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Platypus Rex

Poll: Is Jon Snow the son of a Dayne?

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4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Has he been seen leading BwB men, or is he just a squire, a boy? 

He was born in 287 so he is about 12/13 years…

Even if he is a squire or boy he has probably more education on battle stratagies than his companions (I don t remembre which BwB members might be with him) so it wouldn t be strange if he was their leader.

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Edric could just have decided that as Beric's squire, he was going to return his body to Blackhaven and then go home to let his aunt know that the man she was going to marry died. He could be or was traveling back with Anguy who is from the Dornish Marches. 

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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Just now, Platypus Rex said:

A curiosity question, particularly for all the "No" voters.  Who will be "Sword of the Morning"?  Jon Snow anyhow?  Nobody?  Someone else?  Does one actually have to be a Dayne to be the Sword of the Morning?

If Jon is a bastard of a Dayne, it won't give him any right to Dawn under the current rules anyway, as he doesn't have the family name. As a result, there is no need for all the theory-crafting contortions necessary to provide him with a Dayne parent. Since the Daynes don't practice incest, "purity of blood" considerations don't come into it either, so again a Dayne parent would be completely superfluous for the purpose of getting the sword.

So, no.

Having said that, I do believe that Jon will wield Dawn. But the rules restricting the sword to the members of House Dayne are going to become obselete with the coming of the Long Night. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if search for the wielder capable of unlocking the blade's full potential in such a case is a part of the secret lore of the Daynes.

As an aside, I'll never understand why so many people want Ned to be the jerk who had knocked up and abandoned Ashara. After WoIaF we know that there was at least half a year between the tourney of Harrenhal and Brandon's arrest - more than enough time for Ned, who was free of any obligations, to propose to Ashara, if he so chose. No tragic romance there, just a tawdry one-night stand or worse, a young noblewoman "ruined" by a dude who just wanted some fun, but wasn't interested in taking any responsibility for the consequences.

Edited by Maia

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Sure, the rules state that only a member of House Dayne can wield Dawn, but so what? If someone without Dayne blood tries to wield it will their body disintegrate or something. I highly doubt it. So surely, if the sword is going to be used at all, we could see it getting wielded by anyone. 

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22 minutes ago, Maia said:

If Jon is a bastard of a Dayne, it won't give him any right to Dawn under the current rules anyway, as he doesn't have the family name. As a result, there is no need for all the theory-crafting contortions necessary to provide him with a Dayne parent. Since the Daynes don't practice incest, "purity of blood" considerations don't come into it either, so again a Dayne parent would be completely superfluous for the purpose of getting the sword.

Exactly. If Jon is indeed the son of Rhaegar, then he will already have Dayne ancestry through the legitimate marriage of his ancestors Maekar Targaryen and Dyanna Dayne. It will not make him any more a Dayne in name than being a bastard of Arthur would, but it demonstrates how unnecessary it is to invent some Dayne connection for Jon by working backwards from wanting to see him wield Dayne. And as you said, if he is to wield Dawn at any point, it very well may be at a point when there is too much desperation to survive to worry about the silly rules of nobles.

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Be a hell of a curve ball if he is, so it's a No for me.

Still think the Daynes may prove to be important though. Something as nuts as Longclaw is actually Dawn or Ashara is Meera's mother.

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16 hours ago, divica said:

But the point is that the only dayne that is in dorne and might want the sword at the moment is darkstar.

So he could be the one, who will find out, that the sword is actually not at Starfall, and that its last known whereabouts is at the Tower of Joy, and that Ned Stark didn't brought it back to Daynes, he took it with him, and the baby, and Wylla to Winterfell. And now Wylla is at Starfall, so she will be the source of this information. She will reveal the truth to Darkstar, probably, under torture. So Darkstar will know who Jon really is, and that the sword was taken by Ned (or by Ashara, who isn't dead).

1 hour ago, The Bastard of Walton said:

Still think the Daynes may prove to be important though. Something as nuts as Longclaw is actually Dawn or Ashara is Meera's mother.

It's not entirely impossible, that Jyana Reed, Meera's and Jojen's mother, could be Ashara Dayne. Maybe, she staged her death, and took a new name, similar to her friend's Lyanna's. Could be, that Ashara and Howland fell in love at Harrenhal, and she later left her family, to be with him. I think, that when Lyanna was at the Tower of Joy, giving birth to Jon, Ashara, newborn Meera, and her wetnurse Wylla, were also there. So after the fight, Ned didn't went to Starfall to give Arthur's sword to his sister, no need to go anywhere, because she was already there with him. If she has that sword now, or she knows where it is, then for Jon she will play a similar role, as the Lady of the Lake in Arthurian legends - according to some versions of it, she was the one, who gave Excalibur to King Arthur. So Arthur Dayne's name could be a clue from GRRM, about Dawn and Jon's real identity - magic sword for the future King.

Edited by Megorova

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17 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

A curiosity question, particularly for all the "No" voters.  Who will be "Sword of the Morning"?  Jon Snow anyhow?  Nobody?  Someone else?  Does one actually have to be a Dayne to be the Sword of the Morning?

