Poll: Is Jon Snow the son of a Dayne?

[Wight_wolf]

I really want Jon to be tied to the daynes/dawn in some way. But I don’t thinks it’s too likely. My first read I was certain and still really hopeful he  will become sword of the morning. 

[Rufus Snow]

On 2/20/2019 at 10:04 PM, corbon said:

FWIW, I too think Ashara is more likely to have had something with Brandon, than Ned. This is based on the Reed's story, and the thoughts of Barristan. But that was at Harrenhal, not later at Brandon's confinement/trial/murder.
I think Barristan's still-born girl (who may in fact be not-still-born Allyria Dayne) is more likely Brandon's conceived at Harrenhal.
Brandon asking for Ashara's hand though, doesn't seem to fit his character or actions. 

 

PS GRRM is explicitly on record saying Brandon had no sons, and also Brandon had no legitimate children (therefore no secret marriage to Ashara making any child of hers with him legitimate).

Aha! Now that's an interesting idea, which I hadn't thought of before. May go some way to explain the otherwise unexplainable warmth shown between the Houses Dayne and Stark ... I'll have to mull that over a bit, thanks...

[Platypus Rex]

22 hours ago, SFDanny said:

What I'm talking about is taking inferences from parts of the text that doesn't support those inferences. You are quoting the wrong text and the wrong characters if you want to have support for there being a Dayne child born from a tryst at Harrenhal. 

Well, that's always a matter of opinion, isn't it, at least until future volumes are released.  And on that note, I think it's probably time to move on to the next poll.

[Black Dragons]

On 2/20/2019 at 5:04 PM, corbon said:

Brandon died not in the Red Keep's cells, but in public in the throne room. Aerys did send for Rickard, who came. There were trials for Brandon and his companions, 'of a sort'. Rickard chose trial by combat for Brandon, with himself as Brandon's Champion.

Thats an eyewitness report, with no reason to lie. Jaime was there, in the room.

That was before the war. After Brandon and Rickard died, Aerys demanded John Arryn send him Ned's and Robert's heads. John refused and raised his banners. Thats the start of the rebellion/war.

So for Brandon to be the father, Jon Snow has to be conceived before the war began.
Catelyn and Ned were married several months into the war (3-4 months at least, though that doesn't really allow enough time for the necessary army movements, but GRRM doesn't seem to have managed this part well) and conceived Robb more or less immediately.

Jon is supposedly younger the Robb, and everyone finds this utterly believable. If Brandon was his father he'd be at least 4 months older than Robb, probably more, and there is no way that anyone in Winterfell could believe he was younger. No one with any experience of babies can miss a 4-6+ months difference when then babies are young and together. There are too many highly consistent developmental milestones (like being able to hold its head up alone, recognise and track faces with its eyes, sit up alone, roll over alone, all sorts of things).  And that assumes Ashara sneaking into the Red Keep cells and fucking Brandon, for which there is no evidence at all. If not, Jon must be even older and even more impossible to think younger than Robb.

 

 

It helps if you have any shred of evidence at all to support beliefs. Otherwise you're just discussing the story you'd like, not the one we have. No point being here unless you're discussing the story we have in common.

 

FWIW, I too think Ashara is more likely to have had something with Brandon, than Ned. This is based on the Reed's story, and the thoughts of Barristan. But that was at Harrenhal, not later at Brandon's confinement/trial/murder.
I think Barristan's still-born girl (who may in fact be not-still-born Allyria Dayne) is more likely Brandon's conceived at Harrenhal.
Brandon asking for Ashara's hand though, doesn't seem to fit his character or actions. 

 

PS GRRM is explicitly on record saying Brandon had no sons, and also Brandon had no legitimate children (therefore no secret marriage to Ashara making any child of hers with him legitimate).

