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The Night’s Watch and the Gift(s) don’t make sense


DominusNovus

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I’ve mentioned long long ago how the numbers of the Night’s Watch don’t make sense. I started thinking about the Gifts (both Brandon’s and New) and they make it mean even less sense. Consider that the Gifts, combined, are basically the size of Pennsylvania. And they seem to be even more sparsely settled than the rest of the North. Plus, there’s 16 castles that nobody is using (and likely scattered abandoned holdfasts in the Gift itself, like Queenscrown). Add in that the Night’s Watch leadership is determined by an open election.

Forget the vows and less than pleasant land, thats a pretty sweet deal for a feudal society. Think of medieval monastic orders, which had similar vows and regularly established themselves on marginal lands (the Cistercians, especially). They never lacked for recruits. And the NW is far more tolerant of whoring around than most monastic orders were.

First, second sons and the like (your Waymar’s) should ne heading up there, just for the opportunity to be put in charge of something. A second son or bastard (of which Westeros should have plenty) of noble blood could be sent up there by their noble fathers to make a name for themselves, even if that name is just ruling over one of the wall castles. That should be appealing enough to plenty. Plus, there certainly had to be even more opportunities to set up new holdfasts (or occupy abandoned ones) in the Gift. It seems the NW doesn’t really rely on the Gift for levies, which should be a really sweet deal: You can rule over a holdfast, and you’re sworn to a liege that won’t ask you for men in time of war (not to mention that they don’t really need them), just taxes. Its basically bastard feudalism. You’ll still want to have a retinue of your own, because some raids will happen. But you can be pretty sure that you’ll almost never have to deal with a large war or anything of that sort. Back to the Watch itself, its also an institution that you could take over fairly easily: when their numbers are low, send enough loyal men off with your third favorite son, and wait for the LC to die. Your men can tip the election in your son’s favor. Thats a point of prestige, right there  “My son is the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch.”

Yes, life in the North can suck due to the climate. Yes, if you want to build your dynasty, the vows themselves are pretty rough (but you can just set yourself up in the Gift instead). It still doesn’t add up.

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I assume that Starks would not like anybody creating new houses in their backyard in the area that they had a potential claim. Or I am surprised that house Stark had not taken new gift back after last dragon died. After all that area has became useless for anybody and they should have surplus of people and especially potential nobles who would want to "own" land.

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The Gifts were populated and valuable, a long, long time ago. Most of the people that lived in these areas moved off to other, more fortified areas of the North. The rest were killed or carried off by Wildlings in any number of raids that have occurred throughout the history of the Wall and the Watch.

As to the current lack of volunteers, this has not always been the case. At one time, the Night's Watch had more than enough to man each and every castle on the Wall. Further, they had enough lords and knights to warrant separate eating halls (see the Shield Hall at Castle Black description).

All of your points are valid, but I see all of this as GRRM's "stark black-and-white photo" of tragic irony. This group that was originally formed to be last defense against some horrible threat but no one remembers, except the North (and those that still follow the Old Gods) and no one respects the institution of the Watch any longer. They dont send their fine sons to the Wall - they send their criminals. 

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The one thing that does not make sense is that Westeros seems to have had a population decline over the years.  This is especially apparent in the North and in the watch. 

Maybe the population shifted to the cities and to warmer climates like in the Reach.  My guess is that once the Kingdoms were united, northerners gravitated towards the south.  

We are told that Ned and Benjen had talked about repopulating the Gift, by luring people with the promise of free land, but between the climate and the wildings, that is a hard sell.  

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On 2/7/2019 at 3:38 PM, DominusNovus said:

I’ve mentioned long long ago how the numbers of the Night’s Watch don’t make sense. I started thinking about the Gifts (both Brandon’s and New) and they make it mean even less sense. Consider that the Gifts, combined, are basically the size of Pennsylvania. And they seem to be even more sparsely settled than the rest of the North. Plus, there’s 16 castles that nobody is using (and likely scattered abandoned holdfasts in the Gift itself, like Queenscrown). Add in that the Night’s Watch leadership is determined by an open election.

Forget the vows and less than pleasant land, thats a pretty sweet deal for a feudal society. Think of medieval monastic orders, which had similar vows and regularly established themselves on marginal lands (the Cistercians, especially). They never lacked for recruits. And the NW is far more tolerant of whoring around than most monastic orders were.

