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Angel Eyes

Why did Ned leave the bodies of his companions in Dorne?

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Was he so invested in getting Lyanna's bones and Jon into safe territory that he had them so hastily buried and didn't dare go back to Dorne to recover them? It certainly did him no favors with the Ryswells and Dustins. 

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I remember someone saying on here that the 8 graves that were dug in Dorne were for the 5 of Ned's companions, 2 on the Kingsguard and...Lyanna. People want to believe Arthur Dayne is alive and considering everything it makes sense. Like why the heir of Starfall thinks highly of Ned. Also signs of Lyanna's pregnancy would have been apparent so burying her in Dorne would also make sense. It doesn't make sense that Lyanna wanted to be buried in the crypts of Winterfell so it's probably another lie Ned told Robert. 

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Was he so invested in getting Lyanna's bones and Jon into safe territory that he had them so hastily buried and didn't dare go back to Dorne to recover them? It certainly did him no favors with the Ryswells and Dustins. 

Would he even be welcome in Dorne?

Also, now that I think about it, Rhaegar has some nerve bringing his paramour into the very region where his wife is from!

Edited by James Steller

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1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Would he even be welcome in Dorne?

Also, now that I think about it, Rhaegar has some nerve bringing his paramour into the very region where his wife is from!

Even if Rhaegar took Lyanna for a second wife, setting her up in Dorne is a massive insult. It would have been wiser (on so many levels) if he had taken her to Dragonstone or Driftmark.

That's why I never blamed the Dornishmen for being so slow in showing their support for Aerys and Rhaegar. Personally, I've always thought that the infamous Dornish outrage was more about the murders of Aegon, Rhaenys and Elia and had nothing to do with the racist looney tune Aerys or his space cadet son. They may not have ever really cared about Viserys or Daenerys, only seeing them as a weapon to use against the rest of the realm.

And I haven't found anything that even implied that anyone south of the Red Mountains paid Rhaella any mind.

So yeah...

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Was he so invested in getting Lyanna's bones and Jon into safe territory that he had them so hastily buried and didn't dare go back to Dorne to recover them? It certainly did him no favors with the Ryswells and Dustins. 

This is a good question. It would not have been hard to take the bodies of his men back to the North. He didn't even have to take the bodies back with him; he just needed to send them ahead.

Ever (and especially) since the events in Dance resurrected this interesting tidbit from Game, I think this is a question that will be answered sometime in the next two books. My guess is the next book. The Areo POV chapters are going to give us a deeper, richer view of Dorne and, particularly, House Dayne in Winds.

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So previously I just attributed this to some poetic license from George or even simple oversight in the early books when he simply forgot to consider this inconsistency.

These days, though, I like to fantasize about a deeper meaning, such as there being no bones to bury due to them not really being dead.

But I just struggle to understand the purpose or logic behind such a move. Any hidden duty to act as Jon’s secret protectors could have been achieved much better by these men being lords of their Houses rather than creeping around in the shadows for 16 years.

Although it does make one wonder about the Hooded Man in Winterfell for a moment.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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11 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Was he so invested in getting Lyanna's bones and Jon into safe territory that he had them so hastily buried and didn't dare go back to Dorne to recover them? It certainly did him no favors with the Ryswells and Dustins. 

He was going to take all the bones back to their homes or none at all. The easiest one to take back with him because he was headed to Starfall was going to be Arthur's which as far as we know, he did not. 

And as far as the Ryswells and Dustins go, I don't think we should take Barbrey's feelings as being general consensus or the way the other members of her family feel about this. It was war and I don't think there's any true expectation that all the dead will be returned to their homes.  

10 hours ago, flaydagawd said:

It doesn't make sense that Lyanna wanted to be buried in the crypts of Winterfell so it's probably another lie Ned told Robert. 

I think it makes plenty sense that Lyanna wanted to return home. Whatever happened between her and Rhaegar and regardless of what the truth is, in the last moments of her life, she was a mother who was worried for the safety of her child. If Ned told her he was taking Jon with him to Winterfell to raise him there, then I can see her wanting to be there as a way to be closer to her son. 

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6 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So previously I just attributed this to some poetic license from George or even simple oversight in the early books when he simply forgot to consider this inconsistency.

These days, though, I like to fantasize about a deeper meaning, such as there being no bones to bury due to them not really being dead.

But I just struggle to understand the purpose or logic behind such a move. Any hidden duty to act as Jon’s secret protectors could have been achieved much better by these men being lords of their Houses rather than creeping around in the shadows for 16 years.

Although it does make one wonder about the Hooded Man in Winterfell for a moment.