 

Sorry You are wrong after Brandon Stark Marry Ashara Dayne his father told him that he getting marry to Catyn Tully. Brandon Stark being smart said nothing about the fact he is already marry to Ashara Dayne. Ashara Dayne vist Brandon Stark in the Black Cells and made Jon Snow that why he little older than Robb Stark but Ned lit about his age. I believe he about 6 months earlier in age. 

 

The statement Brandon Stark had no sons while he was alive   why would said while he was alive? why not NO SONS?  Listen he and Ashara Dayne had sex while he in Black Cells. That wear that were they made Jon Snow.

 

[corbon]

19 hours ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

Sorry You are wrong after Brandon Stark Marry Ashara Dayne his father told him that he getting marry to Catyn Tully.

Err, Brandon and Catelyn were betrothed when he was about 14 IIRC, 6 years or so before the Harrenhal Tourney. I can;t find the quotes, but they are there somewhere. 
Not sure how he met and secretly married Ashara way back then...

19 hours ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

Ashara Dayne vist Brandon Stark in the Black Cells and made Jon Snow that why he little older than Robb Stark but Ned lit about his age. I believe he about 6 months earlier in age. 

It is not possible for Jon to be 6 months older than Robb. Its too large a difference between the babes when they were first together, growing up as brothers. No one around them could possibly believe Robb was older, as everyone does, if Jon was 6 month older when they were first together.

19 hours ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

The statement Brandon Stark had no sons while he was alive   why would said while he was alive? why not NO SONS?  Listen he and Ashara Dayne had sex while he in Black Cells. That wear that were they made Jon Snow.

I'm willing to listen, but only to evidence, not fantasies with no evidence at all. All I can see from you so far is an insistence that you are right, but nothing to support your ideas. Its not a compelling argument.

On 2/23/2019 at 5:11 AM, Rufus Snow said:

Aha! Now that's an interesting idea, which I hadn't thought of before. May go some way to explain the otherwise unexplainable warmth shown between the Houses Dayne and Stark ... I'll have to mull that over a bit, thanks...

Its not my idea. I think I first heard it from @Ygrain, years ago. I'm not sure it was her idea or just one of those things thats been floating around for probably close to a decade or more now.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

8 minutes ago, corbon said:

Err, Brandon and Catelyn were betrothed when he was about 14 IIRC, 6 years or so before the Harrenhal Tourney. I can;t find the quotes, but they are there somewhere. 

Not that it matters, because at this point, only GRRM spelling out who Jon's parents black on white will do, but there's this line, she gives her age when she was betrothed to Brandon;

"Gods, Catelyn, Sansa is only eleven," Ned said. "And Joffrey . . . Joffrey is . . . "
She finished for him. ". . . crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon." (Catelyn II, AGOT 6)

In this one she gives a timeline;

I gave Brandon my favor to wear, and never comforted Petyr once after he was wounded, nor bid him farewell when Father sent him off. And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned's face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty. (Catelyn VI, Clash 45)

[SFDanny]

59 minutes ago, corbon said:

Its not my idea. I think I first heard it from @Ygrain, years ago. I'm not sure it was her idea or just one of those things thats been floating around for probably close to a decade or more now.

There is this old thread from 2011 in which it is discussed.

Which makes sense because that corresponds with the publication of A Dance with Dragons in which we first learn of Ashara's still born child. However, first mention of Allyria is in A Storm of Swords which is published way back in 2000. My guess would be the earliest theory about Allyria's possible origins and Ned + Ashara= Allyria could date back to 2000, but a Brandon +Ashara = Allyria theory would only come about after ADwD. I can't say I remember who first purposed either theory.

[Bael's Bastard]

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Err, Brandon and Catelyn were betrothed when he was about 14 IIRC, 6 years or so before the Harrenhal Tourney. I can;t find the quotes, but they are there somewhere.

@corbon

Sansa states that Lysa was two years younger than Cately, and Catelyn states that Petyr was younger than Lysa, so it stands to reason that Catelyn was at least 17 years old when scarcely 15 Petyr fought 20 year old Brandon in the months after Harrenhal.

