zero sense, it's bordering ridiculous…

Of course I'm serious. It's all about cause and effect. Motivations. Both Cersei and Dany were responsible for being in a 'kill or be killed' situation. Cersei helped the High Sparrow get to power which ultimately lead to her blowing up the Sept. Dany invaded cities without a plan which lead to resistance on the part of the former 'rulers', which spawned the Sons of the Harpy which lead to her being surrounded which lead to Drogon coming to get her and dropping her off in the middle of nowhere. They are both the cause for their dire situations.

Cersei blew up the religious building in King's Landing to both save her life and gain power by eliminating her competition and to take the throne.  Dany blew up the religious building in Vaes Dothrak to save her life and to gain power over the Dothraki to get an army to take a throne. It's literally the same situation when looked at in terms of cause & effect and their motivations. Your 'counter argument' isn't even an argument as your base yours on the premise of the value of the dead people. That's not the topic.

I don't see why it matters that the Dothraki wanted to rape her. It's not like all the people in the Sept were innocent or did we forget the torture by the Sparrow's minions for example? And we know Lannisters and Tyrells aren't exactly squeaky clean. But they are not the point. Dany and Cersei are.

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6 hours ago, Mystical said:

Of course I'm serious. It's all about cause and effect. Motivations. Both Cersei and Dany were responsible for being in a 'kill or be killed' situation. Cersei helped the High Sparrow get to power which ultimately lead to her blowing up the Sept. Dany invaded cities without a plan which lead to resistance on the part of the former 'rulers', which spawned the Sons of the Harpy which lead to her being surrounded which lead to Drogon coming to get her and dropping her off in the middle of nowhere. They are both the cause for their dire situations.

Cersei blew up the religious building in King's Landing to both save her life and gain power by eliminating her competition and to take the throne.  Dany blew up the religious building in Vaes Dothrak to save her life and to gain power over the Dothraki to get an army to take a throne. It's literally the same situation when looked at in terms of cause & effect and their motivations. Your 'counter argument' isn't even an argument as your base yours on the premise of the value of the dead people. That's not the topic.

I don't see why it matters that the Dothraki wanted to rape her. It's not like all the people in the Sept were innocent or did we forget the torture by the Sparrow's minions for example? And we know Lannisters and Tyrells aren't exactly squeaky clean. But they are not the point. Dany and Cersei are.

I think we may just have to agree to disagree about cersei and dany, but I suppose ill give it another try.  She invaded cities with the plan of ending the terrible practice of slavery that had been ingrained in the culture over generations. There was obvious resistance from all parties (especially the slavers or sons of harpy) because, as history in real life shows, ending slavery is a difficult task.  There is gonna be kickback and challenges, it is not easy to change any socioeconomic norms established in culture.  But to me it is better to have tried to fix something even if you can't do a perfect job then to let the slavery keep going or even trade with the slavers.

On another note Dany is fire and blood, some sort of magic, the Vaes Dothrak deal was a part of her character that to me makes her the most badass. The unburnt mother of dragons.  Lets not forget the genre this is science fiction.  Cersei blowing up the Sept is mad king AF. Cersei family ousted Dany crazy dad, and for good reason although they did it sneaky, pretty much a big reason was Aerys love of wildfire and cruelty of which Cersei seems to grow fonder and fonder of as the seasons progress.  Tyrion used the wildfire in a situation of necessity, Cersei blew people up because they wanted to hold her accountable.  

Few know how it will play out in season 8. Can't wait to join the club!!  :-)

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2 hours ago, Staenerys Stargaryen said:

She invaded cities with the plan of ending the terrible practice of slavery that had been ingrained in the culture over generations. There was obvious resistance from all parties (especially the slavers or sons of harpy) because, as history in real life shows, ending slavery is a difficult task.  There is gonna be kickback and challenges, it is not easy to change any socioeconomic norms established in culture.  But to me it is better to have tried to fix something even if you can't do a perfect job then to let the slavery keep going or even trade with the slavers.

Yes, because it made Dany feel good and righteous and because she knew it would be her way in and guarantee loyal followers after. Check human history. Humans have done this before, freeing slaves under the guise of being the good guy when in actuality they were anything but. No one who actually cared about the slaves would have gone about it the way Dany did. Because anyone with even two working brain cells knows that you can't achieve change over night. She freed the slaves and subjected them to famine, disease and war. Does that sound like an improvement? They are free and that's great. But they have gained nothing else. What she needed was a plan BEFORE she sacked the cities. How to stabilize the economy, how to replace the current system of economy aka slavery, a firm code on judgement/trials/law. But she went in with NO plan which shows how little she actually cared about anyone in the cities, slavers and slaves alike.

