Jump to content
Platypus Rex

Poll: Is Jon Snow the son of a Dayne?

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

There are zero hints of Ned being in love with Ashara?  How can one even have a conversation?  Maybe these clues are in fact red herrings, but they are there.  Maybe "hyperbole" is the wrong word, but it seems to me you will say anything.

Hints of Ned being in love with her? Count me as a firm “none”. Which doesn’t at all mean I’m not wrong, but still, as I see it presently, none. 

@Platypus Rex, I typed “no hints whatsoever” here,  but that is incorrect and not what I meant to type. I was still thinking about another exhange on the subject. What I do believe is that there is no proof that Ned was in love w/ Ashara. 

Edited by kissdbyfire

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Hints of Ned being in love with her? Count me as a firm “none”. Which doesn’t at all mean I’m not wrong, but still, as I see it presently, none. 

"My Aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhall."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Hints of Ned being in love with her? Count me as a firm “none”. Which doesn’t at all mean I’m not wrong, but still, as I see it presently, none. 

I think it is pretty clear that somebody in the Dayne household thinks that Ned and Ashara were in love.  Someone had to tell Allyria the story, and I doubt that it was made up from whole cloth.  Also, from what I recall, Harwin's response is, shall we say, somewhat ambiguous (certainly not a denial).  Whether it is actually true is another matter, though I wouldn't be surprised if there was actually something between them.  In any event, even if a child did result, it is not Jon.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

3 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

In book 1 Cat brought Ashara up, and Ned flew off the handle: "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood . . . Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely "


Hello, BOB. I am not going to rehash answering all of the other issues you posted that others are already answering, but I want to touch on this line. I have seen a few people over my time here on this forum attempt to use this line as some sort of "proof" that Jon is linked to Ashara most sneakily. That Catelyn was not asking about Jon, but Ashara. If we readers take a step back and look at the larger scene, Catelyn is talking/asking about Jon in that conversation and whole thought process. Jon did not spontaneously erupt from Ned's head just because the name Ashara was mentioned (or however it is argued?). Cat was trying to separate the what from the how in her line of thoughts and questions.

And even though Eddard is not Jon's father, Jon is still his "kin" by blood and through being of the "same village". Double combo scoop with a flower on top. Plus, there is a wordplay going on here with Ned and his "trueborn" sons. Jon is not Ned's trueborn son, but his adoptive son.

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned's sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse. "Jon must go," she said now.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I think it is pretty clear that somebody in the Dayne household thinks that Ned and Ashara were in love.  Someone had to tell Allyria the story, and I doubt that it was made up from whole cloth. 

Not necessarily. No one had to tell Allyria anything directly. No doubt she 'knows', just as Edric does, that Jon's mum was Wylla. Who is a servant still at Starfall, much the same as Old Nan is (though not nearly as old!) in Winterfell.

Her Aunt though, thats a mysterious story. Or non-story. Supposedly she committed suicide. Why? People will gossip. And no doubt the servants gossip is similar to that of Winterfell, though slightly more informed by the knowledge that Ashara was definitely not connected to Jon. But they too see Ned turning up at Starfall (now married to someone else). Then Ashara supposedly killing herself. And recall that Ashara was at court but was disgraced, probably pregnant. And a Stark was involved somehow. So the rumours form naturally, and Allyria listens. And its a story designed to appeal to a young girl with a romantic bent. After all, who better to have as a lost aunt. A miserable suicide who shamed her house and herself with her conduct at court and effectively died of depression? Or a tragic lover doomed by war and events to lose her love?

The main problem is though, that apart from Ned never once thinking of or remembering Ashara in any way, the whole story is utterly opposite to everything we know of Ned.
I mean, I could accept, as Robert comments, Ashara being that pretty amazing wench who made Ned Stark forget his honour for a moment (believe it... or not!) But not that Ned was busy bonking Wylla while in love with Ashara. Thats just too much away from his character. And essentially, thats the young Dayne's story.

19 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Also, from what I recall, Harwin's response is, shall we say, somewhat ambiguous (certainly not a denial).  

