Poll: Secret Stark Knights

[Aurane]

No. Also, do the Royce's follow the seven? I beleive that most of their kids are knights.

[Back door hodor]

No

[Legitimate_Bastard]

7 hours ago, Aurane said:

No. Also, do the Royce's follow the seven? I beleive that most of their kids are knights.

That's a good question.

I am thinking OG.

But they swore fealty to Artys Arryn, who was an Andal and I assume a follower of the 7. So maybe they converted at that point?

The runic armor and whatnot makes me go with OG.

Interested to see what other folk think about this.

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

But they swore fealty to Artys Arryn, who was an Andal and I assume a follower of the 7. So maybe they converted at that point?

The Blackwoods are sworn to the Tullys, and they’re OG all the way.

 

[The Wondering Wolf]

19 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

That's a good question.

I am thinking OG.

But they swore fealty to Artys Arryn, who was an Andal and I assume a follower of the 7. So maybe they converted at that point?

The runic armor and whatnot makes me go with OG.

Interested to see what other folk think about this.

They have a septon and are knights, pretty sure they follow the Seven.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The Blackwoods are sworn to the Tullys, and they’re OG all the way.

 

I dug for some quotes and perused the wiki - couldn't come up with anything solid.

But I shall keep searching!

[Bael's Bastard]

We don't have a definitive answer to whether the Royces worship the old gods, the seven, or both. They are clearly proud of their First Men heritage, but there are also clearly a lot of Royce knights. 

[Legitimate_Bastard]

1 minute ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

They have a septon and are knights, pretty sure they follow the Seven.

I wonder how they could legitimately say their armor is magical without some belief in the OG's. 

Good point though - they are indeed knights. Not sure how much having a septon makes a difference by its self. The Starks have Chayle.

There is definitely some hybridization going. Again, hybrid is a bad word to use. But seems like a lot of houses borrow from both the OG and the New,

[The Wondering Wolf]

I think this sentence from F&B makes it pretty clear:

And there were still certain houses that had never accepted the Seven, no more than the northmen had, the Blackwoods in the riverlands chief amongst them, and mayhaps as many as a dozen more.

If the Royces still followed the Old Gods, they would have been mentioned here.

[Bael's Bastard]

3 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I think this sentence from F&B makes it pretty clear:

And there were still certain houses that had never accepted the Seven, no more than the northmen had, the Blackwoods in the riverlands chief amongst them, and mayhaps as many as a dozen more.

If the Royces still followed the Old Gods, they would have been mentioned here.

Without knowing who the other "perhaps as many as a dozen more" are, we can't definitively rule out the Royces. 

[The Wondering Wolf]

11 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Without knowing who the other "perhaps as many as a dozen more" are, we can't definitively rule out the Royces. 

Maybe we can not rule it out, but it sounds like the Blackwoods are the most important OG house in the south. Since the Royces seem to be the second Vale house, it would have made sense to mention them.

In the end all we have is a house that is proud of its First Men inheritage. But it is never mentioned to follow the Old Gods, it has a septon and its members are knights. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

3 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

In the end all we have is a house that is proud of its First Men inheritage. But it is never mentioned to follow the Old Gods, it has a septon and its members are knights. 

I'm not saying that the Royces follow the old gods, but House Stark had a septon, a septa and a sept, but Ned was still devout to the old gods. And they were there because of Catelyn who followed the seven. 

And I could be 100% wrong about this, mainly because I don't remember whether it was ever mentioned, but I think Ned took his marriage vows in the sept of Riverrun rather than before the heart tree in that double wedding.

[The Wondering Wolf]

35 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I'm not saying that the Royces follow the old gods, but House Stark had a septon, a septa and a sept, but Ned was still devout to the old gods. And they were there because of Catelyn who followed the seven. 

And I could be 100% wrong about this, mainly because I don't remember whether it was ever mentioned, but I think Ned took his marriage vows in the sept of Riverrun rather than before the heart tree in that double wedding.

The Starks have a septon and we know the reason for that. But in opposite to the Royces the Starks are mentioned to follow the Old Gods and they are not knights. Same goes for the Blackwoods. So could the Royces follow the Old Gods? Sure. Is there any reason to believe that they do? Not really.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Found a quote from Ser Bartimus;

Davos could not argue with the truth of that. From what he had seen at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, he did not care to know winter either. "What gods do you keep?" he asked the one-legged knight.
"The old ones." When Ser Bartimus grinned, he looked just like a skull. "Me and mine were here before the Manderlys. [snip]" (Davos IV, ADWD 29)

[kissdbyfire]

Nice one, @Alexis-something-Rose! I’ve read/listened to that chapter a million times but had forgot this bit of dialogue. 

