Poll: Is Jon Snow the son of a Dayne?

[Platypus Rex]

21 hours ago, corbon said:

No shame in having an opinion and supporting it as best you can, but you yourself admitted you hadn't followed the thread properly.

Hi Corbon.  Allow me to put in a word edgewise here.  I started this thread in order to invite people to express their opinions.  That includes unorthodox and unpopular opinions.  As far as I am concerned, nobody is required or expected to read the entire thread before expressing any opinions here.   

I am not a mod and have no authority.  I'm just reminding you why I started the thread.

21 hours ago, corbon said:

The main problem i think is that I'd just addressed pretty much everything you quoted quite thoroughly, here.

He isn't required to read that either.  Not in my opinion, anyway.

21 hours ago, corbon said:

And the way you posted much of it wasn't as opinion, or interpretation, it was as bald statement of fact. 

My purpose in creating this thread was to invite people to go out on a limb and state their opinions "as fact".  The fact/opinion distinction is not very meaningful anyhow, especially in this context.  And it seems to me it is a piss-poor excuse for telling people they are not entitled to their opinions.  Come off it.  We all know we are discussing opinions.  It does not have to be constantly spelled out; nor should the failure to spell it out be an excuse for personalized attacks.

21 hours ago, corbon said:

Also, be very clear about the difference between evidence and proof. 

It is impossible to be "very clear" about the difference between evidence and proof.  They are both very fuzzy terms, and neither are, or can be, absolute.  In my field, they are essentially synonyms.  "Proof" has a rather stronger connotation than "evidence", but, even so, "proof" is almost never absolute or undeniable.  And, while "proof" has a much stronger connotation in many contexts, I would say the distinction is virtually invisible in the context of phrases like "no proof whatsoever".

kissdbyfire has now clarified that by "no proof whatsoever" she meant something very different than "no evidence whatsoever".  I believe in allowing people to clarify their own words and positions, so I accept this.  That does not mean I agree that the original confusion was 100% the fault of By Odin's Beard.

21 hours ago, corbon said:

You started with the 'dishonest' and 'haughty' shit. 

Seems very much a case of noob walks half-armed into the middle of a discussion, gets a time-short response, misinterprets several things both within the subject matter and the discussion, and feeling slighted starts slinging insults. 

Seems to me you are being far nastier than By Odin's Beard ever was.  He started it?  What are you?  Two years old?

I started this thread in part so "noobs", and others, could just walk into the middle of the discussion, and express their opinions.  You are entitled to express yours as well.  

However, I would appreciate a little less arrogance and condescension from the usual crowd of orthodoxy-enforcers and self-appointed experts.  That includes you.

Thank you.

[corbon]

54 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The quote doesn't exist in a vacuum. There's a context to it.

"We may not have a fortnight. We not have a day. The king mentioned something about seeing my head on a spike." Ned frowned. He did not truly believe the king would harm him, not Robert. He was angry now, but once Ned was safely out of sight, his rage would cool as it always did.

Always? Suddenly, uncomfortable, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion . . . (Eddard VIII, AGoT 33)

Ned's reflecting about Robert's hatred of Rhaegar is tied directly to the fight they had about Dany during the small council and his own predicament with Robert because all of a sudden, he's not so sure that Robert will be as forgiving toward him.

Yep. Thats why I noted that although Robert wasn't around, he was in Ned's mind at the time.

54 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Ned mentions Rhaegar before the thought we're discussing when he tells Robert that he never knew him to fear Rhaegar.

In any case, you and I will not agree on this and that's totally fine.

All I did was point out that Ned is not being factually accurate when he thinks he's not remembered Rhaegar in years. Its not literally important, but its a clue. It shows that what Ned means by this is clearly not 'never thought about Rhaegar, period' because he explicitly did several times before on page for us, for whatever reason. Instead he must mean something more limited, perhaps 'never thought about Rhaegar the man, the person' as opposed to Rhaegar, the Targaryen Crown Prince, our enemy.
And that's relevant because this is I think the first time he's showing us a moral judgement of Rhaegar. He's thinking about Rhaegar the man, not Rhaegar the enemy prince. And oddly, its favourable - even more oddly, in direct contrast to his best friend and king.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

17 minutes ago, corbon said:

And that's relevant because this is I think the first time he's showing us a moral judgement of Rhaegar. He's thinking about Rhaegar the man, not Rhaegar the enemy prince. And oddly, its favourable - even more oddly, in direct contrast to his best friend and king.