You recall incorrectly. Harwin says he doesn't believe it, though he heard similar rumours long ago in Winterfell. His point to Arya is 'so what?' That even if it was true, its no stain on Ned's or Ashara's honour (though a pregnancy would be) as neither of them were promised elsewhere at the time.
And that too is relevant. If Ned and Ashara were lovers at Harrenhal, then there is no great stain. Neither Ned nor Ashara were promised to others. There's no reason to hide this, no reason to hide Jon's parentage, no reason to cause the suffering that Ned does in hiding Jon's origins.

19 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Whether it is actually true is another matter, though I wouldn't be surprised if there was actually something between them.  In any event, even if a child did result, it is not Jon.  

Indeed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Your writing style seems to be using extreme hyperbole in order to shut people down who disagree with you--you are doing it here again. 

You're doing exactly that right back. She was neither extreme nor hyperbolic in her first answer, nor tried to shut you down. But you've tried to do that by falsely shaming her.

KbF might have been somewhat abrupt, but consider it from her perspective. You came in rather clumsily, misdirecting the first part of your response to her and presenting rather poor arguments already debunked. No shame in having an opinion and supporting it as best you can, but you yourself admitted you hadn't followed the thread properly. She didn't take (have?) the time to go through your points in detail, but she also indicated you were free to have your opinion. She did point out where you strayed into fallacious statements, and you should be able to accept that there were flaws in your analysis and/or statements without claiming that someone was 'shutting you down' when they point out such flaws.

1 hour ago, By Odin's Beard said:

I do not have a dog in this fight, this morning was the first time I have even given serious consideration to this topic, and with fresh eyes, this was my interpretation of events in the books.  Just pointing out passages that I didn't see people focusing on, and as naive as I am, I thought you would find my quote pulls helpful.

The main problem i think is that I'd just addressed pretty much everything you quoted quite thoroughly, here.

1 hour ago, By Odin's Beard said:

I posed what I thought was a non-controvertial interpretation of events--that Ned danced with Ashara, but was afraid to make the first move because he thought she was hot and he was too shy to ask, and you replied with "There is no evidence of that whatsoever"--Which took me aback, because there is some amount of evidence, even if it was somewhat ambiguous, and made me think you were just trying to flame me.

Non-controversial does not mean true. And the way you posted much of it wasn't as opinion, or interpretation, it was as bald statement of fact. Well, at least as much as anything she said was.

Also, be very clear about the difference between evidence and proof. You stated your interpretation as though it was fact, she said there was no proof, not no evidence. 

1 hour ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Then later you essentially said I am full of shit, and am cherry-picking quotes to fit my agenda.   

You started with the 'dishonest' and 'haughty' shit. 

Seems very much a case of noob walks half-armed into the middle of a discussion, gets a time-short response, misinterprets several things both within the subject matter and the discussion, and feeling slighted starts slinging insults. 
Looks like this every time I go back and check any part of the conversation (unless someone is editing posts, and the first few in this exchange don't have edits marked as yet).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/3/2019 at 11:19 PM, White Ravens said:

Is that a famous quote by GRRM?  Or is that a famous quote of something a character of his said in one of his books?

One of Tyrion's pithy aphorisms by way of Jaime.

Quote

"Oh, it's truth you want? Be careful, my lady. Tyrion says that people often claim to hunger for truth, but seldom like the taste when it's served up."

-Catelyn VII, ACOK

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to throw in something: Even IF A+N=J is not the red herring for R+L=J (which I would like, but unfortunately find it very unlikely, a dim 2-5% chance, me thinks), Jon wouldn't have been conceived at Harrenhall, but most likely much later. Remember GRRM saying that Ashara wasn't nailed to the floor in Starfall? Ned and Ashara could have meet one last time before his wedding with Cat, or even after. There is no need to construct an age difference of some years for Rob and Jon.

By the by I do believe that Ned and Ashara fell in love at Harrenhall. As Arya is told, there wasn't any shame in this, they both were free and as a second son, Ned's chances to get a "Wonderful! Go for it!" if he asked his father whether he may court for the hand of the Lady Ashara would have been quite high. But then he had to marry Cat in his brothers steed, so even without Jon being his son from Ashara he would still hurt then reminded of her, even though he does love his Cat in his own special way at the beginning of AGoT. It may just be that he still also does love the Lady Ashara, just not in the same way as he loves his Cat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Morte said:

Just to throw in something: Even IF A+N=J is not the red herring for R+L=J (which I would like, but unfortunately find it very unlikely, a dim 2-5% chance, me thinks), Jon wouldn't have been conceived at Harrenhall, but most likely much later. Remember GRRM saying that Ashara wasn't nailed to the floor in Starfall? Ned and Ashara could have meet one last time before his wedding with Cat, or even after. There is no need to construct an age difference of some years for Rob and Jon.