First, second sons and the like (your Waymar’s) should ne heading up there, just for the opportunity to be put in charge of something. A second son or bastard (of which Westeros should have plenty) of noble blood could be sent up there by their noble fathers to make a name for themselves, even if that name is just ruling over one of the wall castles. That should be appealing enough to plenty. Plus, there certainly had to be even more opportunities to set up new holdfasts (or occupy abandoned ones) in the Gift. It seems the NW doesn’t really rely on the Gift for levies, which should be a really sweet deal: You can rule over a holdfast, and you’re sworn to a liege that won’t ask you for men in time of war (not to mention that they don’t really need them), just taxes. Its basically bastard feudalism. You’ll still want to have a retinue of your own, because some raids will happen. But you can be pretty sure that you’ll almost never have to deal with a large war or anything of that sort. Back to the Watch itself, its also an institution that you could take over fairly easily: when their numbers are low, send enough loyal men off with your third favorite son, and wait for the LC to die. Your men can tip the election in your son’s favor. Thats a point of prestige, right there  “My son is the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch.”

Yes, life in the North can suck due to the climate. Yes, if you want to build your dynasty, the vows themselves are pretty rough (but you can just set yourself up in the Gift instead). It still doesn’t add up.

I agree 100%. It does not make any sense at all. The only thing I can come up with is that the reasons for founding the NW are so so far back in history that nobody really takes it seriously anymore.

Am I correct in thinking the New Gift is controlled by the NW and House Stark, perhaps nobody wants to be in between the two if an argument ensued?

Otherwise second and third sons would be going north in droves.

I think there is often so much going on south of the wall that little time is spent thinking of anything north of Winterfell.

Perhaps the recruitment of criminals has tarnished the reputation of the NW, and it has had the effect of lessening the attraction of setting up shop in either of the Gifts?

Good observation.

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On 2/7/2019 at 2:38 PM, DominusNovus said:

First, second sons and the like (your Waymar’s) should ne heading up there, just for the opportunity to be put in charge of something. A second son or bastard (of which Westeros should have plenty) of noble blood could be sent up there by their noble fathers to make a name for themselves, even if that name is just ruling over one of the wall castles. That should be appealing enough to plenty. Plus, there certainly had to be even more opportunities to set up new holdfasts (or occupy abandoned ones) in the Gift. It seems the NW doesn’t really rely on the Gift for levies, which should be a really sweet deal: You can rule over a holdfast, and you’re sworn to a liege that won’t ask you for men in time of war (not to mention that they don’t really need them), just taxes. Its basically bastard feudalism. You’ll still want to have a retinue of your own, because some raids will happen. But you can be pretty sure that you’ll almost never have to deal with a large war or anything of that sort. Back to the Watch itself, its also an institution that you could take over fairly easily: when their numbers are low, send enough loyal men off with your third favorite son, and wait for the LC to die. Your men can tip the election in your son’s favor. Thats a point of prestige, right there  “My son is the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch.”

You make a compelling argument, but yes, "you will want to have a retinue of your own, because some raids will happen".  

With all the wars and disputes chronicled in the canon, where are these retinues of men supposed to come from in a place that "can suck due to climate".  Presumably, in my point of view, from the peasants.  Who else?  Yes, there are second and third sons, bastards of lords, but if there is no one to support them.....

Quote

A gloomy look passed across the young knight's ravaged face. "A Frey girl, and not of my choosing. She is not even maiden. A widow, of Darry blood. My father says that will help me with the peasants, but the peasants are all dead."--A Feast for Crows - Cersei II

Due to wars and squabbles between lords, as I mentioned. 

Legion of quotes can be had about characters from south of the neck's disdain of the North.  Thus, why would any peasant want to serve in a place that "sucks due to the climate".  

Quote

"Why should I wager my feet for the chance to sweat in Winterfell in place of Harrenhal? You know old Ben Blackthumb? He came here as a boy. Smithed for Lady Whent and her father before her and his father before him, and even for Lord Lothston who held Harrenhal before the Whents. Now he smiths for Lord Tywin, and you know what he says? A sword's a sword, a helm's a helm, and if you reach in the fire you get burned, no matter who you're serving. Lucan's a fair enough master. I'll stay here."--A Clash of Kings - Arya IX

I know it's different context, but again I ask the same question.  

Thus, there wouldn't be enough soldiers for a retinue, and all the raids would further detract them from wanting to be there.

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The places nearest the Wall got raided so much the smallfolk moved south, into the mountains or onto the Umber lands east of the kingsroad. The Greatjon's people get raided too, but not so much as the people who used to live in the Gift."--A Storm of Swords - Bran III

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"Harma and the Bag of Bones don't come raiding for fish and apples. They steal swords and axes. Spices, silks, and furs. They grab every coin and ring and jeweled cup they can find, casks of wine in summer and casks of beef in winter, and they take women in any season and carry them off beyond the Wall."--A Storm of Swords - Jon V

*Thus, no retinues, peasants to be had, and no support......What point of anyone setting up in the gift in a castle/hold-fast with nothing.   