I thought I had written that, but I erased it. You won't be getting any disagreement on this from me.

[Clegane'sPup]

Since there is talk of Eddard's memories I though I might interject what Eddard thought as Eddard walked to the dying King Bob ---

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII     The royal apartments were in Maegor's Holdfast, a massive square fortress that nestled in the heart of the Red Keep behind walls twelve feet thick and a dry moat lined with iron spikes, a castle-within-a-castle.    Ser Boros Blount guarded the far end of the bridge, white steel armor ghostly in the moonlight.     Within, Ned passed two other knights of the Kingsguard;    Ser Preston Greenfield stood at the bottom of the steps,     and Ser Barristan Selmy waited at the door of the king's bedchamber.     Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him. Ser Barristan's face was as pale as his armor. Ned had only to look at him to know that something was dreadfully wrong./

Don't know what it means other than some sort of Eddard reference to Rhaegar's tower of joy. 

[Morte]

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Don’t you think there are different ways of interpreting the text as it pertains to the examples you give here? 

 

But of course. There are just little hints, they all can be part of the Red Herring, or point toward people reading too much in small gestures.

7 hours ago, corbon said:

I has happily in the N+A (though not for Jon) might have fallen in love at Harrenhal even if they did nothing about it camp, until ADwD. The new data in that, mostly from Barristan about Ashara, and also the way in retrospect Barristan seemed to still have respect for Ned, convinced me that neither Ashara chose Ned, nor Ned was her lover and failed her.

More new data might change that again, though I'd be surprised, given what we have now.

7 hours ago, corbon said:

Now if the Daynes thought Ashara was Jon's mother, then I could agree with you. She could be his human mistake. But they don't. They know that Ashara is not Jon's mother. They, who don't know Ned, think that Ned was in love with Ashara but bonking Wylla. I can see a man like Ned failing his own standards for love. I could see Ned failing duty for a tumble, once (as Robert suggests). I can't see Ned failing love for a tumble. 

Ned is clearly not a robot, and admits to many mistakes and many regrets. I just can't see either this type of mistake, or no regret or admittance of it.

That's why I said N+D=J would be very unlikely, because I also simply can't see Ned taking the baby away from Ashara and by this indirectly causing her suicide; this would truly be completely out of character for Ned as we know him. And of course the Daynes wouldn't hold Ned in such high regards if such a thing happened. So I am still in the A+N=crush-camp, albeit I don't think they ever did more then maybe share a kiss, if even.

And I do think the Daynes do know, or at least guessed the babies mother and father then Ned arrived at Starfall, but went with Ned's version of the story. And the truth is not a thing you tell a little boy.

7 hours ago, corbon said:

And its possible. We just agree to disagree that the text gives us this.

Yes, we have. We'll see if we ever get any new information on that subject.

 

 

[Luddagain]

I think we need always to sort out what is fact, what is rumour and what is the limited understanding of a child.

Now Ned Dayne thinks that Ashara and Ned Stark were in love, and that must be the general opinion of his family.  Now clearly the Daynes respect Ned because they CHOSE to call their boy Edrik aka Ned ie a name from the north and in the Stark tradition and with the SAME shortening.  I think that from this we can deduce that whatever was between Bed and Ashara it was not dishonourable or at least not with intent. There are plenty of other names to choose for the Dayne heir yet they chose Ned. The young Ned wanted to speak with Ned Stark but was too shy, however he clearly respected him.

Now this does not mean that Ned was bonking Ashara but clearly there was a close friendship.

Now the second idea is that Ned was bonking Wylla the maid. However since the INTENT of the Wylla story was to protect the true identity of Jon, the Ned/Wylla story was almost certainly put about as a cover. Edrik Dayne believed it because that is what he had been told. He cannot have witnessed it since he is too young.

Now I am perfectly prepared to believe that their IS a child between Ned and Ashara, but it is not easy to see just who such a child would be.

In my opinion Jon is the MOST likely BUT that would not explain why his identity was kept secret from Robert. So I am torn.

Jon being the son of Arthur and Lyanna is an attractive idea, but it really would be very poor writing by GRRM to introduce such a relationship without any prior warning or build up.

So for Jon the only ideas we have any hints for is Ashara/Ned (he is too young to be the son of Brandon), Lyanna/Rhaegar, Aerys or maybe Mance (Bael the bard story).