If the Kingsguard where alive, I don't think they would've let Jon join the Night's Watch. If he is forever giving up any claim he could potentially have to the throne, then what would be the point in protecting him. 

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14 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

It would not have been hard to take the bodies of his men back to the North. He didn't even have to take the bodies back with him; he just needed to send them ahead.

How would he take 6 bodies back north? Who would he send them with?  All accounts point to Ned and Reed being the only survivors.  We can assume a wet nurse or septa was there to help Lyanna give birth, but there is nothing to suggest that others were there to even help prepare the bodies for the trip. 

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There are so many things wrong with the entire story of Robert's Rebellion, I honestly don't see how it can all be resolved satisfactorily. Maybe this is the stumbling block in the last two books? The RR Knot?

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18 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Was he so invested in getting Lyanna's bones and Jon into safe territory that he had them so hastily buried and didn't dare go back to Dorne to recover them? It certainly did him no favors with the Ryswells and Dustins. 

No, he actually had the time to pick apart the Tower of Joy, stone by stone. God knows how long that took. 

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Taking one body several thousand miles back to Winterfell was probably not terribly easy.  Taking a total of six would have been likely quite difficult.  As I mentioned, it is a very long journey.  A lot eaier to bury them there.  

We don't know how large the ToJ was or in what condition it was in.  If it was fairly small (like a small guard or border tower) and in poor condition, it could probably be taken down, especially with access to numerous horses to do the pulling.

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The reason he did not return the bodies of (most of) his companions, is that they were not Lords.

Lyanna was a Lady, who, by tradition, deserved a place in the Crypts of Winterfell.

Willam Dustin was a lord, who most likely had similar traditions, relating to the barrows of Barrowtown. 

No other person would have any particular expectation of being returned home for burial.  They would be buried where they had fallen, and that would be honor enough.

So the only real mystery is Dustin.  Why were his bones not returned?  It seems a small price to pay for maintaining friendly relations with a major vassal.  But because the bones were not returned, Lady Dustin bears a lasting grudge.

All of them would need cairns, to protect their bodies, until the bones were ready for transportation.

And yet, at the Tower of Joy, we apparently have 9 corpses and 8 cairns.

Who got left out?  People assume that it was Lyanna, because her bones were returned to Winterfell.  But that's not necessarily logical.  Her body should still need a cairn.

I think it was Dustin who did not get a cairn.  Because he was still alive at that point.  He did indeed die in Dorne, but he died later; when Ned was no longer around to make a cairn to protect his body.

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I think it’s quite harsh, the war was over, KL had fallen, Storms End was freed from siege, these fine men and boys had survived countless battles and no doubt wanted to go home, they came face to face with three of the finest fighters in the history of the 7 Kingdoms, all untouched by the war, for the sake of one person who died anyway, and they all, except Reed and Ned, lost their lives.

 

If their families wanted their bones, like the Dustins, Ned should really have made arrangements

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11 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Lyanna was a Lady, who, by tradition, deserved a place in the Crypts of Winterfell.

That's the thing though -- she DIDN'T 'deserve' a place in the crypts. That's for Kings and Lords by tradition. Her burial there broke the tradition, but that's by the by.

 

As for the rest of Ned's companions - they fell in battle and were buried on the battlefield, however small-scale the battle may have been. This is not at all unusual and doesn't need explaining. It was the done thing, regardless of Barbrey's whingeing.

If our accounts of the ToJ are correct, then there were two people (Ned and Howland) left to deal with nine corpses, a squalling baby, and a magic sword. Maybe there were handmaids or wet-nurses on hand, but who knows? And of those nine corpses, six of them were thousands of leagues away from home. There were probably thousands more northern corpses buried all across the south in the wake of the Rebellion, including numerous Lords. Why should these five be any different? They were buried decently in the eyes of gods and men, end of.

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On 2/12/2019 at 9:43 PM, flaydagawd said:

I remember someone saying on here that the 8 graves that were dug in Dorne were for the 5 of Ned's companions, 2 on the Kingsguard and...Lyanna. People want to believe Arthur Dayne is alive and considering everything it makes sense. Like why the heir of Starfall thinks highly of Ned. Also signs of Lyanna's pregnancy would have been apparent so burying her in Dorne would also make sense. It doesn't make sense that Lyanna wanted to be buried in the crypts of Winterfell so it's probably another lie Ned told Robert. 

Well, people at Starfall think highly of Ned because he returned Dawn. Something he didn't have to do. 

Edited by Daemon The Black Dragon

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29 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

That's the thing though -- she DIDN'T 'deserve' a place in the crypts. That's for Kings and Lords by tradition. Her burial there broke the tradition, but that's by the by.