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My assumption has been that during its heyday(its mentioned that Black Harens brother was LC during Aegons conquest and had 10k swords at his command, and this is most likely not the Apex of the Watchs power), the watch and the Gift functioned much like you described, it is only very recently that it has fallen into its current state 

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@Wolf of the Steppes

Some pretty good quotes there, but I’ll clarify that I’m not suggesting this necessarily makes sense around 300 AC, just overall. Basically, the textual indications for a decline of the NW just don’t make much sense to me.

Either the Wildlings are enough of a threat that the Lords of Westeros would support the NW more vigorously, or they’re weak enough that, in most years, there should be plenty of knightly/masterly ranked soldiers that would trade the northern climate and the occasional wildling raid for the freedom from military duty owed to a liege lord and not having to worry about getting involved in some dynastic conflict or foreign adventure.

And its not just the lack of settlement in the Gift that doesn’t make sense to me. Well, just look at Queenscrown, a very defensible holdfast, particularly against wildling raids. We know the Gift isn’t completely depopulated, but places like Queenscrown should be the last places abandoned. It should be full of Gift-dwellers who abandoned their farms to huddle around a strongpoint like that.

And the NW itself being undermanned to such an absurd degree doesn’t add up in my head. We know that there’s plenty of men in Westeros who don’t balk at vows of celibacy (we never hear of a shortage of Maesters, or candidates for Kingsguard, or Septons and Holy Brothers) - especially ones that are only nominally enforced. It really comes down to “don’t get married, and don’t knowingly father a bastard.” You just know that Mole’s town is probably crawling with bastards born of the NW, but who have no idea who their father is. That all adds up to a pretty decent gig.

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On 2/7/2019 at 12:38 PM, DominusNovus said:

I’ve mentioned long long ago how the numbers of the Night’s Watch don’t make sense.

Well, it's a good thing that Dragons, fire magic, networked magic god trees, not elves, ice demons and years long season's do, because otherwise it would be totes weird :rofl:

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20 minutes ago, DominusNovus said:

Some pretty good quotes there, but I’ll clarify that I’m not suggesting this necessarily makes sense around 300 AC, just overall. Basically, the textual indications for a decline of the NW just don’t make much sense to me.

Thanks.  Some pretty good quotes, but the textual indications don't make sense?  Didn't you just contradict yourself?  

If those "textural Indications" don't make sense, they're worthless quotes.  

A decline of people in the gift and NW men IMO would certainly be linked.  Then you have those inconvenient vows, as Tyrion described them.

Yes, you made a good point about there not being a dearth of maesters, septons, and to a lesser degree Kingsguard and Holy Brothers.  However, none of those orders require you to freeze your balls off.

So what is the real point here?-- That if the NW was strong and men plentiful, as it clearly had to be considering all of the castles along the wall and the 2 gifts, why wouldn't it be now?  If that is the point, then I'll go ahead and answer you.  Because it's not important to anyone south of the neck.  For that matter the Night's Watch itself has forgotten it's purpose.  Why would anyone care!

Quote

We ought to have known. We ought to have remembered. The Long Night has come before. Oh, eight thousand years is a good while, to be sure … yet if the Night's Watch does not remember, who will?"--A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII

I don't mean to be combative, and your arguments aren't without some merit, but I think there is plenty of text for this issue to make sense.  

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48 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Well, it's a good thing that Dragons, fire magic, networked magic god trees, not elves, ice demons and years long season's do, because otherwise it would be totes weird :rofl:

You know very well that GRRM has tried to make a relatively grounded world for the characters to inhabit, and that magic has not been a key part of life in Westeros for a century and a half (simply regarding the dragons) or far far far longer, when you consider the other aspects. The seasons are the only 'magical' thing that people interact with until the time of the books. I'm not discussing matters of magic, I'm discussing matters of demographics.

11 minutes ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

Thanks.  Some pretty good quotes, but the textual indications don't make sense?  Didn't you just contradict yourself?  

If those "textural Indications" don't make sense, they're worthless quotes.  

A decline of people in the gift and NW men IMO would certainly be linked.  Then you have those inconvenient vows, as Tyrion described them.

Yes, you made a good point about there not being a dearth of maesters, septons, and to a lesser degree Kingsguard and Holy Brothers.  However, none of those orders require you to freeze your balls off.