I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon.

- AGOT: Catelyn II

Lady Lysa was two years younger than Mother

- ASOS: Sansa VI

How young they all had been—she no older than Sansa, Lysa younger than Arya, and Petyr younger still, yet eager.

- AGOT: Catelyn XI

Brandon was twenty, Petyr scarcely fifteen.

- AGOT: Catelyn IV

[Ygrain]

14 hours ago, SFDanny said:

There is this old thread from 2011 in which it is discussed.

Which makes sense because that corresponds with the publication of A Dance with Dragons in which we first learn of Ashara's still born child. However, first mention of Allyria is in A Storm of Swords which is published way back in 2000. My guess would be the earliest theory about Allyria's possible origins and Ned + Ashara= Allyria could date back to 2000, but a Brandon +Ashara = Allyria theory would only come about after ADwD. I can't say I remember who first purposed either theory.

I don't remember, either :-(  Allyria as Ashara's baby may have come from @Apple Martini . Brandon as the father of Ashara's baby was what several of us concluded after reading about his tryst with Barbrey, especially as Barristan has nothing but respect for Ned.

[kleevedge]

Yes, but not a hard Yes. I like N+A=J I'm even open to Benjen+Ashara=Jon.

[kissdbyfire]

12 minutes ago, kleevedge said:

Yes, but not a hard Yes. I like N+A=J I'm even open to Benjen+Ashara=Jon.

How would that work, timeline wise? Are we back at Jon having been conceived during the Harrenhal tourney?

[Platypus Rex]

19 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

How would that work, timeline wise? Are we back at Jon having been conceived during the Harrenhal tourney?

We know that some of those present in the Harrenhall tourney remained in Harrenhall until at least early 282.  So there is some flexibility there, prior to the death of Brandon.

[acwill07]

I don't understand why so many want there to be some kind of secret romance between Brandon and Ashara, when clearly that's not the case because there's no evidence for it.  Ned was the one in love with Ashara, which is why Brandon spoke to her on Ned's behalf for a dance.  If people are using Ned's character as evidence then that's pretty weak.....sure, deflowering a highborn maid was not something Ned Stark would've normally done, but these were extenuating circumstances.  Neither of them were promised and there was a lot of drinking and dancing going on at Harranhal.  It's obvious that George is trying to convey that Ned and Ashara loved each other but Ned had to forsake her for the honor of his house and marry Catelyn after Brandon was slain.

There is zero evidence that anything ever happened between Brandon and Ashara.

[Luddagain]

Yes

1. Jon is the son of Ned and Ashara. He is the LEGITIMATE son, since I suspect the Daynes also worship the old gods and they were married under a weirwood, although a travelling Septon may also have been involved. My theory is that they were married, just as Ned headed off to war after Brandon died. Ashara is also the fisherman's daughter, and Willa.

2. Robb is the son of Brandon and Catelyn. he was conceived just before Brandon went riding off to chase Rhaegar, thus is about 4-8 weeks older than Jon.  I believe that Ned believed Ashara was dead -ie the fisherman died and therefore did his duty by Catelyn.

3. Depending on whether Ashara is alive or not all the other Starks are bastards BUT it is more than possible that under the laws of the old gods, polygamy is acceptable so if Ned persuaded Catelyn to have both a Septon wedding and a Northern weding 9which I think he would have, then possibly they are all legitimate.

4. I think it probable that Dany is the daughter of Rhaella and Arthur Dayne. We know she reminds Barriston of Ashara.

5. Now who was Lyanna's child. I am going to pose a super way out theory here. Gendry is Lyanna's boy via Robert. I think if it was Robert who in fact raped lyanna it would explain his mental collapse and essentially his total failure as a King. I doubt that Ned would know and possibly even Robert did not know a child was born. Gendry's age is about right. He is 14 when we first meet him at a time when Jon is just 15. So if Robert DID catch up with Rhaegar and Lyanna say 4-6 months into the war, then the timelines all work.

