Poll: Is Jon Snow the son of a Dayne?

[Platypus Rex]

3 minutes ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

"PEOPLE OFTEN CLAIM TO HUNGER FOR  TRUTH , BUT SELDOM LIKE THE TASTE WHEN IT'S SERVED UP "    

That is a famous quote by GRRM  , with all the evidence of showing that one of his parents is either a Dayne or a Targaryen . If we follow GRRM's quote the answer is Jon is the son of Eddard and Wylla , Why ? Three different people (Eddard Stark , Edric Dayne  Godric Borrell )  separated by space  ( The North , The Three Sisters , and Dorne )  . No speculation , no wishful thinking .

Shall I count that as a "No"?

[kissdbyfire]

11 hours ago, Luddagain said:

KbF

1. Pretty much yes to your questions. Now we know that Ashara was "dishonoured" at Harrenall and she had a child. Barristan is a reliable witness to that fact.  However no where in the text does it suggest it was a Stark who dishonoured her, only that in her trouble she turned to a Stark.

Missed your reply. The short and sweet version is, I make mine @corbon‘s words. 

Now to the longer version... 

We don’t actually know any of that. We get a few rumours, but nothing rock solid either way. 

Nothing in the text proves she was dishonoured by a Stark, but also nothing proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that she was in fact dishonoured. 

11 hours ago, Luddagain said:

So SOMEONE dishonoured her.

It’s possible, not gospel. 

11 hours ago, Luddagain said:

So assuming it was a character we know of at Harrenhall we have: Aerys, Raegar, Barristan, Arthur Dayne, Ned, Brandon, Benjen, Robb one of the Freys, Howland Reed . Now leaving out a stark (because of the deliberate ambiguity of GRRM's words, Arthur, and assuming the freys are not sufficiently important and assuming Barristan is noble, we are left with Robert, Rhaegar or Aerys.

We are only “left with Robert, Rhaegar or Aerys” after a whole lot of assuming stuff. Also, why leave Arthur out? I mean, this is a story chockablock full of incest, so why not? There’s nothing in the text that proves it didn’t happen, therefore it is *possible*. Right? 

11 hours ago, Luddagain said:

I read the text as a Stark helping Ashara ESCAPE her attacker.

It’s possible.

11 hours ago, Luddagain said:

I think that it was Aerys who raped Ashara.

Why do you think that?

11 hours ago, Luddagain said:

The child probably lived and would be roughly the same age as Aegon. Since her pregnancy was well known

How was it well known? 

11 hours ago, Luddagain said:

it may be assumed that she did not immediately flee but returned to court.

Sorry, but more assumptions based on... nothing? How and why “it may be assumed”? So, Ashara is raped by Aerys at Harrenhal, becomes pregnant and everyone knows about her pregnancy, and she doesn’t flee but returns to court.  To be honest, I’m not sure I even understand what you’re saying. Did she go to court pregnant? Or did she wait for the child to be born and then went to court? Does that mean she remained at Harrenhal for the duration of her pregnancy (since she “didn’t flee”)?

11 hours ago, Luddagain said:

However afterwards, ashara would have been in mortal fear of mad aerys, whom we know to have mistreated Rhaella, so presumably he would be biting and injuring Ashara.

After what? Where is her child in all of this? She’s prancing around in the court of the king who raped her, after having had his child? And now she’s afraid of the mad king? 

11 hours ago, Luddagain said:

So if it was indeed Aerys, then the Starks helped Ashara ESCAPE his clutches.

Maybe, maybe not. We will learn more eventually. 

11 hours ago, Luddagain said:

They perhaps were ALL involved and it may be the real reason that Aerys had Brandon and Rickard killed.

They who? I’m seriously confused here. I read this and thought you were suggesting that Aerys, Rickard and Brandon were all in on Ashara’s rape. But that can’t be it, because you think a Stark helped her escape Aerys. 

11 hours ago, Luddagain said:

So yes I think Ashara was possibly hiding out somewhere  first (with Lyanna and Benjen,

Where? When? Why? How? But more importantly, what made you think this? 

11 hours ago, Luddagain said:

then with Ned) calling herself Wylla). 

But... but... but... if Ashara got pregnant during the tourney at Harrenhal, then returned to court, then hid with Lyanna and Benjen, how could she be the fisherman’s daughter/“Wylla”? At this point Ned would have been fighting, not hanging out w/ a disguised Ashara Dayne. He was also already married to Cat...

And about Ned Dayne and his wet nurse? A namesake?

11 hours ago, Luddagain said:

It was Aerys who kidnapped Lyanna while seeking Ashara. 

This is before he raped Ashara? Because otherwise you’ll need a good time machine. 

11 hours ago, Luddagain said:

When the war happened  Ashara/ wylla was in the boat pretending to be the fisherman's daughter. 

See above.

11 hours ago, Luddagain said:

2.  Cat is not so much lying as misremembering. We know Brandon liked taking maidenheads so why not that of Catelyn. She was pretty much an innocent but there did not seem to be any sort of chaperoning of the Tully girls. It was a pretty short space of time between the death of her fiancée and marriage to his brother.  It is even possible that Catelyn was not aware she was pregnant, but her DAD was because he had been alerted to the Lyssa problem.

Oh please, no... Cat is absolutely and obviously not misremembering an important chain of events that had a profound impact on her life.

ACoK, Catelyn VI

“I gave Brandon my favor to wear, and never comforted Petyr once after he was wounded, nor bid him farewell when Father sent him off. And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned’s face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty.”

.

11 hours ago, Luddagain said:

3. In fact we have heard HEAPS about it if indirectly. The Mormant girls take multiple partners and their children are legitimate. Tormund seems to have several wives. The Targs have several wives as does Craster. it is ONLY the religion of the seven that imposed monogamy, and the starks do not believes in that god.

But we haven’t “heard” any of this... not the way you are trying to present it. 