So what is the real point here?-- That if the NW was strong and men plentiful, as it clearly had to be considering all of the castles along the wall and the 2 gifts, why wouldn't it be now?  If that is the point, then I'll go ahead and answer you.  Because it's not important to anyone south of the neck.  For that matter the Night's Watch itself has forgotten it's purpose.  Why would anyone care!

I don't mean to be combative, and your arguments aren't without some merit, but I think there is plenty of text for this issue to make sense.  

I think I could have phrased my comment a little more clearly. I didn't mean the textual evidence you provided didn't make sense. I was referring to the text as a whole, presenting the overall decline over the centuries. Your quotes regarding the situation on the ground around 300 AC demonstrate why people aren't particularly interested in uprooting themselves right then and there very well. Not to mention that the idea of 'head up north with a band of followers and you could get a free castle or holdfast' is less appealing when you also have the alternative of waiting down south for some castle or holdfast to free up after its occupants die in one of the wars going on.

Anyway, I think the point of 'not important south of the Neck' really isn't the issue. Its not a matter 'We should send our second sons up to the Wall to protect the realm,' I agree. But it is a useful place to send extra sons and bastards (especially ambitious ones - imagine how much better off House Bolton would be if Ramsay got sent to the Wall), and even just the North itself should be able to find plenty of people who would look at the terms of either the Watch itself, or being beholden to them living on the Gift, and find those terms pretty attractive. We see so often how many people resent the idea of their families and friends being called up to march on some war or another, surely there must be a reasonable percentage of people who would say "we already live in a cold climate anyway, why not just move a few leagues further north and live somewhere that our overlord won't ask anything more from us than bushels of crops?"

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24 minutes ago, DominusNovus said:

You know very well that GRRM has tried to make a relatively grounded world for the characters to inhabit, 

and how many 8000 year old ruling dynasties can you name :D

27 minutes ago, DominusNovus said:

 and that magic has not been a key part of life in Westeros for a century and a half (simply regarding the dragons) or far far far longer, when you consider the other aspects.

except for the wall, the pyromancer's guild, weirwoods with carved faces, valyrian steel swords and the whole city of Asshai

33 minutes ago, DominusNovus said:

The seasons are the only 'magical' thing that people interact with until the time of the books. I'm not discussing matters of magic, I'm discussing matters of demographics.

why are weird demographics bothersome in the shadow of a 300 mile long 700 foot tall wall of ice and stone? 

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52 minutes ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

Yes, you made a good point about there not being a dearth of maesters, septons, and to a lesser degree Kingsguard and Holy Brothers.  However, none of those orders require you to freeze your balls off.

 

Not really true. Maesters and septons get sent where they are needed. Sometimes that means drawing the short straw and going north. Sometimes it means drawing the nub straw and going to the Wall.

 

55 minutes ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

For that matter the Night's Watch itself has forgotten it's purpose.  Why would anyone care!

 

I think therein lies the key. Humans are terrible at oversight, especially when there is no immediate danger perceived. Frankly, I'm more amazed that the NW managed to keep everyone's attention for so long at all. Most times an "existential threat" that hasn't raised its ugly head in a few generations is mostly forgotten, at least on the immediate problem scale. "That was our great-grandfather's war/problem/mess etc." At some point, the NW looks like the boy who cried wolf too many times.

Also, as we have seen, the perception of doing your duty for the realm by joining the NW has been tainted by the practice of using the Wall as punishment to clear out the dregs of society. What upright thinking and upstanding person would want to send their son(s) to the Westerosi equivalent of Botany Bay? No one was clamoring to send their scion to Australia for duty and honor (no offence Aussies, we luvs ya! :kiss:).

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38 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

and how many 8000 year old ruling dynasties can you name :D

except for the wall, the pyromancer's guild, weirwoods with carved faces, valyrian steel swords and the whole city of Asshai

why are weird demographics bothersome in the shadow of a 300 mile long 700 foot tall wall of ice and stone? 

I can name a 2600 year old dynasty, the Imperial House of Japan. Other than that, we haven't had writing for 8000 years, so that's not a fair comparison. And yes, the long dynasties do strain credulity, but thats an issue for another day. Those examples of magic are clearly not 'every day life.' People look at the Wall and don't see it as magic, they just see a giant block of ice and stone. They look at the Pyromancer's guild and see alchemists. They look at weirdwoods and see trees with carvings. They look at Valyrian steel and see excellent steel. And how many people from Westeros have ever been to Asshai? In short: the places were magic really is a going concern, the Westerosi don't have much contact with. And the places where it is, it is a subtle magic.

