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Widowmaker 811

Dance of the Princelings

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Lucerys (5), Jace (6), and Joff (3) vs. Aemond (10)

I am loyal to Rhaenyra's side in the dance.  Whilst reading, I was secretly hoping her boys would put an end to Aemond.  I like Rhaenyra's three boys.  I do not blame them one bit for ganging up on Aemond.  Too bad they only took one eye.  He insulted them by calling them Strong.  To call them Strong is the equivalent of calling them bastards.  What a grave insult to boys of royal blood.  

Who do you side with in the dance of the princelings?  I know I am very biased because I don't like the Greens but just about everybody on this forum is biased towards their favorite characters/family/House.

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I feel like in this case most people are going to be biased towards liking the Blacks more, since the Blacks have either what seems to be genuinely better people, or more interesting people. I mean, the Blacks have Rhaenyra and her sons, Daemon and his daughters, and the Oakenfist, and they're just the ones who come to mind without looking up info on the wiki. Who did the Greens have that was remotely interesting.

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Only Jace understood the insult as such, and Luke only tried to help a brother who getting a good beating.

This entire episode is one of the more ludicrous episodes in the entire book. Children the ages of Rhaenyra's sons don't do what George is trying to sell us, especially not since Jace and Luke were not yet six and five but rather five and four (due to the fact that we know both of them were born late in the years of their birth, and Laenor's funeral didn't take place in the last month(s) of the year). He just wanted to cramp everything important in that fateful year 120 AC.

Has anybody ever seen a three-year-old challenging a ten-year-old as forcefully as Joffrey challenges Aemond in this story? A three-year-old at that who is pretty much a good boy during the Dance itself as a twelve-year-old until he feels his dragon is in mortal danger?

Arya-Joffrey-Mycah in AGoT is believable, the story about those children is not. Either it did not happen the way it is described or this is the worst instance of George giving children abilities and motives they do not have in real life.

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Alicent's boys were petty and insufferable brats during that bickering, but still, Aemond was just 10. I wonder if he would've still become such a twisted psycho, had he not lost his eye then. I give him some benefit of the doubt. Whatever bad kids do to each other, taking out one's eye is way too much and undeserved - on the other hand, I'm not sure having such a young kid stabbing another older kid is realistic at all. Whatever, both Luke and Aemond were too young to be fully responsible of their acts and words, as far as I'm concerned.

On the other hand, by the time Aemond kills Luke in cold-blood near Storm's End, he's old enough to be fully responsible and be considered a bloody murderer deserving heavy punishment.

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Aemond grew into a rash and cruel and very stupid young man, but he apparently didn't have that much resentment over the loss of his eye. He himself called it a fair trade, and his original actions at Storm's End imply he was pretty honest there.

His later excesses seem to be based mostly on the fact that he was as stupid as he was, and as unable to control his emotions when realizing how great a fool he was. He had no patience and delusions of grandeur.

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5 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

To call them Strong is the equivalent of calling them bastards.  What a grave insult to boys of royal blood

He was probably right, he was doing the same as Stannis Jon Arryn centuries later and calling bull on the patrimony of a prince.. 

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2 hours ago, Euron III Greyjoy said:

I mean, the Blacks have Rhaenyra and her sons, Daemon and his daughters, and the Oakenfist, and they're just the ones who come to mind without looking up info on the wiki. Who did the Greens have that was remotely interesting.

The Velaryon and Northern characters siding with the blacks are lot more interesting to read about than the Hightower faction on Aegon's side. 

 

Larys Strong is a Green who is very interesting, as is Criston Cole. But definitely not as interesting as the blacks

Edited by Ser Uncle P

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I don't find  children fighting up to a point of one becoming sort of a invalid entertaining, or some sort of victory for either side.

In that specific case though Aemond wasn't in the wrong. 

One of them tried to stop him to claim dragon for which he had no right, he pushed him in dragon manure and later they ganged up on him with wooden swords, also consider they would probably be his size , so I am not sure if he was physically much stronger. (  He was half the size and doubly fierce as Aegon , while they were described as large boys).

Bad nurturing is obvious on both sides, also that problem wasn't resolved properly which caused relationships to continue to fester.

Though I don't believe that absolves Aemond from killing Lucerys later while on diplomatic mission, with weaker dragon. If they accepted to duel one on one I wouldn't be against it.

Beside Ser Criston and Larys I would add to characters that could be considered "Green" , I find intriguing or likable:  Tyland Lannister, Ser Marston Waters, Ser Jon Roxton, Dareon the Daring and of course The Sunfyre. 

Edited by Eltharion21

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21 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@Eltharion21

I found Jon Roxton cool before F & B revealed him to be an unapologetic rapist.

Same here. In TPATQ he looked like a decent warrior with a cool death scene, but F&B revealed he was just another green asshole.