11 hours ago, Luddagain said:

4 is simply deduction. We know that Dany is a Targ but we also know that she looks like Ashara. so the possible pairings are aerys/Ashara, Rhaegar/ashara, Rhaella/arthur. Of the three I think Rhaella and Arthur the most likely.

We don’t know anything of the sort. We know Dany reminds Barristan of Ashara, but that doesn’t mean the two women look alike. Check out their  physical descriptions. 

11 hours ago, Luddagain said:

The trouble is that there is NOTHING in the text for any of the other theories. Read the Barriston words carefully. There is NO suggestion that it was a stark who dishonoured Ashara.

I never disputed this, I think it’s possible it wasn’t a Stark who dishonoured Ashara. I also think it’s possible Ashara wasn’t dishonoured. And that maybe she was, and maybe it was a Stark who dishonoured her. We don’t yet have enough information to be sure either way, 

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

"PEOPLE OFTEN CLAIM TO HUNGER FOR  TRUTH , BUT SELDOM LIKE THE TASTE WHEN IT'S SERVED UP "    

That is a famous quote by GRRM  , with all the evidence of showing that one of his parents is either a Dayne or a Targaryen . If we follow GRRM's quote the answer is Jon is the son of Eddard and Wylla , Why ? Three different people (Eddard Stark , Edric Dayne  Godric Borrell )  separated by space  ( The North , The Three Sisters , and Dorne )  . No speculation , no wishful thinking .

You know, I'd love this. Chance of it being the truth is about zero, but it would be a refreshing change from hidden prince tropes. It is the only solution to who are Jon's parents that is spelled out there on the written page. Of course that is amongst its most glaring weaknesses. George would have a lot of explaining to do about just why this is even a mystery. Red herring after Red herring with the purpose of hiding what exactly?

[corbon]

3 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

"PEOPLE OFTEN CLAIM TO HUNGER FOR  TRUTH , BUT SELDOM LIKE THE TASTE WHEN IT'S SERVED UP "    

That is a famous quote by GRRM  , with all the evidence of showing that one of his parents is either a Dayne or a Targaryen . If we follow GRRM's quote the answer is Jon is the son of Eddard and Wylla , Why ? Three different people (Eddard Stark , Edric Dayne  Godric Borrell )  separated by space  ( The North , The Three Sisters , and Dorne )  . No speculation , no wishful thinking .

Err, Eddard Stark doesn't claim Wylla is Jon's mum. He merely observes that the woman Robert Baratheon is thinking of, that Robert (inaccurately) thinks is Jon's mum, that woman's name is Wylla.

Godric Borrell doesn't claim Wylla is Jon's mum. He claims that the fisherman's daughter (nameless) is Jon's mum.

Ned Dayne is the only one one that claims Wylla is Jon;s mum. And he claims Ned was bonking Wylla-the-nobody-who-became-a-wetnurse while in love with Ashara. And he, and likely his attributed source, wasn't even born at the time. 

[acwill07]

5 hours ago, corbon said:

Its not 'want'. Read and understand the text, look at it from every angle, consider the various options and likelihoods, and how they fit with what we know of actions, descriptions, characterisations, personalities and motivations.

See below.

Actually, there's no good evidence for this. 
Everything that we get that points to Ned + Ashara is supposition and guesses from people who were not actually around either of those people at that time.
Lets go through them all for you, in the order they appear in the books (apologies if I miss any, I just did a search for Ashara and used those).
First, we have Cat recollecting her little talk with Ned. She heard rumours around Winterfell, but the rumours she heard did not connect Ned and Ashara in a relationship. They were about Ned fighting Arthur, and then taking the sword to Starfall. Where there was a beautiful young maid. People, including Cat, are putting two and two together, beautiful young maid, bastard son from nowhere. But the rumours themselves don't do this. They are also not coming from people who were there. None of Ned's soldiers, or the Winterfell staff, were at ToJ, or Starfall. So the provenance of this rumour is poor and its easy to see how people get to N+A without there being any truth necessarily behind it.
You may point to Ned's response to Cat (many do), but then you should note that Ned is very specific. He warns Cat off, not talk about Ashara, but talk about Jon. He does this because Jon's origin is a dangerous secret ("Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust") and discussing it makes it more likely people will figure out the secret. Sure, Ashara's name is never heard again, but thats a byproduct of Ned's concern about Jon. Cat just draws the wrong conclusion.

Then you have Cersei talking to Ned. But she clearly doesn't know anything, she just throws several theoretical possibilities in Ned's face. She was never around Ned and Ashara together and doesn't have any direct knowledge of any feelings or relationship between them, but she does know that Ned came back from Starfall with a bastard and Ashara supposedly threw herself from a tower into the sea, so again, she's putting 2 and 2 together to suggest N+A as a possibility. Its not something she knows about though.

Then we have Ned Dayne. He claims Ned+ Ashara we in love. You'd think he might have some real knowledge. However, he also claims Ned was bonking Wylla while in love with Ashara (Wylla is Jon's mum, according to him. Thats clearly not in Ned's character (and we see from Robert that Ned was always very honourable and serious, even when he was young). So we examine Ned Dayne's story and we realise that he wasn't even born at the time. He's telling us only what he was told by his aunt Allyria. He doesn't have any real clue, and doesn't even understand how self contradictory his own story is.
So we look at Allyria. She's Ashara's own sister, surely she knows more, right? Well, it seems not. Allyria has been betrothed to young Lord Beric Dondarrion for around 6 years, but is not yet married. The usual reason for this is that she's too young to be married yet - Berics a Lord, and in his early twenties, so he's certainly old enough. And Ashara died around 16-17 years ago. So if Allyria was old enough to have talked to her directly and been a confidant of Ashara's about her love life, she'd bye late twenties by now at least, practically an old maid. Its more or less inconceivable that she is that old with a 6 year betrothal to a marriageable young Lord with good familial relations. So it turns out, Allyria is too young to have known Ned + Ashara herself. (In fact, there's a theory that she might actually be the not-really-stillborn daughter of Ashara that Barristan talks about, claimed by Asharas mother in order to prevent the stain of bastardry.) 
So this story is not just internally inconsistent and totally opposed to Ned's character, its also just a tale told by two kids who weren't around at the time. Its provenance is basically a fairly tale to make Ashara's suicide look nobly tragic, better for the 'family history'.