[Bael's Bastard]

On 3/3/2019 at 10:13 PM, corbon said:

Err, Eddard Stark doesn't claim Wylla is Jon's mum. He merely observes that the woman Robert Baratheon is thinking of, that Robert (inaccurately) thinks is Jon's mum, that woman's name is Wylla.

@corbon

I agree that Wylla isn't truly Jon's mother, but I don't think that is the only, or necessarily the likeliest, explanation of the exchange between Robert and Ned.

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …"

Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

"Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn."

"I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child."

"You are too hard on yourself, Ned. You always were. Damn it, no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed." He slapped a hand on his knee. "Well, I'll not press you if you feel so strong about it, though I swear, at times you're so prickly you ought to take the hedgehog as your sigil."

- AGOT: Eddard III

It's easy to get the impression from this that Ned once told Robert that he had slept with another woman one time after he had already wed Catelyn, that her name was Wylla, and that she was the mother of his bastard.

While I suppose it's possible Ned is just giving Robert the name of the person he is thinking of, it seems unlikely to me that Robert just assumes that this Wylla is Jon's mother without Ned having given him reason to believe that.

[corbon]

6 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

@corbon

I agree that Wylla isn't truly Jon's mother, but I don't think that is the only, or necessarily the likeliest, explanation of the exchange between Robert and Ned.

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …"

Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

"Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn."

"I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child."

"You are too hard on yourself, Ned. You always were. Damn it, no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed." He slapped a hand on his knee. "Well, I'll not press you if you feel so strong about it, though I swear, at times you're so prickly you ought to take the hedgehog as your sigil."

- AGOT: Eddard III

It's easy to get the impression from this that Ned once told Robert that he had slept with another woman one time after he had already wed Catelyn, that her name was Wylla, and that she was the mother of his bastard.

Indeed it is.
Doesn't make it true though.
Look at how Ned is when anyone discusses Jon's mother, be it Robert or Catelyn. It doesn't seem likely that Ned actually told Robert anything at all about Jon, at least by choice.

Robert, on the other hand, is more or less an expert at assumptions and projection. The idea that oh-so-upright Ned failed once, makes him happy (he grins). Its no great stretch to see Robert just assuming that Ned's 'hidden' (Robert's never seen her) wetnurse is the babe's mother, and its honourable Ned's way of looking after her (giving her long term employment and a place in his household) to compensate for knocking her up.  

Its also possible Robert had reports (Varys?) on Ned turning up at Starfall with a babe and wetnurse in tow, or similar. We don't know. I'm not intending to speculate this, just pointing out that there is no need for Ned to have broken character to tell Robert anything and every chance Robert made his own assumptions or had information from outside sources, or a combination of the two.

6 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

While I suppose it's possible Ned is just giving Robert the name of the person he is thinking of, it seems unlikely to me that Robert just assumes that this Wylla is Jon's mother without Ned having given him reason to believe that.

Why is it unlikely?
Which is more likely? Ned told Robert anything at all about Jon, or Robert jumped to a satisfying conclusion thats kind of what he would do if he were as honourable as Ned - and Ned didn't deny it outright when Robert asked him earlier.

For me the second is far, far, far more likely.

But either way, both are speculative. What we have in the text, is not Ned telling Robert that Wylla is Jon's mum, but Robert making an assumption and Ned allowing it, filling in the gaps without lying.
As long as people continue to assume Ned told Robert Wylla was Jon's mum, and we don't have evidence that he actually did, I'll keep pointing out what actually happened in that conversation.

[corbon]

15 hours ago, Morte said:

And I do think the Daynes do know, or at least guessed the babies mother and father then Ned arrived at Starfall, but went with Ned's version of the story. And the truth is not a thing you tell a little boy.

I don't think Ned ever gave anyone any story. He just allowed people to assume what made sense to them.

I think Ashara knew about R+L =J and ToJ, and maybe some other senior Daynes.

But most of Starfall knows no more than that Ashara'a babe, who's father was a Stark, was dead/adopted by her mother long before Ned turned up at Starfall with Wylla and Jon in tow.
I think its likely that the Daynes were providing secret support for the ToJ crew. I suspect they are where the recent information that the three KG clearly had came from.
I also think Ashara did have a child, conceived at Harrenhal with Brandon, and that child was claimed by her mother to avoid the stain of bastardy - Edric's aunt Allyria. Or it really did die.