That's not entirely true. 

Ned stopped at last and lifted the oil lantern. The crypt continued on into darkness ahead of them, but beyond this point the tombs were empty and unsealed; black holes waiting for their dead, waiting for him and his children. Ned did not like to think on that. "Here," he told his king. (Eddard I, AGoT 4)

Robb took them all the way down to the end, past Grandfather and Brandon and Lyanna, to show them their own tombs. (Arya IV, AGoT 50)

He had never feared the crypts; they were part of his home and who he was, and he had always known that one day he would lie here too. (Bran VII, ACoK 69) 

The break with tradition is not that Lyanna didn't have her place in the crypts, because she certainly did. The break is that by tradition, she should have been buried without a statue. 

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1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

That's not entirely true. 

Yes, you're right.

Although ~90% of references to the crypts mention the kings and lords, it never actually says they're the only ones there. It just creates a very strong impression that that should be so.... but I found the bit about statues:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"Do you recall your history, Bran?" the maester said as they walked. "Tell Osha who they were and what they did, if you can."
.............They were almost at the end now, and Bran felt a sadness creeping over him. "And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."

That's why I was thinking the crypts were only for the Lords.... :dunce:

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2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

That's the thing though -- she DIDN'T 'deserve' a place in the crypts. That's for Kings and Lords by tradition. Her burial there broke the tradition, but that's by the by.

There is nothing remarkable about Lyanna and Brandon being buried in the crypts, only about them having statues, which is supposed to be for lords and kings.

His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."

- AGOT: Bran VII

And even then, someone had already made an exception to have a statue made for Artos the Implacable, the younger brother of Lord Willam and uncle of Lord Rickard's father Lord Edwyle, some time in the sixty years before Ned made an exception to do so for Lyanna and Brandon.

When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord Jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight. On their stone chairs they sat with stone wolves at their feet. This was where they came when the warmth had seeped out of their bodies; this was the dark hall of the dead, where the living feared to tread.

- ACOK: Bran VII 

The crypts are not reserved for only Stark kings and lords. Luwin intends to inter the bodies of Bran and Rickon in the crypts with the other Stark dead, and Bran's POV notes that he had always known that one day he would be interred there.

Only Maester Luwin had the stomach to come near. Stone-faced, the small grey man had begged leave to sew the boys' heads back onto their shoulders, so they might be laid in the crypts below with the other Stark dead.

- ACOK: Theon V

Their footsteps echoed through the cavernous crypts. The shadows behind them swallowed his father as the shadows ahead retreated to unveil other statues; no mere lords, these, but the old Kings in the North. On their brows they wore stone crowns. Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. Edwyn the Spring King. Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf. Brandon the Burner and Brandon the Shipwright. Jorah and Jonos, Brandon the Bad, Walton the Moon King, Edderion the Bridegroom, Eyron, Benjen the Sweet and Benjen the Bitter, King Edrick Snowbeard. Their faces were stern and strong, and some of them had done terrible things, but they were Starks every one, and Bran knew all their tales. He had never feared the crypts; they were part of his home and who he was, and he had always known that one day he would lie here too.

- ACOK: Bran VII
 



 

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On 2/12/2019 at 9:47 PM, James Steller said:

Would he even be welcome in Dorne?

Also, now that I think about it, Rhaegar has some nerve bringing his paramour into the very region where his wife is from!

They are fine with paramours there. Very sexually liberal in Dorne.

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15 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

The reason he did not return the bodies of (most of) his companions, is that they were not Lords.

Lyanna was a Lady, who, by tradition, deserved a place in the Crypts of Winterfell.

Willam Dustin was a lord, who most likely had similar traditions, relating to the barrows of Barrowtown. 

No other person would have any particular expectation of being returned home for burial.  They would be buried where they had fallen, and that would be honor enough.

So the only real mystery is Dustin.  Why were his bones not returned?  It seems a small price to pay for maintaining friendly relations with a major vassal.  But because the bones were not returned, Lady Dustin bears a lasting grudge.

All of them would need cairns, to protect their bodies, until the bones were ready for transportation.

And yet, at the Tower of Joy, we apparently have 9 corpses and 8 cairns.

Who got left out?  People assume that it was Lyanna, because her bones were returned to Winterfell.  But that's not necessarily logical.  Her body should still need a cairn.

I think it was Dustin who did not get a cairn.  Because he was still alive at that point.  He did indeed die in Dorne, but he died later; when Ned was no longer around to make a cairn to protect his body.

Negative she was the only female mentioned being buried in the crypts of Winterfell.

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