Then there is Harren's response to Ned Dayne's story. He says he heard the tale before, at Winterfell. But he doubts it was true. So thats a strike against.

Last we have the Reed's story where Brandon speaks to Ashara. Which doesn't say anything about Ned loving Ashara, or wanting to dance with her. Just that Brandon spoke "on behalf" of Ned, which may be at Ned's desire or at Brandon's desire. The picture we are given though is of a shy 18 yr old Ned sitting on the benches, 'missing out' on the biggest party in years. Ashara is popular and very well connected courtier, dancing with the most dashing and eligible men. Brandon (also a popular and dashing young man) convinces her to dance with Ned. I think that looks more like Brandon doing his shy little bro a favour off his own bat, you are free to think it means Ned asked Brandon to do it. What you can't claim is that it definitely means Ned asked Brandon or that Ned wanted Ashara.

In summary, we have nothing solid at all supporting N+A, just dubious rumours from people who never saw them together and mostly didn't know either of them well.

The foundation for these rumours is clear and obvious and requires no actual relationship between Ned and Ashara to start the rumours.
1. Ned takes Dawn to Starfall.
2, Ned comes away from Starfall with a bastard son which he never had before
3. The beautiful, disgraced from court, maiden of Starfall kills herself after Ned leaves with the babe.
 

There are no extenuating circumstances for such conduct, by Ned or by anyone else. This is a huge, totally life-altering thing, far more important than than it would be today, with vastly more at stake. 
Ashara did lose her position, her reputation, her life prospects, such that she supposedly committed suicide.
And yet, Ned never thinks of her.

Drinking by Robert and his mates, yes. No evidence Ned (or Ashara) drank too much.

Its obvious George has set this up as a false lead. There are many references but not a single one is remotely solid and everything we learn about Ned's character and past history screams that it is false,

Lets just call your version of Ned "No Regrets Ned" then shall we? Because he never thinks of Ashara at all. No memory of the woman he supposedly loved. No thought for how he casually destroyed her life as well as her honour.
Except, this really isn't the Ned we get to know. Who has many regrets, many secrets, cares for others, holds to honour, has always been the same character, except shyer and quieter when he was a second son with few responsibilities, not a High Lord with a very public face and responsibilities.

Well, the Reed's story clearly proves this completely false, since it outright states that Ashara danced with Ned at the behest of Brandon. So at the very least Ashara interacted directly with Brandon and agreed to do his bidding.

But most of the evidence from Brandon+Ashara comes from Barristan's thoughts, and character examinations.
Barristan thinks that Ashara 'looked to' Stark, after Harrenhal. Not clear which Stark he is talking about,or whether she 'looked to' Stark because Stark wronged her, or because Stark was someone who could help her against the person who wronged her.

More important, is this quote, from Barristan, talking about Dany:

Barristan's a knight of the Kingsguard - the old, honourable, strict sort. He loved Ashara, but never let her know, because of his vows. So how much experience does he have of young girls and the choices they make between fire and mud?
Not much.
There are two young girls we know of that Barristan has some connection with their choices of men. Dany is one, the current subject of this thought. But he thinks 'young girls always choose fire'. There must be at least one more young girl he has experience with, and she must have chosen fire. We know he has experience and was paying close attention to Ashara. Thats the other young girl he knows about in this context. So Ashara chose fire, not mud. 
Which Stark is fire, which Stark is mud. The answer is very clear.

Then as additional evidence, you have Brandon's general characterisation, from Lady Barbrey and from others who knew him and the historical record. Brandon was the wild wolf. A foolish gallant. A man who had to be held back from attacking Rhaegar (who had earlier beaten him) at Harrenhal after the QoLaB award. A man who liked a bloody sword (with both connotations). A man who already deflowered one willing noble virgin.

So, we have evidence that Brandon and Ashara successfully interacted, that Ashara did Brandon's bidding. 
We have evidence that Ashara looked to Stark, but not which one.
We have evidence that suggests Ashara chose fire over mud.
We have evidence that Ashara was disgraced from court. 
We have evidence that Brandon was the character, and had history, of disgracing a woman the way Ashara was disgraced.
We have evidence Ned is not that sort of character.
We have evidence Ned was never that sort of character.

 

All of this is assumption after assumption.  I realize that it's been 8 years between novels, but not every single thing in Martin's novel are red herrings.  The ONLY evidence that Brandon and Ashara ever had any contact at all is when Brandon asked Ashara if she would dance with Ned at the Tourney at Harrenhal.  

[corbon]

16 minutes ago, acwill07 said:

All of this is assumption after assumption.  I realize that it's been 8 years between novels, but not every single thing in Martin's novel are red herrings.  The ONLY evidence that Brandon and Ashara ever had any contact at all is when Brandon asked Ashara if she would dance with Ned at the Tourney at Harrenhal.  

No, there are no assumptions in there, only descriptions of evidence (and interpretations of what that indicates). Not assumptions. I think it more likely based on the evidence in the text that Brandon had a relationship with Ashara than that Ned had a relationship with Ashara. I don't take it as fact.

Assuming, that all the people who repeat rumours about Ashara and Ned are talking about something they know as fact, thats an assumption.

[White Ravens]

6 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

"PEOPLE OFTEN CLAIM TO HUNGER FOR  TRUTH , BUT SELDOM LIKE THE TASTE WHEN IT'S SERVED UP "    

That is a famous quote by GRRM  , with all the evidence of showing that one of his parents is either a Dayne or a Targaryen . If we follow GRRM's quote the answer is Jon is the son of Eddard and Wylla , Why ? Three different people (Eddard Stark , Edric Dayne  Godric Borrell )  separated by space  ( The North , The Three Sisters , and Dorne )  . No speculation , no wishful thinking .