I also think she faked her suicide shortly after Ned left and fled to Essos, with Aegon (false or real, but she thinks he's real), whom Varys sent to her by sea. I don't think her 'suicide' had anything to do with Ned.

These are by no means 'hard' beliefs. Just 'seems most likely of all options and ties a lot of things up neatly together. We'll see eventually. There are lots of ways (even all ways) in which I could be wrong here and I remain entirely flexible if any new data appears.

[Bael's Bastard]

37 minutes ago, corbon said:

Indeed it is.
Doesn't make it true though.
Look at how Ned is when anyone discusses Jon's mother, be it Robert or Catelyn. It doesn't seem likely that Ned actually told Robert anything at all about Jon, at least by choice.

Robert, on the other hand, is more or less an expert at assumptions and projection. The idea that oh-so-upright Ned failed once, makes him happy (he grins). Its no great stretch to see Robert just assuming that Ned's 'hidden' (Robert's never seen her) wetnurse is the babe's mother, and its honourable Ned's way of looking after her (giving her long term employment and a place in his household) to compensate for knocking her up.  

Its also possible Robert had reports (Varys?) on Ned turning up at Starfall with a babe and wetnurse in tow, or similar. We don't know. I'm not intending to speculate this, just pointing out that there is no need for Ned to have broken character to tell Robert anything and every chance Robert made his own assumptions or had information from outside sources, or a combination of the two.

Why is it unlikely?
Which is more likely? Ned told Robert anything at all about Jon, or Robert jumped to a satisfying conclusion thats kind of what he would do if he were as honourable as Ned - and Ned didn't deny it outright when Robert asked him earlier.

For me the second is far, far, far more likely.

But either way, both are speculative. What we have in the text, is not Ned telling Robert that Wylla is Jon's mum, but Robert making an assumption and Ned allowing it, filling in the gaps without lying.
As long as people continue to assume Ned told Robert Wylla was Jon's mum, and we don't have evidence that he actually did, I'll keep pointing out what actually happened in that conversation.

@corbon

Ned has committed to leading the world, Robert most of all, that Jon is his bastard. It is inconceivable to me that the reality we are introduced to in AGOT, in which Robert, Catelyn, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Tyrion, Cersei, Jeor, etc. all take for granted that Jon is Ned's bastard son, just coalesced from everyone making their own assumptions, without Ned ever making it a point to state and sell it. Catelyn explicitly tells us that he called Jon "son" for the north to see, so we don't have to wonder whether Ned openly acknowledged Jon as his bastard, or by implication, the affair that he must be a product of. 

I would absolutely agree that Ned hasn't gone around filling everyone in about all the details. I am sure he has made it a point to speak about the background of it all as little as possible. The less lies told, the easier to avoid getting caught in them. Catelyn pretty clearly has had no name put to Jon's mother. But with Robert, whether Ned volunteered the name or felt he had no choice but to insert one when pressed by Robert, it seems much more likely to me that Ned indeed led Robert to believe that he fathered Jon on a woman named Wylla, than that Robert is just basing this on his own assumptions. 

[Sea Dragon]

Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. The books are called Ice and Fire for many reasons. 

[Morte]

18 hours ago, corbon said:

I don't think Ned ever gave anyone any story. He just allowed people to assume what made sense to them.

I think Ashara knew about R+L =J and ToJ, and maybe some other senior Daynes.

But most of Starfall knows no more than that Ashara'a babe, who's father was a Stark, was dead/adopted by her mother long before Ned turned up at Starfall with Wylla and Jon in tow.
I think its likely that the Daynes were providing secret support for the ToJ crew. I suspect they are where the recent information that the three KG clearly had came from.

Agree.

18 hours ago, corbon said:

I also think Ashara did have a child, conceived at Harrenhal with Brandon, and that child was claimed by her mother to avoid the stain of bastardy - Edric's aunt Allyria. Or it really did die.

On the fence here, but also leaning more toward Brandon, which would make Ned even sadder about the whole thing, as in my version of the story he himself while in love with Ashara wouldn't have touched her, while his brother did - in Ned's view - dishonour Ashara, as Brandon wouldn't even be in love with her. If however Allyria is Ashara's baby, I also could imagine Ned being the father (this would explain the benevolent attitude the Dayne's have toward him even better). We'll see.

