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Widowmaker 811

Dance of the Princelings

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On 2/8/2019 at 8:03 PM, Ser Uncle P said:

He was probably right, he was doing the same as Stannis Jon Arryn centuries later and calling bull on the patrimony of a prince.. 

The dark hair is suspect.  

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12 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Rhaenyra would face a lawsuit in the climate of today.  Parents are accountable for their children.  Medieval times, it's boys being boys.  

 

Oh well. George doesn't have children.  But compare this to the mass murderer Arya Stark.  Is this any less believable?  Think about it.  

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Aemond already had some shreds of being a proper human being at that age - Rhaenyra's children especially Joffrey did not. In fact, Gyldayn's entire narrative there may not actually be very accurate, considering that the age of the children makes it *pretty much impossible* that Alicent's children and Rhaenyra's sons grew to dislike each other very much despite the fact that Daeron and Jacaerys were exactly of the same age.

Rhaenyra removed herself permanently to Dragonstone in 120 AC after Laenor's funeral when her oldest son was still five, approaching six. Even before that she had started to prefer Dragonstone considering that her mostly residing there caused her to grow close to her good-sister Laena, etc. This seems to have happened as early as 115-116 AC, after the birth of Rhaenyra's second son, Lucerys - which took place in the Red Keep, since Alicent immediately commented on the looks of the infant (whereas we have it confirmed that Joffrey was born on Dragonstone):

We can buy that Aegon the Elder and Helaena and perhaps even Aemond started to resent their half-sister thanks to the poisonous influence of their mother, but Rhaenyra's sons would at least have to be 6-10 to actually give a crap about abstract hostilities the kind of which these older people felt.

But some toddlers the age 1-3 most definitely wouldn't have picked up on that.

In that sense, Joffrey Velaryon wouldn't even have known his uncle Aemond very well - or at all (he may have first physically seen the guy at his father's funeral). Even if they had interacted before, we all know that children only start to develop a proper longtime memory around the age of three, so whatever 1-2-year-old Joffrey heard or saw of Aemond wouldn't have stuck in his head.

In a sense, George effectively hints at that fact, considering he writes this, before the year 120 AC:

Most of the blame seems to be laid at the feet of Alicent's elder boys. Rhaenyra's sons actually had no internal reasons/motivations to be 'bitter rivals' of their uncles, nor had they any reason to be resentful. They were second, third, and fourth in line to the Iron Throne, unlike their uncles.

The times they spent with the same master-at-arms and the same maesters must have been very limited, considering they never exactly lived at the same castle, and only Rhaenyra and the boys would have visited court and the king, rather than Alicent and her children Dragonstone.

The latter is also not very believable but at least we are in Arya's head and know her. Thankfully, George never gave us a three-year-old (!!!) as a POV. Joffrey's reaction as portrayed by Gyldayn cannot really be the *the truth*, especially be the part of Joff actually challenging Aemond. It may be that this is the story the boy later liked to tell, playing up his own courage and bravery, but from a realistic point of view it makes little sense to assume that this actually happened. If Joff said anything to his uncle it would have been to warn him that approaching Vhagar would be dangerous.

The mothers fueled that hate.  Viserys didn't handle the matter properly.  But even with proper handling the feelings were too toxic.  And Arya, that's not exactly all that believable either.  Although the wolf blood makes her abnormal and perhaps that might explain her violent nature.

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5 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The mothers fueled that hate.  Viserys didn't handle the matter properly.  But even with proper handling the feelings were too toxic.  And Arya, that's not exactly all that believable either.  Although the wolf blood makes her abnormal and perhaps that might explain her violent nature.

In the 120s the fueling of hatred of the princes is believable. But in the 110s that's just a silly and unbelievable idea. In what universe do children from 3-5 in 120 AC (!) care about abstract things? Not in our universe. And, frankly, what's mommy is saying shouldn't really be enough to instill lasting resentment. At least not on the side of Rhaenyra's sons who basically had no good reason to be resentful of their uncles. Here things would have made more sense if there had been repeated clashes between some of them, or better still, actually some sort of friendship between some of them - say, Jace and Daeron - which either extended into the Dance or ended due to some ugly affair/scandal.