Is that a famous quote by GRRM?  Or is that a famous quote of something a character of his said in one of his books?

[Luddagain]

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not sure if this is in full cotext but

"We don’t actually know any of that. We get a few rumours, but nothing rock solid either way. " 

Absolutely but that is the case with just about everything in the books

"Nothing in the text proves she was dishonoured by a Stark, but also nothing proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that she was in fact dishonoured. "

I think in the book there are some witnesses that we can believe although we recognise that they may sometimes be fooled or have insufficient information. Barristan is one of those. He loved Ashara and therefore had no reason to be lying or pretending about Ashara having a child. indeed he spoke of it in a fairly matter of fact sort of way, as if the entire court knew of Ashara's situation. He is clear about the birth of a baby. He believes the girl to have been still born BUT, that is exactly the sort of information that a MAN may not know - only the midwives in the room would really know what happened and even the mother might not know. So the public story is that Ashara's girl died but she could have been a he, the baby may have been smuggled away for safety or even as one theory has it, was switched for Alia's dead baby. However as to her pregnancy Barristan spoke as if it was accepted common knowledge.

As for being dishonoured then yes she was since she was unmarried and pregnant, but of course being Dornish this is not such an issue as for most others in the seven kingdoms. the term dishonoured does not necessarily imply rape, but simply the act of 'deflowering" a virgin girl, whether willing or not.   read some Regency romantic novels and you will get the picture.

Then there is the issue of who did the dishonoring. I do accept that i made quite a few assumptions about the who. But first let us just accept that she WAS pregnant and that Barristan had some sort of reason to assume she "turned to stark." I accept that it is quite possible that one of the Starks left her pregnant but i think that GRRM's deliberate ambiguity probably indicates that it was NOT a stark that did the dishonoring.  Moreover, while Brandon is a possible father to her child, it seems hard to believe that he would not have married her - the most beautiful girl around and very eligible. In the case of Ned even more so. there is NOWAY that an 18 year old Ned would not have married Ashara if he impregnated her at Harrenhall.

Arthur Dayne is set up as a role model - he would not be into incest. He is a foil for Jaime. GRRM is a good writer so I think the father will be someone important in the story - not some unknown young knight etc.  So of those remaining i just think Aerys the MOST likely, because should she have fallen for the others she would not really have needed "help". Bastards were common enough. she would have returned home where the child would be cared for or fostered out. She would have then married - not as great a marriage as she might have aspired to but some rich aging widower would have taken her on. She would however need to flee Aerys just to protect herself and the child. possibly also she would be afraid if Rhaegar was the father - more because of aerys than Rhaegar.

As for where she went, after the Harrenhall incident, well it is assumed that she continued on as lady in waiting to Elia, for some months - a pregnancy can be concealed for 3- 6 months quite easily. After that then the inner court might know the secret, but essentially only those close to Elia would be in a position to see her much. After all Elia was also pregnant, so the two ladies had a good excuse not to parade about too much.

Obviously I am NOT thinking any starks were complicit. i am suggesting that because starks helped her escape. mad King areys had the elder two murdered.

I think you have not fully considered time lines. OK we know that Aegon was born about the same time as Ashara's baby, around about 18 months before the events of the ToJ and 6 months before the start of the war. So after the birth of the baby there were 4-6 months for Ashara to flee before the war began. perhaps if Aerys started pestering her again she chose to flee. She may have turned to a Stark - Brandon, Benjen Ned or Lyanna.

 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

23 hours ago, Luddagain said:

4 is simply deduction. We know that Dany is a Targ but we also know that she looks like Ashara. so the possible pairings are aerys/Ashara, Rhaegar/ashara, Rhaella/arthur. Of the three I think Rhaella and Arthur the most likely.

Dany also looks a bit like Lynesse Hightower according to Jorah. So maybe Ashara had a go at old Leyton Hightower while she was at it. 

There is no mystery about who Dany's parents are. And I don't understand why some readers are making it a mystery or why Arthur Dayne is lumped into this as being Dany's father.

All of this ignores the story that GRRM has taken painstaking time to lay out.

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, Luddagain said:

I think in the book there are some witnesses that we can believe although we recognise that they may sometimes be fooled or have insufficient information.

That’s just it, we don’t have any actual witnesses. We have recollections about some rumours by charteres who weren’t there like Catelyn, Harwin, Ned Dayne, and we have Barristan thinking back on the Harrenhal tourney and thinking if he’d beaten Rhaegar he’d have crowned Ashara the QoLaB, and that maybe then Ashara would have looked to him instead of Stark. 

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Barristan is one of those. He loved Ashara and therefore had no reason to be lying or pretending about Ashara having a child. indeed he spoke of it in a fairly matter of fact sort of way, as if the entire court knew of Ashara's situation. He is clear about the birth of a baby. He believes the girl to have been still born BUT, that is exactly the sort of information that a MAN may not know - only the midwives in the room would really know what happened and even the mother might not know. So the public story is that Ashara's girl died but she could have been a he, the baby may have been smuggled away for safety or even as one theory has it, was switched for Alia's dead baby. However as to her pregnancy Barristan spoke as if it was accepted common knowledge.

There’s really not much about it.

ADwD, The Kingbreaker

“Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara’s smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter …
But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well.”

So, in reality, Barristan “knows” as much as Cersei, and there’s no way of knowing how he came about this “knowledge”. 

And to take it a step further... if Ashara got pregnant at Harrenhal, she wouldn’t be showing for several months, as you point out. Did she go to KL after the tourney, or did she go to Starfall? Could she have gone elsewhere (since she wasn’t nailed to the floor)?

From the same chapter: 

“His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia’s companions …”

And from Martin: 

As a matter of fact (a tiny tidbit from SOS), she was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar.