19 hours ago, corbon said:

These are by no means 'hard' beliefs. Just 'seems most likely of all options and ties a lot of things up neatly together. We'll see eventually. There are lots of ways (even all ways) in which I could be wrong here and I remain entirely flexible if any new data appears.

I'm 100% with you here, I too could be wrong completely.

[Hangover of the Morning]

No

[corbon]

23 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

@corbon

Ned has committed to leading the world, Robert most of all, that Jon is his bastard. It is inconceivable to me that the reality we are introduced to in AGOT, in which Robert, Catelyn, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Tyrion, Cersei, Jeor, etc. all take for granted that Jon is Ned's bastard son, just coalesced from everyone making their own assumptions, without Ned ever making it a point to state and sell it.

Why is it inconceivable?
You can see the easy and natural assumptions everywhere. Ned arrives at Starfall with a baby and a wetnurse. Starfall assumes the baby is Ned's by the wetnurse, since Ned's clearly treating it as his own (blood), there's no other mother option around and its a convenient arrangement for all concerned. Harrenhal and others guess Ashara, since she supposedly suicides when Ned left Starfall with the baby - plus perhaps old knowledge of her being disgraced from court before with a Stark (must have been Ned, obviously!) involved. The Sisters' rumour is clearly a localisation thing, nothing to do with Ned really.

And then all those assumptions, which include Ned being the father, are backed up by Ned acting as the father, even if he doesn't say so directly. Raising Jon in his household, part of his family.

While I can even see Robert making the assumption on his own, and jocularly pushing Ned with it (and getting a similar stone faced one-word responses response from Ned back then), I think its more likely that Robert was informed (by Varus most likely) about Ned's visit to Starfall including that he arrived with a baby and wetnurse, no mother in sight.

What really puzzles me though, if you assume that Ned actually told people a story, is why the story is different in different places, and why Ned doesn't continue to tell the story when he is pressed later. What we see is Ned clamming up whenever the subject is present, and people making their own assumptions. I don't understand what basis anyone can have for assuming it was different before, and Ned only clams up nowadays?

Quote

Catelyn explicitly tells us that he called Jon "son" for the north to see, so we don't have to wonder whether Ned openly acknowledged Jon as his bastard, or by implication, the affair that he must be a product of. 

Does she? Or is that another assumption? He didn't tell her when she confronted him that Jon was his "son" only his "blood". Note how even Catelyn puts quotation marks around "son" in that phrase. 
It seems to me that she's telling us the generic story, about Ned raising Jon, and having others treat Jon, as part of his immediate family, his blood, even if a bastard, and the widely held assumption that Jon was his bastard, rather than Ned's actual literal words.

Quote

I would absolutely agree that Ned hasn't gone around filling everyone in about all the details. I am sure he has made it a point to speak about the background of it all as little as possible. The less lies told, the easier to avoid getting caught in them. Catelyn pretty clearly has had no name put to Jon's mother. But with Robert, whether Ned volunteered the name or felt he had no choice but to insert one when pressed by Robert, it seems much more likely to me that Ned indeed led Robert to believe that he fathered Jon on a woman named Wylla, than that Robert is just basing this on his own assumptions. 

Why? Why has Ned changed his approach? Why, if he can tell a story to Robert, can he not tell the same story to anyone else? Why are the stories different, rather than based n Ned's own story?

 

5 hours ago, Morte said:

On the fence here, but also leaning more toward Brandon, which would make Ned even sadder about the whole thing, as in my version of the story he himself while in love with Ashara wouldn't have touched her, while his brother did - in Ned's view - dishonour Ashara, as Brandon wouldn't even be in love with her.

Nice touch.

Quote

If however Allyria is Ashara's baby, I also could imagine Ned being the father (this would explain the benevolent attitude the Dayne's have toward him even better). We'll see.

Indeed we will.
I'll just point out again, because everyone seems to ignore this, or forget...
Ned returned Dawn to the Daynes, when he had every right to keep it. He even went out of his way, hundreds of miles, at a time when he had far more important things to do - return home and take up Winterfell after more than a year's absence, gather his new bride and unseen son, report to his friend the King, etc etc, and he delayed all those things, apparently just to restore Dawn to the Daynes.
Consider how integral that sword is to that house. To their honour, their history, their sigil, their fame, their uniqueness, their pride. And he went out of his way to return all that to them when he had no need to do so and many reasons not to. Cna you imagine the broken-ness of House Dayne without Dawn? 