 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Luddagain said:

Yes

1. Jon is the son of Ned and Ashara. He is the LEGITIMATE son, since I suspect the Daynes also worship the old gods and they were married under a weirwood, although a travelling Septon may also have been involved. My theory is that they were married, just as Ned headed off to war after Brandon died. Ashara is also the fisherman's daughter, and Willa.

I’m not following... Ashara is the fisherman’s daughter and Wylla? So, was she travelling w/ Ned? And since Wylla was Ned Dayne’s wet nurse, then she was her own nephew’s wet nurse? 

1 hour ago, Luddagain said:

2. Robb is the son of Brandon and Catelyn. he was conceived just before Brandon went riding off to chase Rhaegar, thus is about 4-8 weeks older than Jon.  I believe that Ned believed Ashara was dead -ie the fisherman died and therefore did his duty by Catelyn.

And Cat is lying to herself when she thinks about Ned taking her maidenhead? 

1 hour ago, Luddagain said:

3. Depending on whether Ashara is alive or not all the other Starks are bastards BUT it is more than possible that under the laws of the old gods, polygamy is acceptable so if Ned persuaded Catelyn to have both a Septon wedding and a Northern weding 9which I think he would have, then possibly they are all legitimate.

No, it isn’t “more than possible”. In fact, it’s extremely unlikely, since we have heard absolutely nothing about it. 

As to Ned & Cat’s wedding, we are specifically told it happened in RR’s sept. And again, there are no mentions or hints of another ceremony before the OG. 

1 hour ago, Luddagain said:

4. I think it probable that Dany is the daughter of Rhaella and Arthur Dayne. We know she reminds Barriston of Ashara.

Probable? Really? How is it “probable”? Please, explain the chain of events here. 

1 hour ago, Luddagain said:

5. Now who was Lyanna's child. I am going to pose a super way out theory here. Gendry is Lyanna's boy via Robert. I think if it was Robert who in fact raped lyanna it would explain his mental collapse and essentially his total failure as a King. I doubt that Ned would know and possibly even Robert did not know a child was born. Gendry's age is about right. He is 14 when we first meet him at a time when Jon is just 15. So if Robert DID catch up with Rhaegar and Lyanna say 4-6 months into the war, then the timelines all work.

Because everything else you proposed here isn’t way out (out, out, out) there?

I honestly have no idea where stuff like this comes from, since there’s nothing in the text pointing to it. Like, not at all. I sometimes get a feeling some readers come up w/ totally unsupported and strange ideas that even go against the text at times, just on the off chance that Martin is both nuts and a really bad writer, and they’ll be the only special snowflake who will be proven correct. Not saying that’s the case here necessarily. 

 

[Luddagain]

KbF

1. Pretty much yes to your questions. Now we know that Ashara was "dishonoured" at Harrenall and she had a child. Barristan is a reliable witness to that fact.  However no where in the text does it suggest it was a Stark who dishonoured her, only that in her trouble she turned to a Stark.

So SOMEONE dishonoured her. So assuming it was a character we know of at Harrenhall we have: Aerys, Raegar, Barristan, Arthur Dayne, Ned, Brandon, Benjen, Robb one of the Freys, Howland Reed . Now leaving out a stark (because of the deliberate ambiguity of GRRM's words, Arthur, and assuming the freys are not sufficiently important and assuming Barristan is noble, we are left with Robert, Rhaegar or Aerys. I read the text as a Stark helping Ashara ESCAPE her attacker. I think that it was Aerys who raped Ashara. The child probably lived and would be roughly the same age as Aegon. Since her pregnancy was well known it may be assumed that she did not immediately flee but returned to court. However afterwards, ashara would have been in mortal fear of mad aerys, whom we know to have mistreated Rhaella, so presumably he would be biting and injuring Ashara.