On Rickard and/or Brandon being knights b/c “southron ambitions”... another thing besides the secrecy/lack of mention that makes it unlikely IMO is, what about the rest of the north? The Starks are the northern great house, WotN, etc. If there was a conspiracy, either the STAB alliance or something else, Rickard would still want the other northern houses and clans to remain loyal to WF. And I imagine the other houses in on it would want the same, as to be able to field the most men if push comes to shove. W/ that in mind, would it make sense for Rickard to basically piss off the vast majority of northerners? 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

But in opposite to the Royces the Starks are mentioned to follow the Old Gods and they are not knights.

The Royce house does have knights. 

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I'm not saying that the Royces follow the old gods, but House Stark had a septon, a septa and a sept, but Ned was still devout to the old gods. And they were there because of Catelyn who followed the seven. 

And I could be 100% wrong about this, mainly because I don't remember whether it was ever mentioned, but I think Ned took his marriage vows in the sept of Riverrun rather than before the heart tree in that double wedding.

Maybe this?

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn X

She was no stranger to waiting, after all. Her men had always made her wait. "Watch for me, little cat," her father would always tell her, when he rode off to court or fair or battle. And she would, standing patiently on the battlements of Riverrun as the waters of the Red Fork and the Tumblestone flowed by. He did not always come when he said he would, and days would ofttimes pass as Catelyn stood her vigil, peering out between crenels and through arrow loops until she caught a glimpse of Lord Hoster on his old brown gelding, trotting along the river-shore toward the landing. "Did you watch for me?" he'd ask when he bent to hug her. "Did you, little cat?"

Brandon Stark had bid her wait as well. "I shall not be long, my lady," he had vowed. "We will be wed on my return." Yet when the day came at last, it was his brother Eddard who stood beside her in the sept.

Ned had lingered scarcely a fortnight with his new bride before he too had ridden off to war with promises on his lips. At least he had left her with more than words; he had given her a son. Nine moons had waxed and waned, and Robb had been born in Riverrun while his father still warred in the south. She had brought him forth in blood and pain, not knowing whether Ned would ever see him. Her son. He had been so small …

 

But there does seem to be a weirwood at Riverrun anyway... just to make things easy-peasey for us readers, amiright?

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn XI

It was what Ned would have done. He is his father's son as much as mine, I must remember. Oh, gods, Ned …

She found Robb beneath the green canopy of leaves, surrounded by tall redwoods and great old elms, kneeling before the heart tree, a slender weirwood with a face more sad than fierce. His longsword was before him, the point thrust in the earth, his gloved hands clasped around the hilt. Around him others knelt: Greatjon Umber, Rickard Karstark, Maege Mormont, Galbart Glover, and more. Even Tytos Blackwood was among them, the great raven cloak fanned out behind him. These are the ones who keep the old gods, she realized. She asked herself what gods she kept these days, and could not find an answer.

And it seems the sept is in the garden where the weirwood is... so a symbolic usurping or joining of sorts?

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VI

I gave Brandon my favor to wear, and never comforted Petyr once after he was wounded, nor bid him farewell when Father sent him off. And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned's face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty.

Her steps took her to the sept, a seven-sided sandstone temple set amidst her mother's gardens and filled with rainbow light. It was crowded when they entered; Catelyn was not alone in her need for prayer. She knelt before the painted marble image of the Warrior and lit a scented candle for Edmure and another for Robb off beyond the hills. Keep them safe and help them to victory, she prayed, and bring peace to the souls of the slain and comfort to those they leave behind.

And all this talk of the Andals infiltrating customs to skew them as their own, or to minimize the old ways, etc, also seems to happen with the Night's Watch vows.

[The Fattest Leech]

22 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Due to the lively discussion in a recent thread, I wish to know who among you think that Rickard and Brandon Stark were actually secret Knights, and had converted to the Faith of the Seven.

So the poll is simple.

Yes or No. Were Rickard Stark and Brandon Stark actually knights?

Please read this thread for more on the topic.

 

No, I do not think there was any secret converting to the Faith of Seven by any old godders.

As far as knighthood goes, wordplay aside or in addition to, I don't know that knighthood is restricted to the Andals for origin. As with the NW vows, the Andals could be twisting the meaning and that is where we get the in-universe struggle between being a "true knight" and just "following orders". We see that same darned thing happening with the Night's Watch. Doing what is right, or just following orders like a mouth breather. First Man origin character John the Oak seems to be mentioned as the first knight. This created house Oakhert, as in heart tree. I posted in another thread:

... as far as knighthood, or at least the chivalry aspects to it and the moral code that "true knights" should follow, I don't know if that is an Andal specific or Andal only trait. What we are given in the books about knights seems to come from first men origins. 