You think thats not worthy of more respect and honour returned than anything we can imagine?

I think their benevolent attitude is already very well explained, whatever his relationship or lack of such with Ashara.

[SFDanny]

21 minutes ago, corbon said:

While I can even see Robert making the assumption on his own, and jocularly pushing Ned with it (and getting a similar stone faced one-word responses response from Ned back then), I think its more likely that Robert was informed (by Varus most likely) about Ned's visit to Starfall including that he arrived with a baby and wetnurse, no mother in sight.

What really puzzles me though, if you assume that Ned actually told people a story, is why the story is different in different places, and why Ned doesn't continue to tell the story when he is pressed later. What we see is Ned clamming up whenever the subject is present, and people making their own assumptions. I don't understand what basis anyone can have for assuming it was different before, and Ned only clams up nowadays?

I remember you and I went around and around a few years ago on this question, my friend, and never came to an agreement. I think it is clear that Ned has told one person - Robert - a story of who is Jon's mother and names her "Wylla."

Quote

"Yours was ... Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like ... " (AGoT 122) bold emphasis added.

By which I think it is clear Ned has told Robert who Jon's mother is, but Robert has never met her. I agree that to everyone else Ned's response is silence, but Robert knows a story that Ned has told him, that just so happens to be the same name as a woman in Starfall who claims she is Jon's mother. To me it is clear this is Ned's cover story, but Ned is not dumb. He knows his silence causes rampant speculation. Which is just how he wants it. He wants people whispering that the Lady Ashara was really the secret mother of Ned's bastard son. It gives a reason Ned is silent to everyone else and promotes the guessing in the wrong direction. This is much more about Ned laying false trails for hunters of the truth than it does about Ned's unwillingness to lie if the absolutely doesn't have to do so.

It is smart on Ned's part because it looks to me that there have been hunters on the trail looking for the truth. Both Cersei's remarks to Ned in King's Landing's godswood, and Stannis's "fishwife" remark to Jon would indicate that to be the case.

 

[corbon]

33 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

I remember you and I went around and around a few years ago on this question, my friend, and never came to an agreement.

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I think it is clear that Ned has told one person - Robert - a story of who is Jon's mother and names her "Wylla."

What makes it clear though?
And if he's already told Robert a story once, why is he so reticent later?

Quote

By which I think it is clear Ned has told Robert who Jon's mother is, but Robert has never met her.

Clear that Robert has never met her, sure. But why clear that Ned told Robert 'Wylla is Jon's mum" as opposed to Robert guessing that the wetnurse is the mum and asking her name (or the name of the woman with his son, for example), and Ned not telling him she wasn't.

Why does Ned change tack, being willing to talk about it to Robert before, and not later? Why do you assume Robert learned the name from Ned telling him the whole story before, rather than Robert heard the story first from other sources and the name later from Ned?

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I agree that to everyone else Ned's response is silence, but Robert knows a story that Ned has told him, that just so happens to be the same name as a woman in Starfall who claims she is Jon's mother.

Actually, the woman doesn't claim to be Jon's mother (that we know of).
The young Daynes just 'know' it to be true. They didn't say she ever said so. they 'know' it the same way they 'know' that Ashara and Ned were in love while Ned bonked Wylla.

Quote

"He's with the Night's Watch on the Wall." Maybe I should go to the Wall instead of Riverrun. Jon wouldn't care who I killed or whether I brushed my hair . . . "Jon looks like me, even though he's bastard-born. He used to muss my hair and call me 'little sister.'" Arya missed Jon most of all. Just saying his name made her sad. "How do you know about Jon?"

"He is my milk brother."

"Brother?" Arya did not understand. "But you're from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?"

"Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me."

Arya was lost. "Who's Wylla?"

"Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born."

"Jon never knew his mother. Not even her name." Arya gave Ned a wary look. "You know her? Truly?" Is he making mock of me? "If you lie I'll punch your face."

"Wylla was my wetnurse," he repeated solemnly. "I swear it on the honor of my House."

"You have a House?" That was stupid; he was a squire, of course he had a House. "Who are you?"

"My lady?" Ned looked embarrassed. "I'm Edric Dayne, the . . . the Lord of Starfall."
...
"The bad kind," said Arya, suddenly contrite. She turned back to Ned. "I'm sorry I didn't know who you were. My lord."

"The fault is mine, my lady." He was very polite.