As to why this is all bothersome, its because I enjoy thinking about demographics and numbers and economics and such matters. Just like I'm certain there's some experts on medieval weaponry here who object to various weapon choices in the story, this is my thing.

30 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

Also, as we have seen, the perception of doing your duty for the realm by joining the NW has been tainted by the practice of using the Wall as punishment to clear out the dregs of society. What upright thinking and upstanding person would want to send their son(s) to the Westerosi equivalent of Botany Bay? No one was clamoring to send their scion to Australia for duty and honor (no offence Aussies, we luvs ya! :kiss:).

I'd like to push back by pointing out that the bastard son of the Lord Paramount of the North doesn't realize just what sort of men he'd be serving alongside on the Wall. If he doesn't realize that, there's got to be plenty of others that don't. Hell, he had a conversation with the First Ranger, who was trying to talk him out of joining, and that never came up.

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16 minutes ago, DominusNovus said:

I'd like to push back by pointing out that the bastard son of the Lord Paramount of the North doesn't realize just what sort of men he'd be serving alongside on the Wall. If he doesn't realize that, there's got to be plenty of others that don't. Hell, he had a conversation with the First Ranger, who was trying to talk him out of joining, and that never came up.

 

And the Royce's didn't seem to know (or care) either. I didn't (and wouldn't) claim that there aren't those in high places that wouldn't send their sons to the Wall for various reasons. We don't know why Waymar was there, but from his general attitude and demeanor, it seemed that he expected to rise high in the Watch. His family certainly equipped him well enough and he was a decent swordsman.

But we do see that the attitude in general toward duty in the NW, especially south of the Neck as noted, is not a favorable one. Randall Tarley sent Sam to the Wall to shame and humiliate him. He certainly knew who Sam's companions were going to be from then on. Those in the north are more likely to remember it as a duty, albeit an unfavorable one, where in the south it seems to be meted out as punishment.

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17 minutes ago, DominusNovus said:

I can name a 2600 year old dynasty, the Imperial House of Japan. Other than that, we haven't had writing for 8000 years, so that's not a fair comparison. 

It is fair and apt 

17 minutes ago, DominusNovus said:

 And yes, the long dynasties do strain credulity, but that's an issue for another day

It's not. It is along the same lines as what you were discussing. 

24 minutes ago, DominusNovus said:

 Those examples of magic are clearly not 'every day life.' People look at the Wall and don't see it as magic, they just see a giant block of ice and stone. They look at the Pyromancer's guild and see alchemists. They look at weirdwoods and see trees with carvings. They look at Valyrian steel and see excellent steel. And how many people from Westeros have ever been to Asshai? In short: the places were magic really is a going concern, the Westerosi don't have much contact with. And the places where it is, it is a subtle magic.

lol. your argument fails to hold water. demanding reality in a magical fantasy setting is a bit juvenile. 

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6 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

demanding reality in a magical fantasy setting is a bit juvenile. 

 

True, but we can demand that it follow its own rules. In instances like this I always remember what a creative writing instructor once said to our class:

"You can do anything you want, as long as it makes sense within the confines of the story. Water can run uphill in your world if you want it to, but it had better run uphill everywhere unless there is a damn good reason for it not to."

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1 hour ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

 

True, but we can demand that it follow its own rules. In instances like this I always remember what a creative writing instructor once said to our class:

"You can do anything you want, as long as it makes sense within the confines of the story. Water can run uphill in your world if you want it to, but it had better run uphill everywhere unless there is a damn good reason for it not to."

The world works just fine. The story is that a warrior order, that used to be renowned and command absolute respect and honor of a world it was created to protect is dwindling, having lost that respect, and honor and forgotten its true purpose just when the ancient enemy is was to protect against is rising. Yes, the details of the story make it very enjoyable but those details are supposed to forward a story. It has always seemed to me that if people can accept all of the other hyper-fantastic  elements of the story, like 8 to 10 thousand year old family dynasties, or networked god trees, or ladders made out of fire, the numbers of a warrior order seem small change. 

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1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It is fair and apt 

It's not. It is along the same lines as what you were discussing. 

lol. your argument fails to hold water. demanding reality in a magical fantasy setting is a bit juvenile. 

You’re trying to shift the discussion from a discussion of math to a discussion of magic, and working in insults for good measure. I don’t know why, since this fandom debates troop numbers and their plausibility all the time. You’re adding nothing to the conversation. I get that you view every discussion from a purely Doylist perspective and either cannot or refuse to discuss the material from any other, but it still adds nothing.

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