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21 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Lucerys (5), Jace (6), and Joff (3) vs. Aemond (10)

I am loyal to Rhaenyra's side in the dance.  Whilst reading, I was secretly hoping her boys would put an end to Aemond.  I like Rhaenyra's three boys.  I do not blame them one bit for ganging up on Aemond.  Too bad they only took one eye.  He insulted them by calling them Strong.  To call them Strong is the equivalent of calling them bastards.  What a grave insult to boys of royal blood.  

Who do you side with in the dance of the princelings?  I know I am very biased because I don't like the Greens but just about everybody on this forum is biased towards their favorite characters/family/House.

Quote

the cruelty of children is well known

To whom is Gildayn referring to, Luke? Aemond?  Is there any basis for the accusation of bastardry other than the dark hair?  I don't care for the four boys too much but I love the dragons.  

6 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

I don't find  children fighting up to a point of one becoming sort of a invalid entertaining, or some sort of victory for either side.

In that specific case though Aemond wasn't in the wrong. 

One of them tried to stop him to claim dragon for which he had no right, he pushed him in dragon manure and later they ganged up on him with wooden swords, also consider they would probably be his size , so I am not sure if he was physically much stronger. (  He was half the size and doubly fierce as Aegon , while they were described as large boys).

Bad nurturing is obvious on both sides, also that problem wasn't resolved properly which caused relationships to continue to fester.

Though I don't believe that absolves Aemond from killing Lucerys later while on diplomatic mission, with weaker dragon. If they accepted to duel one on one I wouldn't be against it.

Beside Ser Criston and Larys I would add to characters that could be considered "Green" , I find intriguing or likable:  Tyland Lannister, Ser Marston Waters, Ser Jon Roxton, Dareon the Daring and of course The Sunfyre. 

Not only was it resolved ineffectively but the whole matter of the succession should have been handled better.  Viserys should have abdicated and passed the throne to Rhaenyra while he was alive.  Do it yourself if you want it done right.  Put her on the throne before he dies.

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Tyland Lannister may have started as a Green, but he didn't die a Green. He was Aegon III's man in the end, and Aegon III wasn't a Green.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Tyland Lannister may have started as a Green, but he didn't die a Green. He was Aegon III's man in the end, and Aegon III wasn't a Green.

Spoiler : Quote about Tyland Lannister from end of chapter he is featured:

Spoiler

 

Quote

"Ser Tyland Lannister had never been beloved. After the death of Queen Rhaenyra, he had urged Aegon II to put her son Aegon to death as well, and certain blacks hated him for that. Yet after the death of Aegon II, he had remained to serve Aegon III, and certain greens hated him for that. 

Coming second from his mother’s womb, a few heartbeats after his twin brother, Jason, had denied him the glory of lordship and the gold of Casterly Rock, leaving him to make his own place in the world. Ser Tyland never married nor fathered children, so there were few to mourn him when he was carried off. The veil he wore to conceal his disfigured face gave rise to the tale that the visage underneath was monstrous and evil.

Some called him craven for keeping Westeros out of the Daughters’ War and doing so little to curb the Greyjoys in the west. By moving three-quarters of the Crown’s gold from King’s Landing whilst Aegon II’s master of coin, Tyland Lannister had sown the seeds of Queen Rhaenyra’s downfall, a stroke of cunning that would in the end cost him his eyes, ears, and health, and cost the queen her throne and her very life. Yet it must be said that he served Rhaenyra’s son well and faithfully as Hand."

 

 

 

Great character indeed. :D

 

Edited by Eltharion21

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3 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Same here. In TPATQ he looked like a decent warrior with a cool death scene, but F&B revealed he was just another green asshole.

I focus mostly on his last stand and I find him along with other Caltrops very intriguing, but yes I also dislike that part of his character.

  Though I find it odd that Blacks are mostly omitted from atrocities committed in the Dance, even though we know that for example in War of the five Kings in Riverlands Wolves commit crimes as well as Lions.

Edited by Eltharion21

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1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

Though I find it odd that Blacks are mostly omitted from atrocities committed in the Dance, even though we know that for example in War of the five Kings in Riverlands Wolves commit crimes as well as Lions.

That's one of my many issues with the Dance. The text clearly shows authorial favoritism.

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28 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

That's one of my many issues with the Dance. The text clearly shows authorial favoritism.

That would only be an issue if the author had ever said that he was not showing authorial favoritism during the Dance.

I mean, there are heroes and villains in the main series, too. And I'm sure that George is clearly biased towards, say, Arya Stark in comparison to Ramsay Bolton, or towards Brienne of Tarth if you compare her to Victarion Greyjoy.

The idea that the author should have - or intended to be - neutral on the matter of the Dance is an idea that originated with readers. George never said that there was no right or wrong in the Dance or that they were all supposed to be equally good or equally bad. 

