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A new look at the puple wedding

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2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

True, but there is a difference between chaos caused by someone you cannot control and chaos caused by someone you can control. And Littlefinger is one of two people on the planet who have demonstrated an ability to control Joffrey, the other being Margaery and, by extension, Lady Olenna.

So with Joffrey, they have the perfect piece through which to further their Games of Thrones right away, whereas without him they have to wait five years while Cersei continues on as Queen Regent with Tywin as Hand.

And you'll note that the only reason Littlefinger now has to deal with Cersei's chaos is because Tywin is dead. And who was responsible for that little bit of uncontrollable, unforeseeable chaos? Tyrion.

I don't get this fixation of the forum with LF and chaos. This wasn't in the books at all. The only mention of chaos and LF is chaos being inflicted upon him and that being a problem. 

If you want to conflate book LF with a LF not from the books at all, that's your call. I'm sticking with the books myself. :cheers:

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In a feudal system for a person of low birth to increase their standing quickly as LF does there needs to be some measure of upheaval. People need to be stripped of stuff in order for other people to be rewarded with stuff. LF grew the war and then picked which side he thought would benefit him most. He required that chaos of war, facilitated it, operated within it, and personally benefited from it. The show characterised well how he operated.

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4 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

In a feudal system for a person of low birth to increase their standing quickly as LF does there needs to be some measure of upheaval. People need to be stripped of stuff in order for other people to be rewarded with stuff. LF grew the war and then picked which side he thought would benefit him most. He required that chaos of war, facilitated it, operated within it, and personally benefited from it. The show characterised well how he operated.

If this was really in response to me, this wasn't my point. What I said:

18 hours ago, Lollygag said:

LF isn’t a single-minded, chaos-making, bull-in-a-china-shop idiot. He has a goal(s). He makes plans years and years out ahead. But when unexpected things happen, he does his best to maximize the opportunity rather than waste an unplanned advantage when it falls into his lap. He’s comfortable (arrogant?) enough in his abilities to improvise that he doesn’t shy away from very risky decisions. He's an opportunist in the extreme.

AFFC Alayne II

He did not hold her kiss against her. "You would not believe half of what is happening in King's Landing, sweetling. Cersei stumbles from one idiocy to the next, helped along by her council of the deaf, the dim, and the blind. I always anticipated that she would beggar the realm and destroy herself, but I never expected she would do it quite so fast. It is quite vexing. I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now . . . it is a good thing that I thrive on chaos. What little peace and order the five kings left us will not long survive the three queens, I fear."

1: LF is thinking of taking out Cersei because she’s too chaotic and ruining his schedule. A mess isn't always in LF's favor. 

2. 4 or 5 years for seeds to ripen, he’s mapping out possible options years in advance.

3. Chaos is being inflicted upon LF here and he's not causing it himself it in this statement. This is the only reference to chaos & LF in the books. 

 

Basically, if a reader tries to breakdown LF’s motivations to just wanting to make the maximum amount of mess, they're going to miss the mark as there's more going on than that. 

 

If people want to try to figure out what LF's up to, stick with the book content and stop treating show content as book canon. Chaos wasn't ever the end goal for LF. It was only one of many, many options to attain an ends. Like I said, an opportunist in the extreme. 

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Um, yeah, Martin himself put this to rest long ago:

Quote

Rolling Stone: That killing apparently happens early in this fourth season. The Song of Ice and Fire books, of course, are well past the poisoning of King Joffrey. 

Martin: In the books — and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal — the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa’s hair net, so that if anyone actually did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it.

 
The reason I bring this up is because I think that’s an interesting question of redemption. That’s more like killing Hitler. Does the Queen of Thorns need redemption? Did the Queen of Thorns kill Hitler, or did she murder a 13-year-old boy? Or both? She certainly had good reasons to remove Joffrey. Everything she’d heard about him, he was wildly unstable, and he was about to marry her beloved granddaughter. The Queen of Thorns had studied Joffrey well enough that she knew that at some point he would get bored with Margaery, and Margaery would be maltreated, the same way that Sansa had been. Whereas if she removed him then her granddaughter might still get the crown but without all of the danger. So is that a case where the end justifies the means? I don’t know. That’s what I want the reader or viewer to wrestle with, and to debate. 

Here Martin not only tells the world in no uncertain terms exactly what he made happen in the Purple Wedding, but even more importantly, why he made it happen and what he wanted to evoke in the audience by doing so.  There are many mysteries in ASoIaF but the Purple Wedding isn't one of them.

And, @Lollygag, I agree with what you're saying about Littlefinger and "chaos".

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5 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Um, yeah, Martin himself put this to rest long ago:

Only if one wilfully ignores the disclaimer in which he says he's not putting anything to rest.

Quote

In the books — and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal —

 

9 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

If this was really in response to me, this wasn't my point. What I said:

If people want to try to figure out what LF's up to, stick with the book content and stop treating show content as book canon. Chaos wasn't ever the end goal for LF. It was only one of many, many options to attain an ends. Like I said, an opportunist in the extreme. 

In isolation your post would give the wrong impression of LF and his use of chaos. It is part of the point of the character, what the character exists to demonstrate. There are few constructive avenues for capable people of ambition in the system to advance themselves and that the temptation to turn to chaotic destructive measures is strong.