I think Bran asking to be a knight has many layers... like an onion . Bran wants to be a knight, but he can't because of his legs, but he will be a knight of the mind. Be careful what you wish for in a GRRM story. You just might get it. Bran and Jon are continuing to reenact history (to a degree).

I do think that in order for humanity to not just survive, but to learn better and rebuild better, there will be some merges of knowledge and principles = societal evolution? Dunno. Just a guess.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Garth Greenhand

Many of the more primitive peoples of the earth worship a fertility god or goddess, and Garth Greenhand has much and more in common with these deities. It was Garth who first taught men to farm, it is said. Before him, all men were hunters and gatherers, rootless wanderers forever in search of sustenance, until Garth gave them the gift of seed and showed them how to plant and sow, how to raise crops and reap the harvest. (In some tales, he tried to teach the elder races as well, but the giants roared at him and pelted him with boulders, whilst the children laughed and told him that the gods of the wood provided for all their needs). Where he walked, farms and villages and orchards sprouted up behind him. About his shoulders was slung a canvas bag, heavy with seed, which he scattered as he went along. As befits a god, his bag was inexhaustible; within were seeds for all the world's trees and grains and fruits and flowers.

<b>John the Oak</b>, the First Knight, who brought chivalry to Westeros (a huge man, all agree, eight feet tall in some tales, ten or twelve feet tall in others, sired by Garth Greenhand on a giantess). His own descendants became the Oakhearts of Old Oak.

A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

Broken, Bran thought bitterly as he clutched his knife. Is that what he was now? Bran the Broken? "I don't want to be broken," he whispered fiercely to Maester Luwin, who'd been seated to his right. "I want to be a knight."

"There are some who call my order the knights of the mind," Luwin replied. "You are a surpassing clever boy when you work at it, Bran. Have you ever thought that you might wear a maester's chain? There is no limit to what you might learn."

"I want to learn magic," Bran told him. "The crow promised that I would fly."

[The Wondering Wolf]

25 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

The Royce house does have knights. 

Oh, I meant the Starks. Maybe the wording was not clear enough.

[Lord Varys]

@Ran spoke a little bit about those other houses in the south who supposedly still follow the old gods. George apparently wanted to give more examples than just the Blackwoods, and Ran drew up a list of houses in the south with no visible ties to the Seven. Those are not many houses, and certainly not a house as prominent as the Royces.

If George gives us some houses who still stick to the old gods exclusively my guess would be to look for such houses in rural places in the West, the Riverlands, the Stormlands, and Dorne. But the smallfolk in the Riverlands apparently got a significant revival of old gods worship among the smallfolk in the wake of Cregan's men marrying a lot of women there. That apparently had lasting impact. Perhaps we'll see some of that in TWoW.

But the Vale should be completely andalized by now, and the Reach, too, although the amicable conversion there seems to strongly imply that more actual First Men traditions may have survived/be incorporated there than anywhere else considering that the Three Singers still stand at Highgarden.

There is no chances that the Andal Arryns would have allowed the Royces to climb back to power through the ages if the Royces had continued to refuse to convert to the Faith. The First Men refusing the accept the new way were hounded into the mountains. The Royces not being with them means they converted to the Seven.

And since the Blackwoods make a point of not being knights to mark the fact that they don't follow the Seven one would expect that such houses doing the same would also follow the Blackwoods in this regard - i.e. the men from houses who do not follow the Seven wouldn't be knights. Just as the Ironborn are mostly not knights.

Ancient heirlooms and First Men roots prove pretty much nothing. The Hightowers have First Men roots, too, and they live in a castle whose foundation might even be older than the First Men, yet nobody in his or her right mind would suggest that the Hightowers did not espouse the Seven.

The Royces having old armor means about as much as the Lannisters still keeping First Men stuff from Lann's days.

But in general it is pretty silly to insist that this is all that much of dichotomy or a paradox. Men swear by the old gods and the new. The Faith is not Christianity killing off all the heathens and/or forcefully converting them and forcing them to cut the ties to their past. It is much more complex. You can follow both the Seven and the old gods in this world, and essentially all lords who keep proper godswoods in their castles do that.

Their day-to-day spiritual life is shaped by the tenets of the Faith, sure, but they also incorporated First Men traditions like the First Night for ages, and presumably some other such traditions as well.

In that sense, there is also no issue with a Stark becoming a knight. He could pray in a sept just as well as he could pray in a godswood. Those things are not necessarily mutually exclusive.