It is still as much a pointless war as the War of the Five Kings - but even there the Lannisters and their allies clearly come across as less sympathetic and less in the right than, say, Robb and his allies. Even in a pile of shit some dragon droppings smell worth than others...

Davos hanging out with Stannis doesn't make Stannis a great guy, Tyrion doing his best saving Joffrey's ass doesn't make Joffrey, Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, etc. great people, either.

2 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

I focus mostly on his last stand and I find him along with other Caltrops very intriguing, but yes I also dislike that part of his character.

Never sure why you guys think the ugly betrayal of Hugh was a great move. That was just an ugly betrayal. Sure, the guy had some stones, but the entire thing was both stupidity (Vermithor could have helped them win the battle!) and vile treason.

2 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Though I find it odd that Blacks are mostly omitted from atrocities committed in the Dance, even though we know that for example in War of the five Kings in Riverlands Wolves commit crimes as well as Lions.

Oh, the Blacks certainly brutally butchered people, too, but aside from the Blackwoods in the beginning (who despoiled septs and butchered people in the Bracken lands) the Blacks limited themselves to proper targets in war - i.e. other armies. Thus the Fishfeed and the Butcher's Ball, while nowhere near in the same league as the Sack of Tumbleton, the Sack of Spicetown and the destruction of High Tide, etc.

The only wolves running amok in the Riverlands were the Karstark bands, no? And that was when they no longer were wolves. Robb did not have his men brutalize the smallfolk.

Robb also didn't seem to have loosened any dogs of his own on the Westerlands - which he certainly could have done. Some people are better than others.

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51 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

That's one of my many issues with the Dance. The text clearly shows authorial favoritism.

Well the Blood and Cheese incident was not the blacks ' greatest hour. Rhaenyra is depicted mostly as an incompetent ruler and in the end her paranoia undoes her completely. She could have flown her dragon to the dragon pit to rescue some of the dragons. Targaryens unwilling to fly dragons into battle are never successful rulers (Aenys being another example)

It's really the Winter wolves, the Lads and Cregan's dogged (or dogmatic) pursuit of honour that leaves you feeling good about the blacks - and sympathy for Rhaenyra having been her father's anointed heir.

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They're little boys who should have gotten proper raising.  They got their animosity from their mothers.  That carried over to their own attitudes towards the half-brothers on the other side.  It's been awhile since I read that scene but Aemond meant no harm to Joff.  And Joff only told Aemond to stay away from his own dragon.  Matters escalated and things got out of hand.  It happens when boys are unsupervised.  

I gotta say, I like Joffrey.  A 3 year old who can wake up early to be with his dragon.  I like that.  

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On 2/8/2019 at 6:18 PM, Clueless Northman said:

Alicent's boys were petty and insufferable brats during that bickering, but still, Aemond was just 10. I wonder if he would've still become such a twisted psycho, had he not lost his eye then. I give him some benefit of the doubt. Whatever bad kids do to each other, taking out one's eye is way too much and undeserved - on the other hand, I'm not sure having such a young kid stabbing another older kid is realistic at all. Whatever, both Luke and Aemond were too young to be fully responsible of their acts and words, as far as I'm concerned.

On the other hand, by the time Aemond kills Luke in cold-blood near Storm's End, he's old enough to be fully responsible and be considered a bloody murderer deserving heavy punishment.

Rhaenyra would face a lawsuit in the climate of today.  Parents are accountable for their children.  Medieval times, it's boys being boys.  

On 2/9/2019 at 5:47 AM, Eltharion21 said:

I don't find  children fighting up to a point of one becoming sort of a invalid entertaining, or some sort of victory for either side.

In that specific case though Aemond wasn't in the wrong. 

One of them tried to stop him to claim dragon for which he had no right, he pushed him in dragon manure and later they ganged up on him with wooden swords, also consider they would probably be his size , so I am not sure if he was physically much stronger. (  He was half the size and doubly fierce as Aegon , while they were described as large boys).

Bad nurturing is obvious on both sides, also that problem wasn't resolved properly which caused relationships to continue to fester.

Though I don't believe that absolves Aemond from killing Lucerys later while on diplomatic mission, with weaker dragon. If they accepted to duel one on one I wouldn't be against it.

Beside Ser Criston and Larys I would add to characters that could be considered "Green" , I find intriguing or likable:  Tyland Lannister, Ser Marston Waters, Ser Jon Roxton, Dareon the Daring and of course The Sunfyre. 

 

On 2/8/2019 at 5:52 PM, Lord Varys said:

Only Jace understood the insult as such, and Luke only tried to help a brother who getting a good beating.