2 hours ago, Staenerys Stargaryen said:

On another note Dany is fire and blood, some sort of magic, the Vaes Dothrak deal was a part of her character that to me makes her the most badass. The unburnt mother of dragons.

You are proving my point for me. How it's supposed to be viewed as 'badass' when one character does it but evil with another. It doesn't make her badass (largely because she has fire proof cheat activated) just like burning Mirra Maz Dur (sp?) was no hero or 'yay' moment. She killed the Khals for the Iron Throne. If you yay at that you should yay at Cersei for the same thing. Same as people who don't see anything wrong with Arya being a full blown psycho who murders without knowing as to whether the people she kills are actually guilty or not (Frey mass poisoning) or threatening to skin her own sister. She's badass so it's fine to cheer her on even when it looks like she could be Ramsey in the making.

2 hours ago, Staenerys Stargaryen said:

Cersei family ousted Dany crazy dad, and for good reason although they did it sneaky, pretty much a big reason was Aerys love of wildfire and cruelty of which Cersei seems to grow fonder and fonder of as the seasons progress.  Tyrion used the wildfire in a situation of necessity, Cersei blew people up because they wanted to hold her accountable.

I see no difference between Wildfire and Dragonfire. Both kills people. How many Lannister soldiers died when Dany used Drogon? Those soldiers were no different than the ones Arya came across. You know, perfectly normal guys who would rather be with their families than be conscripted into a war. They don't have a choice yet they were burned and slaughtered. Why bother with such a scene (the Ed Shereen one) if we aren't supposed to take something away from it? Like, killing is bad. War is bad. Most of these soldiers are just regular folk who are nothing but sacrificial lambs to the higher lords and their Game of Thrones. And that includes Dany because her goal is the same as everyone else who play the game. So much for breaking the wheel.

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19 hours ago, Staenerys Stargaryen said:

Cersei was given everything in life on a silver platter and you write off her behavior as necessary,

She was subject to a trial she would lose. To stay in power, she had not much choice. I didn't say she cared more for others than Daenerys. I say she cared for no one but herself. Not for her brother, not for her children. All were toys and instruments for her getting into power. At 12 she killed a girl wanting to marry Jaime.

I'm fine with ending slavery. But Daenerys is replacing one slavery by another, by expecting oaths under threat of death.

8 hours ago, Mystical said:

She freed the slaves and subjected them to famine, disease and war. Does that sound like an improvement? They are free and that's great. But they have gained nothing else. What she needed was a plan BEFORE she sacked the cities. How to stabilize the economy, how to replace the current system of economy aka slavery, a firm code on judgement/trials/law. But she went in with NO plan which shows how little she actually cared about anyone in the cities, slavers and slaves alike.

I suppose Mystical is here referring to books' Astapor. After freeing the town, she left former slaves to rule it. Like Daario in the show. The slaves became worse slavers than their former masters. The unwise masters I would say. Now Salver's Bay is enduring a plague worst than the Middle Ages' Black Death. The Pale Mare. Obviously in reference to Daenerys. Astapor is deserted, everyone dead or fled or slave elsewhere. Last news Meereen was bombarded by diseased corpses. And the plague in every army camp.

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Why don't we ask tommen how awesome his mother is?

I am in utter disbelief that you think Cersei blowing up the Sept instead of going to trial for a bunch of things she definitely did and Dany using fire to free herself from the Dothraki are the same thing.  You are removing the context and claim the similarities make it the same.  I am convinced you feel this way and will not budge so again I think our best plan here is to agree to disagree.

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42 minutes ago, Staenerys Stargaryen said:

Why don't we ask tommen how awesome his mother is?

I am in utter disbelief that you think Cersei blowing up the Sept instead of going to trial for a bunch of things she definitely did and Dany using fire to free herself from the Dothraki are the same thing.  You are removing the context and claim the similarities make it the same.  I am convinced you feel this way and will not budge so again I think our best plan here is to agree to disagree.

I said Cersei didn't care for her children. Or only when it was convenient for her. Daenerys is not Cersei. But yes, they are both playing the game of thrones. Both ruthless. And we have yet to see where one will stop.

BTW the Khal were ready to give her to the dosh khaleen. But it's her who taunt them:

Quote

He [Khal Drogo] promised to kill the men in their iron suits and tear down their stone houses. He swore to me before the Mother of Mountains... You are small men. None of you are fit to lead the Dothraki.

The Dothrakis are the worst lot. Who is the worst guy, at this time, in this room?

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