The age difference argument is usually for those who think B+A=J, or insist Jon was conceived at Harrenhal.
Its certainly possible though, as you say, Ned met Ashara later. Extremely unlikely when all things are considered, but technically possible.

6 hours ago, Morte said:

By the by I do believe that Ned and Ashara fell in love at Harrenhall. As Arya is told, there wasn't any shame in this, they both were free and as a second son, Ned's chances to get a "Wonderful! Go for it!" if he asked his father whether he may court for the hand of the Lady Ashara would have been quite high. But then he had to marry Cat in his brothers steed, so even without Jon being his son from Ashara he would still hurt then reminded of her, even though he does love his Cat in his own special way at the beginning of AGoT.

You are free to believe this. There's just almost no support for it once you examine the evidence in the text closely.

6 hours ago, Morte said:

It may just be that he still also does love the Lady Ashara, just not in the same way as he loves his Cat.

Its rather damning that he never ever thinks of Ashara. Not as his lost love, not wistfully, not as a regret, not as Jon's mother, not for the harm he did her (in this circumstance), not for the destruction of her life.
Remember, she was disgraced from court. She apparently looked to a Stark. She apparently had an illegitimate pregnancy which may or may not have resulted in a living child. And she apparently committed suicide after that last meeting with Ned. If Ned was in love with her thats some pretty serious shit that he never ever thinks anything of, not even backhandedly.

Does that sound like Ned to you?.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, corbon said:

Its rather damning that he never ever thinks of Ashara. Not as his lost love, not wistfully, not as a regret, not as Jon's mother, not for the harm he did her (in this circumstance), not for the destruction of her life.

I agree with you here.  But the same thing goes for Rhaegar:

Ned: "For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not."

Rhaegar's love affair with your sister destroyed your family and tore apart the kingdom--leading to the deaths of your brother, father, and sister, and you are raising the guy's son, but haven't thought about him for years?  That too would be weird.  Both scenarios are odd.  Also, he has what I think is a weirdly dispassionate or positive attitude towards Rhaegar.

 

Edited by By Odin's Beard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, corbon said:

Its rather damning that he never ever thinks of Ashara. Not as his lost love, not wistfully, not as a regret, not as Jon's mother, not for the harm he did her (in this circumstance), not for the destruction of her life.
Remember, she was disgraced from court. She apparently looked to a Stark. She apparently had an illegitimate pregnancy which may or may not have resulted in a living child. And she apparently committed suicide after that last meeting with Ned. If Ned was in love with her thats some pretty serious shit that he never ever thinks anything of, not even backhandedly.

There sure are at least some little hints toward Ned having a crush on Ashara (him wanting to dance with her, the rumours, her family talking about it), but of course no evidence, because we have no clear expression of his feeling, as you say.

But the "we never hear him thinking about her"-argument is not valid, as we also never hear him thinking about Jon being his sisters son and many other things - we just have his reaction when she is mentioned, nothing more. As we also have only very blurry emotional reactions then Ned is thinking about Jon, one of this paired with shame (the shame doesn't fit here, if we think R+L=J is true, but it would fit, if Ned would not only think about his nephew here, but also about something from his own life). But this is of course because we as the readers don't get to hear all thoughts of a POV-character, especially not the one which would spoil the story for us. So yes, we have no proof, but small hints.

Note that I'm not even saying Ned and Ashara had to have sex, but I think they were in love.

Now does this sound like Ned to me? Yes, because humans aren't robots, and Ned is not the "Duty-1000" who never made even one mistake in his life, with nothing to regret, but a man with feelings he sacrificed for his House, now living with the consequences. He is almost as reluctant about his past and his feelings toward the reader as he is toward his surroundings. He is a quite water, and quite waters are deep.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, By Odin's Beard said:

I agree with you here.  But the same thing goes for Rhaegar:

Ned: "For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not."