I don't think were will be a "Sword of the Morning" in the books, or at least not till the very end, as I think the sword would have to go to a Dayne of Starfall, and the candidate for this is too young to have earned it yet: Edric.

But I do believe it possible for "Dorkstor" to get his hands on the sword - just don't think the family would recognize him as the "Sword of the Morning" if he somehow steals the sword.

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I believe that Jon is the son of Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne. Jon is half Stark, half Dayne and will at some point wield Dawn. 

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If Jon is a half-Dayne, why didn't Ned send him to his other family. Wouldn't that have been the perfect moment to tell him who his mother was? Edric knew of Jon, he was curious about him. He told Arya they shared the same wet nurse, making them milk brothers. 

Instead of doing that, Ned who is anguished at the idea of Jon having to leave Winterfell, brings up the argument that Jon is too young to join the Night's Watch, allows him to go anyway to join an order he knows has fallen on hard times.

If Jon is half-Dayne, then it makes Ned an especially cruel father, which we know he isn't, to do this to his son when he knows there was a much better alternative than him going to the Wall.

If Jon is given the choice between going to Starfall and meet his mother's family or go to the Wall, does he choose his kin or does he choose to go to the Wall instead? 

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose
to leave, not to leaving

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28 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

If Jon is half-Dayne, then it makes Ned an especially cruel father, which we know he isn't, to do this to his son when he knows there was a much better alternative than him going to the Wall.

If Jon is given the choice between going to Starfall and meet his mother's family or go to the Wall, does he choose his kin or does he choose to go to the Wall instead? 

Absolutely. And, frankly, that would have made Ned quite shitty towards Ashara too. Now that we know that he had more than enough time to marry her before Brandon indulged in his feat of idiocy, the initial impression of tragic, star-crossed lovers separated by cruel fate has become completely untenable.

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1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

If Jon is half-Dayne, then it makes Ned an especially cruel father, which we know he isn't, to do this to his son when he knows there was a much better alternative than him going to the Wall.

If Jon is given the choice between going to Starfall and meet his mother's family or go to the Wall, does he choose his kin or does he choose to go to the Wall instead? 

 

28 minutes ago, Maia said:

Absolutely. And, frankly, that would have made Ned quite shitty towards Ashara too. Now that we know that he had more than enough time to marry her before Brandon indulged in his feat of idiocy, the initial impression of tragic, star-crossed lovers separated by cruel fate has become completely untenable.

Unless Jon is Lyanna's son by Arthur.

In that case, Ned's got good reason to think Jon's in danger.

Ned's got good reason to believe Jon's in danger of Robert's mad obsession if he's Lyanna's son by anyone but Robert: Arthur, Fred the Dog Boy, Stable Boy #4.

Robert doesn't hate Rhaegar because he's a Targ. He doesn't still kill him in his dreams every night because he's a Targ. Robert does this because he hates the man who took Lyanna from him.

Ned's got good reason to believe that mad anger and grief would apply to any man who "took" Lyanna. And any man's child by Lyanna. 

Edited by Sly Wren
Mixed up the people

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1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Unless Jon is Lyanna's son by Arthur.

In that case, Ned's got good reason to think Jon's in danger.

Ned's got good reason to believe Jon's in danger of Robert's mad obsession if he's Lyanna's son by anyone but Robert: Arthur, Fred the Dog Boy, Stable Boy #4.

Robert doesn't hate Rhaegar because he's a Targ. He doesn't still kill him in his dreams every night because he's a Targ. Robert does this because he hates the man who took Lyanna from him.

Ned's got good reason to believe that mad anger and grief would apply to any man who "took" Lyanna. And any man's child by Lyanna. 

That argument doesn't hold up.

Ned would have no reason to believe that Jon's life would be in danger if he had merely been the child of Arthur and Lyanna.

Robert neither murdered nor commanded the murder of Rhaegar's children, but excused Tywin's murder of Rhaegar's children after he had already murdered them and presented their bodies to him. And even after Robert had come to hate Targaryens, Jon had been able to persuade him for fourteen years not to pursue the murder of Viserys and Daenerys.

Tywin didn't murder Rhaegar's children because Robert hated Rhaegar, but because they were heirs to the Targaryen throne that Robert had just plopped his ass atop, and which Tywin obviously had intentions to see a grandson sit.

Neither Robert nor Tywin was going to go out of their way to kill, or to have killed, a child of the Kingsguard knight Arthur Dayne, a guy who had no claim to his own family's seat let alone to the Iron Throne, and Lyanna Stark.

Robert might have shifted his hatred from Rhaegar to Arthur, but no matter how much Robert would have hated the dead Dayne, neither Robert nor Tywin would have had the incentive to kill a child of Arthur and Lyanna that they had to see Rhaegar's legitimate children killed.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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26 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

That argument doesn't hold up.

Of course it does--because of fear.

26 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Ned would have no reason to believe that Jon's life would be in danger if he had merely been the child of Arthur and Lyanna.