So if it was indeed Aerys, then the Starks helped Ashara ESCAPE his clutches. They perhaps were ALL involved and it may be the real reason that Aerys had Brandon and Rickard killed. So yes I think Ashara was possibly hiding out somewhere  first (with Lyanna and Benjen, then with Ned) calling herself Wylla).  It was Aerys who kidnapped Lyanna while seeking Ashara.  When the war happened  Ashara/ wylla was in the boat pretending to be the fisherman's daughter. 

2.  Cat is not so much lying as misremembering. We know Brandon liked taking maidenheads so why not that of Catelyn. She was pretty much an innocent but there did not seem to be any sort of chaperoning of the Tully girls. It was a pretty short space of time between the death of her fiancée and marriage to his brother.  It is even possible that Catelyn was not aware she was pregnant, but her DAD was because he had been alerted to the Lyssa problem.

3. In fact we have heard HEAPS about it if indirectly. The Mormant girls take multiple partners and their children are legitimate. Tormund seems to have several wives. The Targs have several wives as does Craster. it is ONLY the religion of the seven that imposed monogamy, and the starks do not believes in that god.

4 is simply deduction. We know that Dany is a Targ but we also know that she looks like Ashara. so the possible pairings are aerys/Ashara, Rhaegar/ashara, Rhaella/arthur. Of the three I think Rhaella and Arthur the most likely.

 

The trouble is that there is NOTHING in the text for any of the other theories. Read the Barriston words carefully. There is NO suggestion that it was a stark who dishonoured Ashara.

 

[corbon]

16 hours ago, acwill07 said:

I don't understand why so many want there to be some kind of secret romance between Brandon and Ashara,

Its not 'want'. Read and understand the text, look at it from every angle, consider the various options and likelihoods, and how they fit with what we know of actions, descriptions, characterisations, personalities and motivations.

16 hours ago, acwill07 said:

when clearly that's not the case because there's no evidence for it. 

See below.

16 hours ago, acwill07 said:

Ned was the one in love with Ashara, which is why Brandon spoke to her on Ned's behalf for a dance. 

Actually, there's no good evidence for this. 
Everything that we get that points to Ned + Ashara is supposition and guesses from people who were not actually around either of those people at that time.
Lets go through them all for you, in the order they appear in the books (apologies if I miss any, I just did a search for Ashara and used those).
First, we have Cat recollecting her little talk with Ned. She heard rumours around Winterfell, but the rumours she heard did not connect Ned and Ashara in a relationship. They were about Ned fighting Arthur, and then taking the sword to Starfall. Where there was a beautiful young maid. People, including Cat, are putting two and two together, beautiful young maid, bastard son from nowhere. But the rumours themselves don't do this. They are also not coming from people who were there. None of Ned's soldiers, or the Winterfell staff, were at ToJ, or Starfall. So the provenance of this rumour is poor and its easy to see how people get to N+A without there being any truth necessarily behind it.
You may point to Ned's response to Cat (many do), but then you should note that Ned is very specific. He warns Cat off, not talk about Ashara, but talk about Jon. He does this because Jon's origin is a dangerous secret ("Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust") and discussing it makes it more likely people will figure out the secret. Sure, Ashara's name is never heard again, but thats a byproduct of Ned's concern about Jon. Cat just draws the wrong conclusion.

Then you have Cersei talking to Ned. But she clearly doesn't know anything, she just throws several theoretical possibilities in Ned's face. She was never around Ned and Ashara together and doesn't have any direct knowledge of any feelings or relationship between them, but she does know that Ned came back from Starfall with a bastard and Ashara supposedly threw herself from a tower into the sea, so again, she's putting 2 and 2 together to suggest N+A as a possibility. Its not something she knows about though.