It’s impossible to be sure at this point, but because she was in Elia’s service “in the first few years” of Elia and Rhaegar’s marriage, there’s a good chance she didn’t go to KL after the tourney. 

Not sure if I’m forgetting something, but don’t think so. 

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As for being dishonoured then yes she was since she was unmarried and pregnant, but of course being Dornish this is not such an issue as for most others in the seven kingdoms. the term dishonoured does not necessarily imply rape, but simply the act of 'deflowering" a virgin girl, whether willing or not.   read some Regency romantic novels and you will get the picture.

Barristan thinks Ashara was “dishonoured”, yes. Barristan, who is a dutiful and slightly prudish knight, thinking back on his biggest regret. That doesn’t mean she actually was. 

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Then there is the issue of who did the dishonoring. I do accept that i made quite a few assumptions about the who. But first let us just accept that she WAS pregnant and that Barristan had some sort of reason to assume she "turned to stark."

As you can probably tell by now, I’m not even sold on the dishonouring yet... and sure, she may have been pregnant but no one would know of this pregnancy, if she became pregnant at Harrenhal. 

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I accept that it is quite possible that one of the Starks left her pregnant but i think that GRRM's deliberate ambiguity probably indicates that it was NOT a stark that did the dishonoring. 

I think Martin phrases it the way he does to leave it doubly ambiguous...

a) was it a Stark who dishonoured her (if she was indeed dishonoured), or did she seek the help of a Stark? 

b) was this Stark Ned or Brandon?

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Moreover, while Brandon is a possible father to her child, it seems hard to believe that he would not have married her - the most beautiful girl around and very eligible.

Except for the fact that he had been betrothed to Catelyn for years at that point, and w/ a wedding date set for not long after the tourney. 

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In the case of Ned even more so. there is NOWAY that an 18 year old Ned would not have married Ashara if he impregnated her at Harrenhall.

As I’ve said a few times, if Ned got Ashara pregnant at Harrenhal he wouldn’t have  known it immediately. No one would, not even Ashara herself. 

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Arthur Dayne is set up as a role model - he would not be into incest. He is a foil for Jaime. GRRM is a good writer so I think the father will be someone important in the story - not some unknown young knight etc. 

We have several examples of good men and women who practiced incest. It’s disgusting for us - or should be - but not for them, clearly. 

At any rate, I was just being cheeky and trying to show that having no proof it didn’t happen doesn’t make it likely or even a “theory”. It only means it’s one of millions of things the author didn’t feel the need to explicitly tell the reader didn’t happen. 

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So of those remaining i just think Aerys the MOST likely, because should she have fallen for the others she would not really have needed "help". Bastards were common enough. she would have returned home where the child would be cared for or fostered out. She would have then married - not as great a marriage as she might have aspired to but some rich aging widower would have taken her on.

This is bordering on fan fiction.

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She would however need to flee Aerys just to protect herself and the child. possibly also she would be afraid if Rhaegar was the father - more because of aerys than Rhaegar.

As for where she went, after the Harrenhall incident, well it is assumed that she continued on as lady in waiting to Elia, for some months - a pregnancy can be concealed for 3- 6 months quite easily. After that then the inner court might know the secret, but essentially only those close to Elia would be in a position to see her much. After all Elia was also pregnant, so the two ladies had a good excuse not to parade about too much.

I’ve addressed this above.

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Obviously I am NOT thinking any starks were complicit. i am suggesting that because starks helped her escape. mad King areys had the elder two murdered.

Ok.

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I think you have not fully considered time lines. OK we know that Aegon was born about the same time as Ashara's baby, around about 18 months before the events of the ToJ and 6 months before the start of the war. So after the birth of the baby there were 4-6 months for Ashara to flee before the war began. perhaps if Aerys started pestering her again she chose to flee. She may have turned to a Stark - Brandon, Benjen Ned or Lyanna.

And I think you didn’t really think the timelines through. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree for now, and wait until we have more information. 

[LordMarek]

No.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

On 2/19/2019 at 11:05 AM, kissdbyfire said:

There is norhing there connecting any of the players and Harrenhal, or a tourney, or even hinting at Ned and Ashara having met previously. 

I haven't finished the thread yet, and honestly it is pretty hard to follow the back and forth, but Meera's telling of the Knight of the Laughing Tree puts Ned and Ashara together at Harrenhal and that it is a well known tale in the Neck:

"The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench."

Ned had a crush on Ashara, and danced with her.

Ned is called the quiet wolf, and Jon (and Ghost) is the quiet wolf. 

"The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words."

"Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?" Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?"

"Well, he has more than you, for a start."

 

Ned had lusts.  The word "willa" (wylla) is a synonym for "lust."  Metaphorically, Jon's mother was "lust."  Ned associates Jon's face with these lusts that filled him with a sense of shame and sorrow.

Jon is Ned's son.  N + A = J

In book 1 Cat brought Ashara up, and Ned flew off the handle: "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood . . . Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely "

In book 2 Cat mentions Jon being Ashara's son.  "If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered,"

In book 3 Ned Dayne mentions Ned and Ashara fell in love at Harrenhal, and that Wylla/Ashara is Jon's mother, and that Ned broke her heart and she killed herself. 

If Ned Stark really killed Arthur Dayne, and dishonored Ashara and drove her to suicide, why would the Daynes name one of their kids after him?  And share a wet nurse with someone who killed their beloved Sword of the Morning?  Makes no sense.  (Also, the Sword of the Morning constellation has a shining star in its hilt, so does Longclaw.)

 

On 2/19/2019 at 11:05 AM, kissdbyfire said:

Then later,  Harwin talks to Arya about Ned & Ashara maybe having had a fling at Harrenhal. But they're not talking about Jon's mum.  Ned has just told her that Wylla is Jon's mother. Then they talk about Ashara, Arya takes off and  Harwin talks to her - trying to reassure her that her mum wasn't dishonoured - and talks about the tourney and how back then it was Brandon who was engaged to Cat. 

