US Politics: The Accountability Problem

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

$15 an hour works out to $30K a year, approximately.  I would assume since this is viewed as the minimum 'living wage' in many circles, that any guaranteed income would have to be at least this amount. 

Except, we talking about minimum wage for DOING WORK, not being paid NOT TO DO WORK.

Why are you changing the subject? Think I wouldn't notice?

[OldGimletEye]

I'd hope that certain sorts of people would understand that in a monopsony model of the labor market, raising wages can actually increase employment participation.

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Except, we talking about minimum wage for DOING WORK, not being paid NOT TO DO WORK.

Why are you changing the subject? Think I wouldn't notice?

I thought we were talking about guaranteed income.  Why, if someone believes in guaranteed income would not the minimum be what the stated minimum is said to be in order to afford the basic essentials, would a guaranteed be lower than that?  I

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

I thought we were talking about guaranteed income.  Why, if someone believes in guaranteed income would not the minimum be what the stated minimum is said to be in order to afford the basic essentials, would a guaranteed be lower than that?  I

I thought we were talking about a guaranteed income too, until you brought up the minimum wage thing, which is a different issue.

But, anyway, I've already told you how I feel about UBI at this time. Its something to think about the future, in case AI tech renders most human labor obsolete. It's not something I'd actively pursue at this time.

[Ormond]

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I thought we were talking about guaranteed income.  Why, if someone believes in guaranteed income would not the minimum be what the stated minimum is said to be in order to afford the basic essentials, would a guaranteed be lower than that?  I

Since the "basic essentials" would include transportation and other costs involved in having a job itself, it would seem to me that a "basic guaranteed income" could be a least a small amount lower than minimum wage income. 

[Altherion]

10 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

First level of reality: people "unwilling to work" are a minority, and they barely cost anything.

Sure, but this is only true so long as this lifestyle isn't viable. If they're given enough money to support themselves, there will be a whole lot more of them.

18 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Third level of reality: taxes are the price of civilization.

It depends on how they're spent. In many instances, they amount to a means for parasites to suck the life from the host society thereby weakening it. For example, New York City has a budget of roughly $90B (note that this is distinct from NY State's budget which is even larger and collects from the same citizens). Since its population is roughly 9 million people, this amounts to $10K per person for the city alone. Despite this, the subway is falling apart, the streets are in poor repair, most public schools range from awful to mediocre (there are a few exceptions which the city is unsuccessfully trying to drag down to the general level) and, more generally, nearly every service the city provides is both overpriced and inadequate.

[Zorral]

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Well for one I'm not sure where you got 30K at, in so far as somebody is suggesting that we set a universal basic income at 30K.

But yeah, sure, if you get 30K as a UBI, you're probably not going to take some shit job for that much. You might however look for something more to your liking or with better compensation or both.

And for it is worth, I'm really not that high on the UBI at this time. For me it's something to be put on the back burner, in the event AI really takes off, leaving many people unemployed.

You would be working because not even a single person can live on $30,000 a year, at least not in this part of the world. $30,000 wouldn't even pay rent annually on most apartments -- and we're not talking nice apartments or spacious ones either. But that would help enormously in getting qualified for better paying work, not have to scramble for that first $30,000.

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Zorral said:

You would be working because not even a single person can live on $30,000 a year, at least not in this part of the world. $30,000 wouldn't even pay rent annually on most apartments -- and we're not talking nice apartments or spacious ones either. But that would help enormously in getting qualified for better paying work, not have to scramble for that first $30,000.

Well of course, yes, it depends on where you live. 30K isn't the same in San Francisco as it is Pig's Knuckle Arkansas.

[Cas Stark]

2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

You would be working because not even a single person can live on $30,000 a year, at least not in this part of the world. $30,000 wouldn't even pay rent annually on most apartments -- and we're not talking nice apartments or spacious ones either. But that would help enormously in getting qualified for better paying work, not have to scramble for that first $30,000.

Half the people in the U.S. make $30K a year. 

[OldGimletEye]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Half the people in the U.S. make $30K a year. 

Well that's fine to point that out. But,, @Zorral's point still stands. 30K in New York is a hell of a lot different than it is in other places.