Then we have Ned Dayne. He claims Ned+ Ashara we in love. You'd think he might have some real knowledge. However, he also claims Ned was bonking Wylla while in love with Ashara (Wylla is Jon's mum, according to him. Thats clearly not in Ned's character (and we see from Robert that Ned was always very honourable and serious, even when he was young). So we examine Ned Dayne's story and we realise that he wasn't even born at the time. He's telling us only what he was told by his aunt Allyria. He doesn't have any real clue, and doesn't even understand how self contradictory his own story is.
So we look at Allyria. She's Ashara's own sister, surely she knows more, right? Well, it seems not. Allyria has been betrothed to young Lord Beric Dondarrion for around 6 years, but is not yet married. The usual reason for this is that she's too young to be married yet - Berics a Lord, and in his early twenties, so he's certainly old enough. And Ashara died around 16-17 years ago. So if Allyria was old enough to have talked to her directly and been a confidant of Ashara's about her love life, she'd bye late twenties by now at least, practically an old maid. Its more or less inconceivable that she is that old with a 6 year betrothal to a marriageable young Lord with good familial relations. So it turns out, Allyria is too young to have known Ned + Ashara herself. (In fact, there's a theory that she might actually be the not-really-stillborn daughter of Ashara that Barristan talks about, claimed by Asharas mother in order to prevent the stain of bastardry.) 
So this story is not just internally inconsistent and totally opposed to Ned's character, its also just a tale told by two kids who weren't around at the time. Its provenance is basically a fairly tale to make Ashara's suicide look nobly tragic, better for the 'family history'.

Then there is Harren's response to Ned Dayne's story. He says he heard the tale before, at Winterfell. But he doubts it was true. So thats a strike against.

Last we have the Reed's story where Brandon speaks to Ashara. Which doesn't say anything about Ned loving Ashara, or wanting to dance with her. Just that Brandon spoke "on behalf" of Ned, which may be at Ned's desire or at Brandon's desire. The picture we are given though is of a shy 18 yr old Ned sitting on the benches, 'missing out' on the biggest party in years. Ashara is popular and very well connected courtier, dancing with the most dashing and eligible men. Brandon (also a popular and dashing young man) convinces her to dance with Ned. I think that looks more like Brandon doing his shy little bro a favour off his own bat, you are free to think it means Ned asked Brandon to do it. What you can't claim is that it definitely means Ned asked Brandon or that Ned wanted Ashara.

In summary, we have nothing solid at all supporting N+A, just dubious rumours from people who never saw them together and mostly didn't know either of them well.

The foundation for these rumours is clear and obvious and requires no actual relationship between Ned and Ashara to start the rumours.
1. Ned takes Dawn to Starfall.
2, Ned comes away from Starfall with a bastard son which he never had before
3. The beautiful, disgraced from court, maiden of Starfall kills herself after Ned leaves with the babe.
 

16 hours ago, acwill07 said:

If people are using Ned's character as evidence then that's pretty weak.....sure, deflowering a highborn maid was not something Ned Stark would've normally done, but these were extenuating circumstances. 

There are no extenuating circumstances for such conduct, by Ned or by anyone else. This is a huge, totally life-altering thing, far more important than than it would be today, with vastly more at stake. 
Ashara did lose her position, her reputation, her life prospects, such that she supposedly committed suicide.
And yet, Ned never thinks of her.

16 hours ago, acwill07 said:

Neither of them were promised and there was a lot of drinking and dancing going on at Harranhal. 

Drinking by Robert and his mates, yes. No evidence Ned (or Ashara) drank too much.

16 hours ago, acwill07 said:

It's obvious that George is trying to convey that Ned and Ashara loved each other

Its obvious George has set this up as a false lead. There are many references but not a single one is remotely solid and everything we learn about Ned's character and past history screams that it is false,

16 hours ago, acwill07 said:

but Ned had to forsake her for the honor of his house and marry Catelyn after Brandon was slain.