 

If Wylla was at Winterfell nursing Jon, why would the story about Jon's parentage be that Ashara was the mother?  How would Ashara's name come into it at all?  Wylla must have said "I am not the mother."

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"Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It's an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now." He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. "I doubt there's any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there's no stain on your father's honor. There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged."

 

In book 5 Barriston confirms a Ned and Ashara love affair, with pregnancy, though he says it was stillborn and she killed herself:

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Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

I think Ashara went into hiding, and the baby is Jon.

 

 

At Harrenhal Howland meets Lyanna, she saves him from the squires, and befriends him, and later Howland happens to marry someone named Jyana,--one letter away from Lyanna.  Lyanna is Jyana.  Lyanna is hiding at Greywater Watch.  The Reed kids repeated ask Bran if he is sure he has never heard this story, as if there is a very personal connection between this story and the Starks. 

It would be a nice parallel between generations:

Ned and Howland were buddies, slept in the same tent, went on an adventure, Howland fell in love with Lyanna.  Bran and Jojen were buddies, went on an adventure, Bran fell in love with Meera.

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

20 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

I haven't finished the thread yet, and honestly it is pretty hard to follow the back and forth, but Meera's telling of the Knight of the Laughing Tree puts Ned and Ashara together at Harrenhal and that it is a well known tale in the Neck:

"The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench."

You do realise I was talking specifically about the rumour Cat heard at Winterfell, right?

20 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Ned had a crush on Ashara, and danced with her.

There’s no proof of that whatsoever. At this point it’s only one of several possibilities. 

20 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Ned is called the quiet wolf, and Jon (and Ghost) is the quiet wolf. 

"The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words."

"Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?" Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?"

"Well, he has more than you, for a start."

 

Ned had lusts.  The word "willa" (wylla) is a synonym for "lust."  Metaphorically, Jon's mother was "lust."  Ned associates Jon's face with these lusts that filled him with a sense of shame and sorrow.

Jon is Ned's son.  N + A = J

No, he’s not. But hey, you think he is? Fill your boots.

Eventually we will have the facts, until then all we can do is interpret the text in our own different ways. 

20 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

In book 1 Cat brought Ashara up, and Ned flew off the handle: "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood . . . Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely "

Yes, “whoever”. 

20 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

In book 2 Cat mentions Jon being Ashara's son.  "If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered,"

No, she doesn’t, she thinks about the possibility, as the quote you provided shows. And you could have given the whole quote, where Catelyn’s thoughts continue... 

“the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be.”

 

20 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

In book 3 Ned Dayne mentions Ned and Ashara fell in love at Harrenhal, and that Wylla/Ashara is Jon's mother, and that Ned broke her heart and she killed herself. 

Nope, you’re either twisting the text or misremembering. Ned Dayne very clearly and unequivocally tells Arya his wetnurse Wylla is Jon’s mum. Later he tells her Ned had a fling/was in love w/ his aunt Ashara.

20 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

If Ned Stark really killed Arthur Dayne, and dishonored Ashara and drove her to suicide, why would the Daynes name one of their kids after him?  And share a wet nurse with someone who killed their beloved Sword of the Morning?  Makes no sense.  (Also, the Sword of the Morning constellation has a shining star in its hilt, so does Longclaw.)

The truth is, we don’t actually know how Ned killed Dayne, we absolutely don’t know for a fact that he dishonoured Ashara, and we definitely don’t know if she committed suicide, or even whether she’s actually dead. And the Daynes didn’t name anyone Eddard. For all we know, Ned may be used as a nickname for different names, or maybe there’s another explanation. I don’t know, but neither do you. Not until we get a reliable character telling the whole story, sort of like, “and then, we/they/decided to name you/him after Ned Stark”. 

20 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

If Wylla was at Winterfell nursing Jon, why would the story about Jon's parentage be that Ashara was the mother?  How would Ashara's name come into it at all?  Wylla must have said "I am not the mother."

Huh? Firstly, when Cat arrives w/ baby Robb, Ned’s there w/ baby Jon and “a” wetnurnse. It’s never stated that this wetnurnse was Wylla. 

Secondly, the text clearly says how Ashara’s name came up. I provided the quote already, and iirc, in the post you replied to, if you wanna refresh your memory. 

20 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

In book 5 Barriston confirms a Ned and Ashara love affair, with pregnancy, though he says it was stillborn and she killed herself:

He does nothing of the sort. Actually, not even close to that. 

20 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

I think Ashara went into hiding, and the baby is Jon.

I don’t see it, but we’ll know one day! 

 

20 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

At Harrenhal Howland meets Lyanna, she saves him from the squires, and befriends him, and later Howland happens to marry someone named Jyana,--one letter away from Lyanna.  Lyanna is Jyana.  Lyanna is hiding at Greywater Watch.  The Reed kids repeated ask Bran if he is sure he has never heard this story, as if there is a very personal connection between this story and the Starks. 

One question: what exactly made you reach this conclusion? 

20 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

It would be a nice parallel between generations:

Ned and Howland were buddies, slept in the same tent, went on an adventure, Howland fell in love with Lyanna.  Bran and Jojen were buddies, went on an adventure, Bran fell in love with Meera.

How? Where and when did Ned and Howland travelled together and met w/ Lyanna? Or was HR in love w/ her since Harrenhal, and the whole thing about her disappearance triggering a brutal war was just coz she was hanging out at GW? These are genuine questions btw, because I’m struggling to understand the ideas here. 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Quote

"The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench."

Ned had a crush on Ashara, and danced with her. 

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

There’s no proof of that whatsoever. At this point it’s only one of several possibilities. 

 

I do not think you are being honest here, nor with the rest of your reply--haughty derision is not an argument. 