[Cas Stark]

1 minute ago, OldGimletEye said:

Well that's fine to point that out. But,, @Zorral's point still stands. 30K in New York is a hell of a lot different than it is in other places.

That kind of begs the question then, that maybe the $15 minimum wage applied across the U.S. might be a bad and destabilizing idea, that creates more harm than good.  But, don't worry, I'm not getting into a debate about the alleged benefits of a high minimum wage.  

[OldGimletEye]

4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That kind of begs the question then, that maybe the $15 minimum wage applied across the U.S. might be a bad and destabilizing idea, that creates more harm than good.  

I don't necessarily disagree with this. Sure some places could probably do a 15 minimum wage just fine. Others perhaps not so much. It depends highly on the time frame that it is to be implemented.

I'm pretty sure though that somewhere between 12-13 dollars would be okay.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

2 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

Wow, it really looks like AOC pisses conservatives off more than any politician since Obama. I wonder why that is? We did not see this level of vitriol over Sanders, who is also a Democratic-Socialist.

I think Sanders always seemed a long shot, and he didn't command popularity until recently--though he's been around a long time. AOC has stormed onto the scene, she's young, and seems to represent the fears of the right that young, socialist (and dumb! Misinformed!) members of U.S. society are about to turn the whole thing over. I don't know if this is true or not.

Plus, I hate mentioning this, but she's pretty, and I do think this is confusing for conservatives who look at attractive women all day on Fox News. Their wires are getting crossed. I'm talking about the men I see complaining about her on my Facebook feed, of course.

 

Edit: Though I agree with your point. My point is really tangential.

[Rippounet]

3 minutes ago, Altherion said:

Sure, but this is only true so long as this lifestyle isn't viable. If they're given enough money to support themselves, there will be a whole lot more of them.

Hang on. Like Cas Stark you seem to assume that tons of people will "choose" not to work if they can.
But the real problem we have is that in the near future there won't be enough jobs for everyone anyway, and low-skilled jobs especially will be hit hard. So the reality is not that people will "choose" not to work, it's that most of them will be unemployed in the first place.

3 minutes ago, Altherion said:

It depends on how they're spent. In many instances, they amount to a means for parasites to suck the life from the host society thereby weakening it.

Oh, I agree with that. Like, 686 billion dollars for the US military? According to my calculator, if that was cut down by half, a 30k UBI could be provided to about 11 million people.

Of course, you might argue that the military-industrial complex provides jobs, technology and geopolitical influence. To which I'd answer that 11 million poor people would no doubt spend their "free" money, thus helping the economy as well. And again, since I'm not a conservative, I think most of those 11 million would actually use their time to be productive members of society. Also, I'm still leaving 343 billion $ for the US military, which ain't bad, since it would *still* be the largest military budget in the world.

And what's with you and New York anyway? Even if you're correct and public services in NY being overpriced, what is that supposed to demonstrate exactly? Pretty much everything is overpriced in the US, and the answer to that problem is probably not lower taxes and less regulations...

[Centrist Simon Steele]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

Indeed. As a fellow teacher I earn quite less than you do, but the cost of living in Europe is all in all significantly lower than in the US. And I live in Paris with a child...
Moreover from what I understand 39,000 is actually below the average salary in the US, while my salary is slightly above the French average.

When I hear teachers in America make an average of 60,000, I think "must be another state." I do believe they factor things into that number outside of your salary. I make 39,000 a year, but I might fall under a higher average when they factor in benefits, like health insurance. So out of my roughly 3200 a month salary, despite getting insurance, I'm still paying 500 out of that check for insurance. Then there's taxes, retirement, and all the rest. I get about 2200 a month. I live in affordable housing where I live, which is government subsidized housing that helps people like me live in a community with housing prices. My monthly rent, even subsidized, is 1167.00. About fifty percent of my net. I have to consistently work overloads and summer classes and save my (shrinking) tax refunds, and apply these extra sources of income in monthly increments to my monthly salary.

I think my state has one of the lowest average teacher salaries in the country, but still, I have a master's degree, I've been in the profession for 10 years, and if I moved (which I can't due to custody arrangement) to a bigger city, I could probably make about ten thousand more a year. But then, cost of living would be higher, or I would have to commute. Etc.