Robert neither murdered nor commanded the murder of Rhaegar's children, but excused Tywin's murder of Rhaegar's children after he had already murdered them and presented their bodies to him. And even after Robert had come to hate Targaryens, Jon had been able to persuade him for fourteen years not to pursue the murder of Viserys and Daenerys.

Robert does something Ned never dreamed he would do when he condones the murder of those babies. Ned is beyond horrified--not that Tywin would do it, but that Robert would go along with it. He's just found out his bestest friend, his foster brother, will condone pure monstrosity.

He's got very good reason to ask, "what else might Robert do if angry enough? Do I even know this guy?"

Plus the question isn't "what would Robert do?" but "what might Robert do, and since I've just seen him do something I never dreamed he could, how much risk will I take with another baby?"

26 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Tywin didn't murder Rhaegar's children because Robert hated Rhaegar, but because they were heirs to the Targaryen throne that Robert had just plopped his ass atop, and which Tywin obviously had intentions to see a grandson sit.

Yup--but Robert doesn't kill Rhaegar in his dreams every night because of the throne. He does it over Lyanna.

26 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Robert might have shifted his hatred from Rhaegar to Arthur, but no matter how much Robert would have hated the dead Dayne, neither Robert nor Tywin would have had the incentive to kill a child of Arthur and Lyanna that they had to see Rhaegar's legitimate children killed.

Maybe--but as I said above, Ned's just seen Robert do something he never, ever thought Robert would do. Just seen that Robert could do something monstrous (in Ned's eyes). He's got very good reason to fear Robert's madness and grief. To not trust Robert at all when it comes to anything about Lyanna and the man who "took" her from Robert.

Plus there's Lyanna herself. When Ned makes the promise, he doesn't see "the well-reasoned argument" go out of her eyes. Or "the calmly presented and well-debated pro-con list" go out of her eyes.

He sees the fear go out of her eyes. We don't know exactly what the promise was--but there's a whopping good chance it was "protect my baby from the man who condoned baby murder." And there's no reason to think her fear had to be completely reasonable.  

Again: Robert's done something Ned (and probably Lyanna) never thought possible. They've both got reason to be afraid--and, at least in this moment, perhaps think they don't know him at all.

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That would be one hell of a solid Rhaegar did for his buddy if he helped Arthur run away with Lyanna. Not sure why Rhaegar would have to stay at the ToJ with them when war broke out though. Arthur not being at least in the Tower while Lyanna was dying from birthing their son was kind of jerk move. Maybe it was all a jerk move on Arthur's part, he saw how the Stark brothers were lusting after his sister Ashara and wanted to get even. If all that was true Ned telling Bran Arthur Dayne was the finest knight he ever saw would seem...odd.

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5 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

That would be one hell of a solid Rhaegar did for his buddy if he helped Arthur run away with Lyanna.

Why must that be the scenario? It's not the scenario with Jon and Ygritte. Mance, full of Rhaegar imagery, isn't doing Ygritte a solid when he holds onto Jon instead of killing him. Mance holds Jon--a Stark maid-- because he's a useful hostage.

The brotherhood aren't helping Gendry's awkward crush on Arya by holding onto Lyanna's look-alike-neice. They hold onto Arya the Stark maid because she's a useful hostage.

Given what Martin has shown us about why people hold onto stolen Stark maids, there's a whopping good chance Rhaegar just took/held onto her as a useful hostage.

And, like Ygritte falls for Jon, Arthur fell for Lyanna: a valiant sworn brother falling for a wild northern girl. A warrior follower of a Rhaegar figure falling for a Stark maid. Fits pretty well.

5 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Not sure why Rhaegar would have to stay at the ToJ with them when war broke out though.

Nothing in the text requires anyone to hide out in that tower. We're shown the opposite: the brotherhood moves around with their stolen Stark maid. And Baelish takes Sansa to an unnamed tower for a short time--then moves her to the Eyrie under disguise.

5 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Arthur not being at least in the Tower while Lyanna was dying from birthing their son was kind of jerk move

Unless Lyanna isn't in the tower (nothing in the text requires anyone to be in the tower at the time of the fight) and Arthur had another mission--Jon leaves Ygritte because he has another mission, no matter how much he loves her. He's not a "jerk"--he's torn between love and duty and chooses duty. Like father, like son?

5 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Maybe it was all a jerk move on Arthur's part, he saw how the Stark brothers were lusting after his sister Ashara and wanted to get even. If all that was true Ned telling Bran Arthur Dayne was the finest knight he ever saw would seem...odd.

Would be very odd if as you state above. 

But if it went down more like it goes down with Jon--if Jon is echoing his father--then much less odd.

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9 hours ago, Euron III Greyjoy said:

Sure, the rules state that only a member of House Dayne can wield Dawn, but so what? If someone without Dayne blood tries to wield it will their body disintegrate or something. I highly doubt it. So surely, if the sword is going to be used at all, we could see it getting wielded by anyone. 

Generally speaking, a theory that incorporates the evidence is better than one that dismisses the evidence as meaningless.  I'm not saying that Jon Snow is a Dayne.  I just think a good theory would try to account for the evidence provided.

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