Lets just call your version of Ned "No Regrets Ned" then shall we? Because he never thinks of Ashara at all. No memory of the woman he supposedly loved. No thought for how he casually destroyed her life as well as her honour.
Except, this really isn't the Ned we get to know. Who has many regrets, many secrets, cares for others, holds to honour, has always been the same character, except shyer and quieter when he was a second son with few responsibilities, not a High Lord with a very public face and responsibilities.

16 hours ago, acwill07 said:

There is zero evidence that anything ever happened between Brandon and Ashara.

Well, the Reed's story clearly proves this completely false, since it outright states that Ashara danced with Ned at the behest of Brandon. So at the very least Ashara interacted directly with Brandon and agreed to do his bidding.

But most of the evidence from Brandon+Ashara comes from Barristan's thoughts, and character examinations.
Barristan thinks that Ashara 'looked to' Stark, after Harrenhal. Not clear which Stark he is talking about,or whether she 'looked to' Stark because Stark wronged her, or because Stark was someone who could help her against the person who wronged her.

More important, is this quote, from Barristan, talking about Dany:

Quote

 Like all good queens she put her people first—else she would never have wed Hizdahr zo Loraq—but the girl in her still yearned for poetry, passion, and laughter. She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud.

You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where firewould only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time.

Barristan's a knight of the Kingsguard - the old, honourable, strict sort. He loved Ashara, but never let her know, because of his vows. So how much experience does he have of young girls and the choices they make between fire and mud?
Not much.
There are two young girls we know of that Barristan has some connection with their choices of men. Dany is one, the current subject of this thought. But he thinks 'young girls always choose fire'. There must be at least one more young girl he has experience with, and she must have chosen fire. We know he has experience and was paying close attention to Ashara. Thats the other young girl he knows about in this context. So Ashara chose fire, not mud. 
Which Stark is fire, which Stark is mud. The answer is very clear.

Then as additional evidence, you have Brandon's general characterisation, from Lady Barbrey and from others who knew him and the historical record. Brandon was the wild wolf. A foolish gallant. A man who had to be held back from attacking Rhaegar (who had earlier beaten him) at Harrenhal after the QoLaB award. A man who liked a bloody sword (with both connotations). A man who already deflowered one willing noble virgin.

So, we have evidence that Brandon and Ashara successfully interacted, that Ashara did Brandon's bidding. 
We have evidence that Ashara looked to Stark, but not which one.
We have evidence that suggests Ashara chose fire over mud.
We have evidence that Ashara was disgraced from court. 
We have evidence that Brandon was the character, and had history, of disgracing a woman the way Ashara was disgraced.
We have evidence Ned is not that sort of character.
We have evidence Ned was never that sort of character.

 

[corbon]

9 hours ago, Luddagain said:

KbF

1. Pretty much yes to your questions. Now we know that Ashara was "dishonoured" at Harrenall and she had a child. Barristan is a reliable witness to that fact.  However no where in the text does it suggest it was a Stark who dishonoured her, only that in her trouble she turned to a Stark.

Barristan is a reliable witness that she was dishonoured, not that she actually had a child. She was long gone from court before any babe would have ben born, so he's just going on what he's heard about the stillborn.

9 hours ago, Luddagain said:

So SOMEONE dishonoured her. So assuming it was a character we know of at Harrenhall we have: Aerys, Raegar, Barristan, Arthur Dayne, Ned, Brandon, Benjen, Robb one of the Freys, Howland Reed . Now leaving out a stark (because of the deliberate ambiguity of GRRM's words, Arthur,

Thats not a reason to leave them out though Its a reason to leave them both in.

9 hours ago, Luddagain said:

and assuming the freys are not sufficiently important and assuming Barristan is noble, we are left with Robert, Rhaegar or Aerys. I read the text as a Stark helping Ashara ESCAPE her attacker.

Thats possible too. It could even be one Stark helping her escape the other.

What you can;t do is assume that your possible interpretation is the only one. 

A Stark can be her attacker. 
She may have looked to her attacker, a Stark.
She may have looked to Stark as a defender - either from another Stark or from someone else.