Ned's actually mistaken here. He literally thinks of Rhaegar in the previous chapter, not to mention thinking of his death scene and discussing him with Robert several times earlier.

1 hour ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Rhaegar's love affair with your sister destroyed your family and tore apart the kingdom--leading to the deaths of your brother, father, and sister, and you are raising the guy's son, but haven't thought about him for years?  That too would be weird.  Both scenarios are odd. 

Well, its not really that odd when you look deeper.

Its clear Ned didn't really know Rhaegar as a person much. They had few chances to interact, and Ned was a rather minor and obscure figure when those chances did arise.
So for the most part Rhaegar is a somewhat abstract figure as far as Ned is concerned.

Its also clear that Ned believes Lyanna is somewhat complicit in her own fate. 

Quote

"It has a name, does it?" Her father sighed. "Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her."

So Ned, who certainly knows more than us, though not everything necessarily, believes Lyanna was at least partly responsible for her own fate. Which is somewhat at odds with the 'Rhaegar abducted her and tore apart our family and the kingdom narrative that we are initially given.

1 hour ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Also, he has what I think is a weirdly dispassionate or positive attitude towards Rhaegar.

Indeed. He makes a favourable moral comparison to Rhaegar compared to  his friend, and King, Robert!

But then, look closely at the hints we have from that pre-rebellion period.
Although Rhaegar and Lyanna doing whatever they did was clearly the trigger to set off Brandon (who didn't need much to be set off by all accounts, including needing to be restrained just because Rhaegar awarded his sister the QoLaB laurel at Harrenhal), its rather odd that there is not a single mention of Lyanna after that. Not by Brandon, nor Rickard, nor Jon Arryn, nor Ned, nor even Robert, that we have heard of.
No doubt one or more of those people did in fact mention Lyanna, but if they did, it doesn't seem to have been important enough or relevant enough for anyone to include in their accounts.

I think that the record shows that the real spark that ignited the war was Brandon's foolish and irrational behaviour setting off Aerys' paranoia. Things snowballed from there in ways they didn't need to from Rhaegar+Lyanna.
(I suspect that that is a large part of the reason why Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared in fact. If no one knows where you are, its very much harder for anyone to do stupid shit that makes things worse, and both 'sides' (Rickard and Aerys) would likely have been in agreement about stopping it. Unfortunately Brandon did some really really stupid shit that had no chance of a positive outcome, so couldn't be predicted, and that set Aerys off. But I might be wrong, we'll see when we get more info).

Sure, Robert later claims that it was all about Lyanna, but that doesn't match what we have from other sources, or his behaviours earlier. I think Robert lives in something of a fantasy which provides him with a moral out for his terrible failings as a king, husband and father. Basically he's a childish, selfish asshole, with no responsibility. But he gets to blame it all on losing Lyanna and so its not really his fault (and he can continue being a childish selfish asshole instead of growing up). If only he'd had Lyanna everything would be perfect, in his mind. 
But what we see from Robert earlier, is him choosing to drink himself under the table with his buddies rather than taking a rare opportunity to spend time with his betrothed at Harrenhal. And while 'desperately trying to recover Lyanna from being raped 1000 times by Rhaegar', he's literally fucking every single whore in the Peach at Stoney Sept.
And Ned tells Robert that he never really knew Lyanna. Its clear from several things that Robert has a fantasy Lyanna in his head, not the real person.
I think that while Robert was angry at 'his' possession (betrothed) being 'stolen' by Rhaegar, the whole Lyanna goddess-figure that Robert has in his head is a post-Kingship construct by Robert. He went to war because it was that or give up his head.

Note also that even Robert, deep down underneath it all, believes that Rhaegar and Lyanna were together by choice.

Quote

 Confused, the king shook his head. "Rhaegar  Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her." The king drained his cup.

Robert couldn't think Rhaegar and Lyanna were together in death ("he has her now") if he truly believed it was unwilling on Lyanna's part in life. He just can't admit that to himself, because that would mean she'd rejected him and break his 'not-my-fault' fantasy.