Jon has a mother. Wylla, her name is Wylla. She would need to remember so she could tell him, the next time she saw him. She wondered if he would still call her "little sister." I'm not so little anymore. He'd have to call me something else. Maybe once she got to Riverrun she could write Jon a letter and tell him what Ned Dayne had said. "There was an Arthur Dayne," she remembered. "The one they called the Sword of the Morning."

Its obviously more than coincidence that the story the Dayne's believe matches the story Robert believes.

But there's nothing that tells us that it originates from either Ned or Wylla, except that Ned has told Robert Wylla's name at some time.

Since neither Ned nor Wulla are shown to talk about it, I think it emerges from eth circumstances of Ned's visit to Starfall.
Starfall residents, and Robert due to reports, have more information - that Ned arrived in Starfall with baby and 'wetnurse' already.
Others have slightly less information - that Ned left Starfall with a bastard, and Ashara killed herself.

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To me it is clear this is Ned's cover story, but Ned is not dumb. He knows his silence causes rampant speculation. Which is just how he wants it. He wants people whispering that the Lady Ashara was really the secret mother of Ned's bastard son. It gives a reason Ned is silent to everyone else and promotes the guessing in the wrong direction. This is much more about Ned laying false trails for hunters of the truth than it does about Ned's unwillingness to lie if the absolutely doesn't have to do so.

Except that Ned explicitly and clearly quite thoroughly shuts down whispers about Ashara being Jon's mother. 
And don't tell me that Ned is subtle enough to promote a rumour by doing a poor job of shutting it down. Never mind that thats about as un-Ned as you could imagine, its also flat wrong. He did such a good job of shutting it down that Catelyn never heard the name Ashara at Winterfell again!

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It is smart on Ned's part because it looks to me that there have been hunters on the trail looking for the truth. Both Cersei's remarks to Ned in King's Landing's godswood, and Stannis's "fishwife" remark to Jon would indicate that to be the case.

While I don't think Ned is 'stupid' as many do, I also don't see him as that subtle.

And I cannot accept as reasonable an idea that promotes the exact opposite of what we get clearly from the text - that Ned wants rumours about Ashara to spread even though he gets icy-angry when he hears of them and does a superb job of shutting them down where he can.

There's no evidence that Ned or Wylla ever 'told' any story beyond Ned telling Ned Wylla's name at some time for some reason, and plenty of evidence that Ned in particular, did not, in his reactions and responses whenever anyone brings up either story.

I submit that everything we have is entirely consistent with no story at all from Ned. And I submit that Ned telling any story at all to anyone, even Robert creates inconsistencies with what we have. Where am I wrong here?

[Platypus Rex]

On ‎2‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 8:31 PM, divica said:

He was born in 287 so he is about 12/13 years…

I suspect this logic is backwards.  It should be - the books estimate him as 12 years old at a certain point, therefore he was probably born in 287.

[Luddagain]

I suspect that the name Wylla is a generic Stark name for the mother of bastard sons. Note that another bastard - Brandon Snow had a mother named Wylla.

I also note that the name Wylla evokes the idea of a Manderly.

Also I do wish people would not muddle the time lines.  Jon could NOT have been conceived at Harrenhall. He is a year too young.  Somewhere i have read that Ashara's child and that of Elia were of an age, he/she was about 12-18 months old when Jon was supposedly born. It is next to impossible to fudge birth dates of such young children.

So if you want to believe that Brandon had a child with Ashara then fine but it is NOT Jon.

My personal view is that it was Aerys who raped Ashara, that Faegon was in fact her son swapped by Elia to conceal the death of her still born child. Ashara "killed herself" not because of Ned but because of hearing how baby Aegon was murdered (possibly).

It is also possible that Jon is the son of Ned and Ashara, but it does not explain the secrecy.

Another possibility is that Edrik Dayne in the child of Ashara and Ned but this is unlikely as Ashara was supposedly dead by the time he was born. He is however approximately the right age to have been conceived at Starfall BEFORE Ned left. He seems to be a few months older than Sansa, whom we can assume was conceived shortly after Ned's return to Riverrun). -m We meet Ned Dayne in book 2 and he is only 12. This is roughly 12 months from the start and therefore we have Sansa about 12. However she is obviously a young 12 because by the end of DoD she is still 13. If indeed this is the case then we can Assume Ned is unaware of this relationship.

[Maelerys]

Yes. 

[TheThreeEyedCow]

No.