9 hours ago, Luddagain said:

I think that it was Aerys who raped Ashara. The child probably lived and would be roughly the same age as Aegon. Since her pregnancy was well known it may be assumed that she did not immediately flee but returned to court. However afterwards, ashara would have been in mortal fear of mad aerys, whom we know to have mistreated Rhaella, so presumably he would be biting and injuring Ashara.

Too much supposition without enough evidence. And too much ignoring things which should not be ignored.

9 hours ago, Luddagain said:

So if it was indeed Aerys, then the Starks helped Ashara ESCAPE his clutches. They perhaps were ALL involved and it may be the real reason that Aerys had Brandon and Rickard killed. So yes I think Ashara was possibly hiding out somewhere  first (with Lyanna and Benjen, then with Ned) calling herself Wylla).  It was Aerys who kidnapped Lyanna while seeking Ashara.  When the war happened  Ashara/ wylla was in the boat pretending to be the fisherman's daughter. 

And all this while, her brother, Ser Arthur Dayne, the finest knight in the seven Kingdoms and a shining example to the world... is where doing what?

9 hours ago, Luddagain said:

2.  Cat is not so much lying as misremembering. We know Brandon liked taking maidenheads so why not that of Catelyn. She was pretty much an innocent but there did not seem to be any sort of chaperoning of the Tully girls. It was a pretty short space of time between the death of her fiancée and marriage to his brother.  It is even possible that Catelyn was not aware she was pregnant, but her DAD was because he had been alerted to the Lyssa problem.

Right. So the best possible evidence we can have, someone personally recalling in their own head, their own significant memories with no reason to lie to themselves, you just dismiss because it doesn't fit what you want?

Cat is not 'misremembering' when she thinks of her wedding night.

9 hours ago, Luddagain said:

3. 

Is a whole other discussion, but not remotely relevant here except in some fantasies.

9 hours ago, Luddagain said:

4 is simply deduction. We know that Dany is a Targ but we also know that she looks like Ashara. so the possible pairings are aerys/Ashara, Rhaegar/ashara, Rhaella/arthur. Of the three I think Rhaella and Arthur the most likely.

She looks like Ashara becasue she is young, pretty, and has purple eyes, which Ashara also had.
Ashara had dark hair, and was tall. There is no evidence that Dany and Ashara actually look alike as though they were family, just that there are some similarities in the memories of an old, infatuated, pure, knight.

9 hours ago, Luddagain said:

The trouble is that there is NOTHING in the text for any of the other theories. Read the Barriston words carefully. There is NO suggestion that it was a stark who dishonoured Ashara.

There is a suggestion in that she looked to Stark. But its not solid. Its more solid than you dismissing Starks though.

[corbon]

13 hours ago, Luddagain said:

I suspect the Daynes also worship the old gods

You mean, 'made up'?
Do you have any evidence at all to support this?

13 hours ago, Luddagain said:

2. Robb is the son of Brandon and Catelyn. he was conceived just before Brandon went riding off to chase Rhaegar, thus is about 4-8 weeks older than Jon.  I believe that Ned believed Ashara was dead -ie the fisherman died and therefore did his duty by Catelyn.

There is a lot more than 4-8 weeks between Brandon riding off and Robb being conceived, More like 4-6 months is required for all the things that need to happen happen, and also for other things to fit within the timelines.

 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

"PEOPLE OFTEN CLAIM TO HUNGER FOR  TRUTH , BUT SELDOM LIKE THE TASTE WHEN IT'S SERVED UP "    

That is a famous quote by GRRM  , with all the evidence of showing that one of his parents is either a Dayne or a Targaryen . If we follow GRRM's quote the answer is Jon is the son of Eddard and Wylla , Why ? Three different people (Eddard Stark , Edric Dayne  Godric Borrell )  separated by space  ( The North , The Three Sisters , and Dorne )  . No speculation , no wishful thinking .