Brandon is the "wild wolf,"

Ned is the "quiet wolf,"

Lyanna is the "she-wolf/wolf maid," and

Benjen is the "wolf pup"    

Ashara danced with Ned, but only after Brandon spoke to her on Ned's behalf.  Ned wanted to dance with her, but was too shy to ask.  In my book, that is a crush.  Boys are not afraid to ask out girls they aren't romantically interested in--like asking your grandma to dance.

What are the other possibilities?

 

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

 

I do not think you are being honest here, nor with the rest of your reply--haughty derision is not an argument. 

Brandon is the "wild wolf,"

Ned is the "quiet wolf,"

Lyanna is the "she-wolf/wolf maid," and

Benjen is the "wolf pup"    

Ashara danced with Ned, but only after Brandon spoke to her on Ned's behalf.  Ned wanted to dance with her, but was too shy to ask.  In my book, that is a crush.  Boys are not afraid to ask out girls they aren't romantically interested in--like asking your grandma to dance.

What are the other possibilities?

 

Excuse me? I have a different take on it and that means I’m not being honest? Really? 

And that’s because... your interpretation is the one true interpretation, and the rest is rubbish, I imagine. 

There are other ways of interpreting the text here, and they’ve been laid out by others better than I could hope to do. IIRC, @corbon authored one such, maybe yesterday. 

 

[corbon]

15 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

I haven't finished the thread yet, and honestly it is pretty hard to follow the back and forth, but Meera's telling of the Knight of the Laughing Tree puts Ned and Ashara together at Harrenhal and that it is a well know tale in the Neck:

Well, Meera and Jojen know it. That doesn't mean its well known in the Neck.

15 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

"The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench."

Ned had a crush on Ashara, and danced with her.

Thats possible. Although he was too shy to leave his bench.
But it does not specifically say Ned had any interest in Ashara, only that Brandon asked Ashara to dance with Ned. 'On behalf of' can mean 'at the request of' or can mean 'for the good of'. 

Also possible is that Ned had no interest in Ashara, but Brandon decided he was missing out on the party and got Ashara to ask Ned to dance, which he couldn't gracefully refuse.

The things we know from this passage are:
 - Ned was too shy to leave his bench (could be in general, could be of Ashara in particular)
 - Brandon asked Ashara to dance with Ned
 - Ashara and Ned did dance
 - Ashara also danced with a number of other mean, apparently including her brother (white sword), Oberyn Martell (red snake) and Jon Connington (Lord of Griffons).

15 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

"The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words."

Yep. Ned hasn;t told Jon the truth. 
The shame and sorrow don't have to be about Ned and Jon;s mother, they can be about what Ned has taken from Jon, too. And sorrow for his sister Lyanna.

15 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

"Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?" Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?"

Yep. Jon is treated badly as a bastard. Whether he is or not. And looks like Ned. Or like Arya, who looks like Lyanna, Ned's sister.

Ned probably even believes he is a bastard - Rhaegar's bastard. 

15 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Ned had lusts.  The word "willa" (wylla) is a synonym for "lust."  Metaphorically, Jon's mother was "lust."  Ned associates Jon's face with these lusts that filled him with a sense of shame and sorrow.

Did he? We aren't told so anywhere. Robert had lusts. Rhaegar perhaps had lusts, in Ned's mind. Ned does not think of his own lusts at any time, nor associate them with Jon, shame or sorrow.

15 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

In book 1 Cat brought Ashara up, and Ned flew off the handle: "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood . . . Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely "

Right. Note how its Jon that he's concerned about. Not Ashara.
Why is that? Because its no big deal for anyone, not even Ned (as Harwin says), if the world knows N+A=J.
But its a huge deal if people are thinking about Jon's mother and realise R+L=J. Huge deal a in the death and destruction of Ned and all his family for harbouring dragonspawn.
"Some secrets are too dangerous to share even with those you love and trust."

15 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

In book 2 Cat mentions Jon being Ashara's son.  "If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered,"

Yep. If. Cat doesn't know. She's put the same 2+2 together as everyone else, and come up with teh same thought.
Ned took Dawn to Starfall.
Ned came away from Starfall with a bastard son.
The beautiful maid of Starfall, known to have been disgraced from court, apparently klled herself when Ned left with the bastard.

15 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

In book 3 Ned Dayne mentions Ned and Ashara fell in love at Harrenhal, and that Wylla/Ashara is Jon's mother, and that Ned broke her heart and she killed herself. 

Not quite. Ned Dayne says Wylla, not Ashara, is Jon's mum. Wylla is clearly not Ashara. Ashara killed herself. Wylla is still alive and wet-nursed young Ned years later, making him milk brothers with Jon.

15 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

If Ned Stark really killed Arthur Dayne, and dishonored Ashara and drove her to suicide, why would the Daynes name one of their kids after him? 

First, they didn't. His name is Edric, not Eddard. They have the same abbreviated nickname, not the same name. Its like Algernon and Albert both being called Al.

Second, lets examine your statement.
Although he killed Arthur, it was honourable combat in wartime. Outside a few extremes like Lord Karstark, thats not something to hate about. 
More importantly, he returned Dawn to the Daynes, something he didn't need to do. Thats enormous, for the Daynes more than any other house are defined by that unique sword and its role in their living history. They have a huge huge reason to respect Ned Stark.
Hang on, its you claiming he dishonoured Ashara and drove her to suicide. We are claiming he didn't dishonour her at all. So you are arguing against your own case here!
You think she committed suicide? Good for you. I think she was reported as committing suicide.

15 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

And share a wet nurse with someone who killed their beloved Sword of the Morning? 

The wetnurse is shared between Jon and Edric. 
The wetnurse, Wylla, is very likely to have been at the ToJ. Or from somewhere nearby, in Dorne. Or in your scenario, from Starfall. When Ned found Jon (at ToJ or Starfall) he would need a wetnurse immediately.