This entire episode is one of the more ludicrous episodes in the entire book. Children the ages of Rhaenyra's sons don't do what George is trying to sell us, especially not since Jace and Luke were not yet six and five but rather five and four (due to the fact that we know both of them were born late in the years of their birth, and Laenor's funeral didn't take place in the last month(s) of the year). He just wanted to cramp everything important in that fateful year 120 AC.

Has anybody ever seen a three-year-old challenging a ten-year-old as forcefully as Joffrey challenges Aemond in this story? A three-year-old at that who is pretty much a good boy during the Dance itself as a twelve-year-old until he feels his dragon is in mortal danger?

Arya-Joffrey-Mycah in AGoT is believable, the story about those children is not. Either it did not happen the way it is described or this is the worst instance of George giving children abilities and motives they do not have in real life.

Oh well. George doesn't have children.  But compare this to the mass murderer Arya Stark.  Is this any less believable?  Think about it.  

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7 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Rhaenyra would face a lawsuit in the climate of today.  Parents are accountable for their children.  Medieval times, it's boys being boys.  

Aemond already had some shreds of being a proper human being at that age - Rhaenyra's children especially Joffrey did not. In fact, Gyldayn's entire narrative there may not actually be very accurate, considering that the age of the children makes it *pretty much impossible* that Alicent's children and Rhaenyra's sons grew to dislike each other very much despite the fact that Daeron and Jacaerys were exactly of the same age.

Rhaenyra removed herself permanently to Dragonstone in 120 AC after Laenor's funeral when her oldest son was still five, approaching six. Even before that she had started to prefer Dragonstone considering that her mostly residing there caused her to grow close to her good-sister Laena, etc. This seems to have happened as early as 115-116 AC, after the birth of Rhaenyra's second son, Lucerys - which took place in the Red Keep, since Alicent immediately commented on the looks of the infant (whereas we have it confirmed that Joffrey was born on Dragonstone):

Quote

Meanwhile, back in Westeros, Princess Rhaenyra had given birth to a second son late in the year 115 AC. The child was named Lucerys (Luke for short).

[...]

And the rivalry between the greens and blacks grew deeper, finally reaching the point where the queen and the princess could scarce suffer each other’s presence. Thereafter Queen Alicent kept to the Red Keep, whilst the princess spent her days on Dragonstone, attended by her ladies, Mushroom, and her champion, Ser Harwin Strong. Her husband, Ser Laenor, was said to visit “frequently.”

We can buy that Aegon the Elder and Helaena and perhaps even Aemond started to resent their half-sister thanks to the poisonous influence of their mother, but Rhaenyra's sons would at least have to be 6-10 to actually give a crap about abstract hostilities the kind of which these older people felt.

But some toddlers the age 1-3 most definitely wouldn't have picked up on that.

In that sense, Joffrey Velaryon wouldn't even have known his uncle Aemond very well - or at all (he may have first physically seen the guy at his father's funeral). Even if they had interacted before, we all know that children only start to develop a proper longtime memory around the age of three, so whatever 1-2-year-old Joffrey heard or saw of Aemond wouldn't have stuck in his head.

In a sense, George effectively hints at that fact, considering he writes this, before the year 120 AC:

Quote

The sins of the fathers are oft visited on the sons, wise men have said; and so it is for the sins of mothers as well. The enmity between Queen Alicent and Princess Rhaenyra was passed on to their sons, and the queen’s three boys, the Princes Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron, grew to be bitter rivals of their Velaryon nephews, resentful of them for having stolen what they regarded as their birthright: the Iron Throne itself. Though all six boys attended the same feasts, balls, and revels, and sometimes trained together in the yard under the same master-at-arms and studied under the same maesters, this enforced closeness only served to feed their mutual mislike, rather than binding them together as brothers.

Most of the blame seems to be laid at the feet of Alicent's elder boys. Rhaenyra's sons actually had no internal reasons/motivations to be 'bitter rivals' of their uncles, nor had they any reason to be resentful. They were second, third, and fourth in line to the Iron Throne, unlike their uncles.

The times they spent with the same master-at-arms and the same maesters must have been very limited, considering they never exactly lived at the same castle, and only Rhaenyra and the boys would have visited court and the king, rather than Alicent and her children Dragonstone.

7 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Oh well. George doesn't have children.  But compare this to the mass murderer Arya Stark.  Is this any less believable?  Think about it.  

The latter is also not very believable but at least we are in Arya's head and know her. Thankfully, George never gave us a three-year-old (!!!) as a POV. Joffrey's reaction as portrayed by Gyldayn cannot really be the *the truth*, especially be the part of Joff actually challenging Aemond. It may be that this is the story the boy later liked to tell, playing up his own courage and bravery, but from a realistic point of view it makes little sense to assume that this actually happened. If Joff said anything to his uncle it would have been to warn him that approaching Vhagar would be dangerous.

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