From around ten onwards one can imagine the Velaryon boys to really get involved in all that. Aegon the Elder, Helaena, and Aemond can have started somewhat earlier.

The time to build up proper tension between the children would have been, say, the wedding of Aegon and Helaena in 122 AC, when Jace and Luke were at least somewhat closer to ten years, or even later still, say, Viserys I's 25th anniversary on the Iron Throne in 128 AC, or earlier when Helaena's children were born.

I mean, if Jace or Luke had been the guy to surprise Aemond in 120 AC things would have been a tidbit more believable, but Joffrey acting the way he supposedly did is way too much for me. Both his original reaction and his later involvement in the fighting. He was a three-year-old!

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On 2/12/2019 at 3:59 PM, Lord Varys said:

In the 120s the fueling of hatred of the princes is believable. But in the 110s that's just a silly and unbelievable idea. In what universe do children from 3-5 in 120 AC (!) care about abstract things? Not in our universe. And, frankly, what's mommy is saying shouldn't really be enough to instill lasting resentment. At least not on the side of Rhaenyra's sons who basically had no good reason to be resentful of their uncles. Here things would have made more sense if there had been repeated clashes between some of them, or better still, actually some sort of friendship between some of them - say, Jace and Daeron - which either extended into the Dance or ended due to some ugly affair/scandal.

From around ten onwards one can imagine the Velaryon boys to really get involved in all that. Aegon the Elder, Helaena, and Aemond can have started somewhat earlier.

The time to build up proper tension between the children would have been, say, the wedding of Aegon and Helaena in 122 AC, when Jace and Luke were at least somewhat closer to ten years, or even later still, say, Viserys I's 25th anniversary on the Iron Throne in 128 AC, or earlier when Helaena's children were born.

I mean, if Jace or Luke had been the guy to surprise Aemond in 120 AC things would have been a tidbit more believable, but Joffrey acting the way he supposedly did is way too much for me. Both his original reaction and his later involvement in the fighting. He was a three-year-old!

You may be right.  Children from a young age are capable of strong dislike.  The reason doesn't have to be good.  They pick it up from their parents.  It's a bit like racism.  Children learn to hate from an early age.  Take the children of the nobles in Westeros.  They know and they keep to their class.  Viserys was always proud of his royal heritage even when he was younger than Aemond.  Robb and Sansa were quick to put Jon in his place at Winterfell.  

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2 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

You may be right.  Children from a young age are capable of strong dislike.  The reason doesn't have to be good.  They pick it up from their parents.  It's a bit like racism.  Children learn to hate from an early age.  Take the children of the nobles in Westeros.  They know and they keep to their class.  Viserys was always proud of his royal heritage even when he was younger than Aemond.  Robb and Sansa were quick to put Jon in his place at Winterfell.  

Still, with Rhaenyra moving permanently to Dragonstone shortly after Luke's birth it is not very likely that she always talked badly about Alicent's children in front of the boys, nor does this make it overall likely that the children in general had a chance to actually develop a mutual dislike based on their actual experiences with each other.

Sure, one imagines that Rhaenyra made it clear to her sons that Alicent wasn't their nice grandmother but rather a woman she did not like very much, and it also makes sense that Aegon and his brothers did indeed resent the Velaryon boys for the fact that they were now next in line to the Iron Throne after their half-sister, but the idea of the Velaryon boys actually disliking Alicent's sons - which they would have scarcely met and have no real reason to resent - is not exactly well-founded.

Rhaenyra was the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne. She has the high ground. Her half-brothers are jealous of her, but she has no reason of being jealous of them.

As for general class distinctions and the like:

Yes, children pick up on that, but even that is something that's not evident in children who are barely older than toddlers, especially if they can play with all the children in the castle. Robb and Sansa are aware of the differences between them and Jon, but Bran has not really reached that point in AGoT. And Rickon doesn't understand anything of that sort at all. 

The overall point I was trying to make is that the clashes between the children should have been happening in the mid or late 120s, rather than pretty much explode in 120 AC. That was too early.

There could have been tourney injuries, later, say, ugly episodes in the practice yard, accidents involving dragons, things like that.

Jacaerys Velaryon and Aegon the Elder would have been both more than old enough in the late 120s to really clash severely over a lot of things.

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