I think if you put together Ned's odd attitude to both Lyanna and Rhaegar, the reports we have from relatively independent sources about Rhaegar (extremely intelligent, highly capable at everything he did, extraordinarily popular with the smallfolk, a superb warrior, but above all conscientious and dutiful), the limited data we have about events from those times, and even the little subconscious clues we get from Robert...
... we get a strong hint that things were very different than they have been presented to us, and Ned knows it.

So then, Ned knows, or believes, that Rhaegar wasn't responsible for the death and destruction that followed. And he didn't know the man personally well. So its not like Rhaegar is this big overarching figure in Ned's mind that he should be thinking about, either personally or 'professionally'. More like a shadowy background guy that in the end, played very little part in the things that happened to Ned, and a secondary part to the things that happened to Lyanna.
Plus, its a dangerous subject. Ned's good at walling off Jon's origins because its an area that could destroy everything he loves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Morte said:

There sure are at least some little hints toward Ned having a crush on Ashara (him wanting to dance with her, the rumours, her family talking about it), but of course no evidence, because we have no clear expression of his feeling, as you say.

Don’t you think there are different ways of interpreting the text as it pertains to the examples you give here? 

For me, from the first time, I took it to suggest that Brandon had a fling w/ Ashara, and the little we have on the matter fits just as well, if not better - IMO.

And just to be  nitpicky, we don’t know that he wanted to dance w/ Ashara. The text is dubious, and could mean that, or it could mean that Ned was being his usual solemn wallflower, and outgoing Brandon decided he had to have a Dance w/ the most beautiful woman present. 

The rumours are very easily explained because of the chain of events (simplified): Harrenhal Tourney, N&A dance, war, Ned kills AD and goes to Starfall, comes back w/ a bastard son, Ashara kills herself. 

And I don’t really think much of Ned Dayne having heard stories... I mean, AD was the last SotM, and that’s a big deal for the Daynes. He’s also considered by all to have been the greatest knight of his generation, yadda yadda yadda. So it makes perfect sense to me that the events surrounding his death followed closely by his sister’s death would have been talked about a lot. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Morte said:

There sure are at least some little hints toward Ned having a crush on Ashara (him wanting to dance with her,

Just a reminder, we don;t know Ned wanted to dance with her. That passage can read two ways.

18 minutes ago, Morte said:

the rumours,

We can see how the rumours would come about even if there was nothing between Ned and Ashara.

18 minutes ago, Morte said:

her family talking about it),

Her family are children who don't comprehend the meaning of what they say.
Ned was fucking Wylla while in love with Ashara, who killed herself? And they still think Ned's an awesome dude?
Nope, cannot see it.

18 minutes ago, Morte said:

but of course no evidence, because we have no clear expression of his feeling, as you say.

But the "we never hear him thinking about her"-argument is not valid, as we also never hear him thinking about Jon being his sisters son and many other things

But we get other clues there though. We don;t get any clues from Ned about Ashara.
Not even the response to Cat. Although Cat misinterprets his response, its clear when you check his words, and also compare the other times he gets icy (when Robert is pushing him about Wylla), that his response is about Jon, not Ashara.

18 minutes ago, Morte said:

- we just have his reaction when she is mentioned, nothing more. As we also have only very blurry emotional reactions then Ned is thinking about Jon, one of this paired with shame (the shame doesn't fit here, if we think R+L=J is true, but it would fit, if Ned would not only think about his nephew here, but also about something from his own life).

Yes, the shame fits with R+L=J, for multiple reasons.
1. The shame and hurt he's caused Catelyn, from his necessary lies.
2. The shame and hurt he's caused Jon, as a bastard and for not telling him his heritage. We know Jon agonises over that, and I'm sure Ned knows it too.

18 minutes ago, Morte said:

But this is of course because we as the readers don't get to hear all thoughts of a POV-character, especially not the one which would spoil the story for us. So yes, we have no proof, but small hints.

Note that I'm not even saying Ned and Ashara had to have sex, but I think they were in love.

And its possible. We just agree to disagree that the text gives us this.

18 minutes ago, Morte said:

Now does this sound like Ned to me? Yes, because humans aren't robots, and Ned is not the "Duty-1000" who never made even one mistake in his life, with nothing to regret, but a man with feelings he sacrificed for his House, now living with the consequences. He is almost as reluctant about his past and his feelings toward the reader as he is toward his surroundings. He is a quite water, and quite waters are deep.