That aside, Ned returned Dawn. Thats far far more important to the Daynes than that he killed Arthur - someone who as a KG was destined to die in service of his king and in many ways no longer tied to House Dayne. Arthurs end is something for the Daynes to be proud of, not horrified by. 

15 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

If Wylla was at Winterfell nursing Jon, why would the story about Jon's parentage be that Ashara was the mother?  How would Ashara's name come into it at all?  Wylla must have said "I am not the mother."

No. She didn't need to say anything. She just the wetnurse. Its only the Daynes who think she is the mother - most likely because Ned brought her to Starfall with Jon and Dawn, from the ToJ.

15 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

In book 5 Barriston confirms a Ned and Ashara love affair, with pregnancy, though he says it was stillborn and she killed herself:

No he does not.
He confirms that after Harrenhal Ashara 'looked to' Stark. He does not confirm that she was in an affair with Ned, or even with a Stark.
He believes she had a stillborn child. That doesn't make it true. She was disgraced from court, probably due to her pregnancy. BArristan would not have any actual knowledge of what happened to her after that, except what he has been told by others, which could be true or false.

15 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

I think Ashara went into hiding, and the baby is Jon.

I too think she went into hiding. But not with her baby, with her friend Elia's. We'll see if thats true or not eventually.

I suspect her baby was taken by her mother, and raised as her sister, Allyria, but there's not a lot of evidence for that. She may have actually had a stillborn child.

15 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

At Harrenhal Howland meets Lyanna, she saves him from the squires, and befriends him, and later Howland happens to marry someone named Jyana,--one letter away from Lyanna.  Lyanna is Jyana.  Lyanna is hiding at Greywater Watch.  The Reed kids repeated ask Bran if he is sure he has never heard this story, as if there is a very personal connection between this story and the Starks. 

I don;t believe there is any connection between Jyana and Lyanna. No more so than between Rhaegar (Targaryen) and Rhaegar (Frey) for example.

The Reed kids (actually, only Jojen, as has been pointed out to me) expect Bran to know Meera's story because its essentially about his Aunt, Lyanna and her greatest deed.

 

[corbon]

17 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Ashara danced with Ned, but only after Brandon spoke to her on Ned's behalf.  Ned wanted to dance with her, but was too shy to ask.  In my book, that is a crush.  Boys are not afraid to ask out girls they aren't romantically interested in--like asking your grandma to dance.

What are the other possibilities?

See my other post. 
Also, some boys, many boys, are afraid to ask any girl to dance, whether interested in them or not. Some aren't really interested in dancing.

Ned wasn't just shy of Ashara, he was too shy to leave his bench.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Excuse me? I have a different take on it and that means I’m not being honest? Really? 

And that’s because... your interpretation is the one true interpretation, and the rest is rubbish, I imagine. 

Your writing style seems to be using extreme hyperbole in order to shut people down who disagree with you--you are doing it here again. 

I do not have a dog in this fight, this morning was the first time I have even given serious consideration to this topic, and with fresh eyes, this was my interpretation of events in the books.  Just pointing out passages that I didn't see people focusing on, and as naive as I am, I thought you would find my quote pulls helpful.

I posed what I thought was a non-controvertial interpretation of events--that Ned danced with Ashara, but was afraid to make the first move because he thought she was hot and he was too shy to ask, and you replied with "There is no evidence of that whatsoever"--Which took me aback, because there is some amount of evidence, even if it was somewhat ambiguous, and made me think you were just trying to flame me.

Then later you essentially said I am full of shit, and am cherry-picking quotes to fit my agenda.   

 

[kissdbyfire]

30 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Your writing style seems to be using extreme hyperbole in order to shut people down who disagree with you--you are doing it here again. 

Oh please, come on. Extreme hyperbole, really? And to shut people down? There is zero hints at Ned being in love with Ashara IMO. This may be due to the way I interpreted the text or not. I have always, from the start, understood that scene basically as Ned is a wallflower, and his dashing older brother asks the prettiest lady at the feast to dance w/ his quiet and shy brother. You interpret it differently, and fair enough. The difference is, I’m fully prepared to admit I was wrong, whereas you shut down disagreement by calling others dishonest and extremely hyperbolic. To each their own. 

 

Quote

I do not have a dog in this fight, this morning was the first time I have even given serious consideration to this topic, and with fresh eyes, this was my interpretation of events in the books.  Just pointing out passages that I didn't see people focusing on, and as naive as I am, I thought you would find my quote pulls helpful.

Good for your dog, since dog fights are barbaric.

Quote

I posed what I thought was a non-controvertial interpretation of events--that Ned danced with Ashara,

On this we can agree. Ned having danced w/ Ashara is non-controversial and something .i never disputed. 

Quote

but was afraid to make the first move because he thought she was hot and he was too shy to ask, and you replied with "There is no evidence of that whatsoever"--

Read that exchange again. You made a statement, “Ned had a crush on Ashara” (and danced with her). I said, there’s no proof of that whatsoever. And there isn’t - and I’m not talking about the dance, but the infatuation. He never once thinks about Ashara. Also, if Ned and Ashara are Jon’s parents, why the secrecy? Why not tell Cat at the very least? Ashara is dead for all anyone knows, and the world accepts that Jon is his bastard, so, what gives? 

Quote

Which took me aback, because there is some amount of evidence, even if it was somewhat ambiguous, and made me think you were just trying to flame me.

Then later you essentially said I am full of shit, and am cherry-picking quotes to fit my agenda.   

 

Oh wow. Did you really read what I said as me trying to flame you and saying you’re full of shit? No wonder this discussion is going nowhere, we are clearly not connecting here. 

 

[Platypus Rex]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Oh please, come on. Extreme hyperbole, really? And to shut people down? There is zero hints at Ned being in love with Ashara IMO. 

There are zero hints of Ned being in love with Ashara?  How can one even have a conversation?  Maybe these clues are in fact red herrings, but they are there.  Maybe "hyperbole" is the wrong word, but it seems to me you will say anything.