I will probably never own a home, and if, IF!, the income repayment program for student loans isn't axed by Republicans, I will have my massive loan debt forgiven in six years. But given the amount of money the government will have to forgive, I will be hit with a massive tax that year I achieve debt freedom, and in America, you better pay those taxes or you go to prison. 

At this point, I'm just hoping that I'll still be working when old age takes me, and I'll have enough life insurance to pay off the rest of my debt load. Maybe overly cynical, but that's how it feels right now. Crushing.

[DMC]

So did anyone see this poll on whether Northam should resign or not?  47% want him gone and 47% think he should stay.  Other notables:  42% of GOP think he should stay as do 58% of African Americans, and 60% think AG Mark Herring should stay.  Looks increasingly likely Fairfax will be the only casualty of this mess (the poll was conducted before the second allegation came out on Friday), which is just an unbelievable turnaround for Northam in a week.  He's a really lucky guy.

[Cas Stark]

13 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

snippe

And what's with you and New York anyway? Even if you're correct and public services in NY being overpriced, what is that supposed to demonstrate exactly? Pretty much everything is overpriced in the US, and the answer to that problem is probably not lower taxes and less regulations...

As someone who also lives in the NYC area, it gives one a sense that the money is flagrantly wasted, that billions of taxpayer dollars are spent every year, and yet, we don't see improvement, but the opposite, which suggests to some that the problem isn't a lack of money but other systemic problems related to corruption and bureaucracy.  Indeed, I see this evidenced all around by the fact that brand new construction projects start falling apart within 5 years or less.

[OldGimletEye]

On minimum wage:

1. While I do think 15 dollars an hour might not be such a good idea for the whole country, I do think the federal minimum wage does need to be raised.

2. My problem with conservatives over minimum wage laws is they basically rule it out on the grounds that the labor market functions like a purely competitive model that you see in econ 101 textbooks. That is a highly dubious proposition as the labor market is shot through with informational problems.

3. Also beside whether monopsony power exist, whether minimum wage law laws will decrease employment like depends on how one thinks about general equilibrium.

[TrueMetis]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Eh, this is why I say that the GOP is passively destructive [doing nothing], while progressives are actively destructive [policies to bring us up to the standard of living from 1820].  My friend's teenager wants to live in a world with no petroleum based products, when told that would eliminate the i-phone: confusion.  

I wonder if that's because the teenager knows that there are ways to get hydrocarbon based products without petroleum and he realizes you're full of shit? Like what do you think goes into an iPhone that is only possible through petroleum based products?

[Zorral]

4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

As someone who also lives in the NYC area, it gives one a sense that the money is flagrantly wasted, that billions of taxpayer dollars are spent every year, and yet, we don't see improvement, but the opposite, which suggests to some that the problem isn't a lack of money but other systemic problems related to corruption and bureaucracy.

It is likely more caused by the flagrantly obscenely wealthy corporations and those who own them and their shares, which take and take and take from NYC's infrastructure and give nothing back, including taxes -- amazilla getting THREE BILLION in tax incentives and rebates??????? WTF?????????????  I've listened often to Cuomo and de Blasio blather angrily about why this is a good idea and not single word they utter in explanation makes any sense or even carries meaning.  It's just word salad. Politico word salad.

Right now, every walk in my neighborhood reveals yet another store closed and more vacant store fronts and entire buildings vacant. The owners do not have to pay property taxes on those vacant properties via all sorts of work around exemptions.  Just imagine how things in NYC would change if THAT changed.  Yet no one in city government will even allow the idea to be broached.

Beyond this into the bigger and bigger picture: we've been carrying on wars non-stop for decades now, very very very VERY expensive wars -- and there is where all these corps in many different ways are working out corruption and waste to fill their already bloated coffers.  Yet every year the military budget (though not the pay and benefits of the human beings involved) gets bigger, while nothing ever changes except that more and more funds are siphoned away and / or cut from essential goods, services and infrastructure in every area from highway and bridge repairs, new airports and schools and hospitals (fewer hospitals all the time!), education and medical programs -- to pay for this military pig trough for big biz.