Now if the Daynes thought Ashara was Jon's mother, then I could agree with you. She could be his human mistake. But they don't. They know that Ashara is not Jon's mother. They, who don't know Ned, think that Ned was in love with Ashara but bonking Wylla. I can see a man like Ned failing his own standards for love. I could see Ned failing duty for a tumble, once (as Robert suggests). I can't see Ned failing love for a tumble. 

Ned is clearly not a robot, and admits to many mistakes and many regrets. I just can't see either this type of mistake, or no regret or admittance of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Don’t you think there are different ways of interpreting the text as it pertains to the examples you give here? 

For me, from the first time, I took it to suggest that Brandon had a fling w/ Ashara, and the little we have on the matter fits just as well, if not better - IMO.

I has happily in the N+A (though not for Jon) might have fallen in love at Harrenhal even if they did nothing about it camp, until ADwD. The new data in that, mostly from Barristan about Ashara, and also the way in retrospect Barristan seemed to still have respect for Ned, convinced me that neither Ashara chose Ned, nor Ned was her lover and failed her.

More new data might change that again, though I'd be surprised, given what we have now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, corbon said:

Plus, its a dangerous subject. Ned's good at walling off Jon's origins because its an area that could destroy everything he loves. 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Its rather damning that he never ever thinks of Ashara.

So which is it? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, corbon said:

Ned's actually mistaken here. He literally thinks of Rhaegar in the previous chapter, not to mention thinking of his death scene and discussing him with Robert several times earlier.

I don't think he's mistaken. Rhaegar comes up a lot, that's true, but Ned isn't the one who brings him up. Robert is the one who does. He brings him up in the crypts, he brings him up while they are in the barrows of the First Men and so on. Ned is consistently prompted into thinking about Rhaegar but it's usually about the slaughter of his children or how much Robert still hates him. 

When Ned is returning from the brothel, it is the first time that he thinks of Rhaegar on his own. And he doesn't do it in connection to the murders of the children or how much Robert loathes him. Instead he is wondering if he frequented brothels and believes he didn't. 

And there's the whole trail of thought about what Lyanna made him promise, if Rhaegar frequented brothels and Jon snow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

So which is it? 

My 2p worth is that Jon’s actual parentage (R+L) is very dangerous, whereas if Jon’s mum was Ashara, it wouldn’t have been, therefore he would have thought of her. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Morte said:

There sure are at least some little hints toward Ned having a crush on Ashara (him wanting to dance with her, the rumours, her family talking about it), but of course no evidence, because we have no clear expression of his feeling, as you say.

But the "we never hear him thinking about her"-argument is not valid, as we also never hear him thinking about Jon being his sisters son and many other things - we just have his reaction when she is mentioned, nothing more. As we also have only very blurry emotional reactions then Ned is thinking about Jon, one of this paired with shame (the shame doesn't fit here, if we think R+L=J is true, but it would fit, if Ned would not only think about his nephew here, but also about something from his own life). But this is of course because we as the readers don't get to hear all thoughts of a POV-character, especially not the one which would spoil the story for us. So yes, we have no proof, but small hints.

Note that I'm not even saying Ned and Ashara had to have sex, but I think they were in love.

Now does this sound like Ned to me? Yes, because humans aren't robots, and Ned is not the "Duty-1000" who never made even one mistake in his life, with nothing to regret, but a man with feelings he sacrificed for his House, now living with the consequences. He is almost as reluctant about his past and his feelings toward the reader as he is toward his surroundings. He is a quite water, and quite waters are deep.

Yeah, Eddard being enamored by Ashara is not to far fetched. The idea doesn't threaten the RLJ theory.

I don't like the way martin wrote the Eddard baby momma drama. I accept RLJ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

So which is it? 

R+L=J is dangerous. If Robert learns of dragonspawn (or anyone else who might tell Robert) there's no telling he won't wipe out Ned and his entire family in rage.

N+A=J is not dangerous for anyone.

18 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I don't think he's mistaken.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard IX

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.
Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard VIII

Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. 

This is Ned speaking to Vayon Poole. Robert is not around, though in Ned's mind.

18 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And there's the whole trail of thought about what Lyanna made him promise, if Rhaegar frequented brothels and Jon snow.

Agreed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×