Edited by chrisdaw

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Just now, chrisdaw said:

Only if one wilfully ignores the disclaimer in which he says he's not putting anything to rest.

 

He absolutely put ti to rest - completely.  And he even described why he wrote it as he did.

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6 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

He absolutely put ti to rest - completely.  And he even described why he wrote it as he did.

That's fine, you can think that.

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Just now, chrisdaw said:

In isolation your post would give the wrong impression of LF and his use of chaos.

I can see that. I don't expect people to micro-read every post in any given thread (I don't), but it would help avoid confusion to get a gist of the context of a conversation before commenting. 

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'Shae was helping Sansa with her hair when they entered the bedchamber. Joy and grief, he thought when he beheld them there together. Laughter and tears. Sansa wore a gown of silvery satin trimmed in vair, with dagged sleeves that almost touched the floor, lined in soft purple felt. She as arranged her hair artfully in a delicate silver net winking with dark purple gemstones.' 

Shae is the one who placed the hair net in Sansa's hair that day.  
How is it that a whore knows how to fix a lady's hair?

Maybe she didn't do the job as neatly as a real lady's maid?
And Lady Olenna noticed that the job was not done as well as it should have been.

"You do look quite exquisite, child," Lady Olenna Tyrell told Sansa when she trotted up to them in a cloth-of-gold gown that must have weighed more than she did. "The wind has been at your hair though." The little old woman reached up and fussed at the loose strands, tucking them back into place and straightening Sansa's hair net. . . "

So who had access to the hair net and black amethyst? Well, we have two possible suspects mentioned here.
I know Shae wasn't at the feast, but once she has possession of the amethyst, all she has to do is get it into the hands of the person who has been arranged to do the poisoning.  IF she is the one who took the amethyst.

Edited by Wolfkin

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1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

I can see that. I don't expect people to micro-read every post in any given thread (I don't), but it would help avoid confusion to get a gist of the context of a conversation before commenting. 

My mistake was having addressed you with padded gloving. Let me rephrase, in no context is

4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I don't get this fixation of the forum with LF and chaos. This wasn't in the books at all.

a correct representation of LF. It is wrong and left unchallenged may lead to people misunderstanding the character.

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On 2/14/2019 at 1:15 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Cersei? Heres her ruining Joffrey's favorite game 

Even mentioning Cersei can curb Joff

Really Joffs not that hard to manipulate

The rest of your post I agree with

Eh, is this manipulation? Cersei and Tywin, and even Tyrion, still maintain nominal authority over Joffrey, but how much longer will that last? To me, manipulation is getting Joffrey to do what you want willingly, even though it suits your goals and not his. In that vein, this is manipulation:

Quote

". . . did your little lord husband enjoy my jousting dwarfs?"

"Yours?"

"I had to send to Braavos for them and hide them away in a brothel until the wedding. The expense was exceeded only by the bother. It is surprisingly difficult to hide a dwarf, and Joffrey . . . you can lead a king to water, but with Joff one had to splash it about before he realized he could drink it. When I told him about my little surprise, His Grace said, "why would I want some ugly dwarfs at my feast? I hat dwarfs," I had to take him by the shoulder and whisper, "Not as much as your uncle will."

See the difference between just telling Joffrey what he should do and appealing to his vanity and cruelty to manipulate him into doing it? I look at all manner of actions Joffrey has taken, not just Ned's execution, and see Littlefinger manipulating him like this.

Here is an even better example:

Quote

King Joffrey and his queen met the pie below the dais. As Joff drew his sword, Margaery laid a hand on his arm to restrain him. "Widow's Wail is not meant for slicing pies."

So not only do we have Margaery laying on some thick sexual innuendo ("Oh mighty king, what a large and powerful sword you have"), she also refrains from simply telling Joff, "no, you can't do that," like Sansa would. It's a small thing, but it shows how easily Margaery will soon have Joffrey wrapped around her little finger (har), especially once she gets him into bed and puts all that seduction training she's had from ladies Tanda and Olenna to good use. It will be a long, long time before Margaery has to worry about any violence from Joffrey.

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On 2/14/2019 at 2:18 PM, Lollygag said:

I don't get this fixation of the forum with LF and chaos. This wasn't in the books at all. The only mention of chaos and LF is chaos being inflicted upon him and that being a problem. 

If you want to conflate book LF with a LF not from the books at all, that's your call. I'm sticking with the books myself. :cheers:

Agreed, let's forget about chaos. Let's ask ourselves, since Littlefinger has shown how easily he can manipulate Joffrey (and I think there are many more examples of this that have yet to be revealed), then why would he want him dead? Who better to produce strife both within House Lannister and between Lannister and Tyrell?

And according to book LF, he didn't kill Joff because he was uncontrollable and would somehow interfere with the plan. In fact, he had no reason to kill him at all. If just anybody's death would have worked, then why choose the single most watched person in the room, and why do it in a way that intentionally puts Margaery at such extreme risk?

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22 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Eh, is this manipulation? Cersei and Tywin, and even Tyrion, still maintain nominal authority over Joffrey, but how much longer will that last? To me, manipulation is getting Joffrey to do what you want willingly, even though it suits your goals and not his. In that vein, this is manipulation:

See the difference between just telling Joffrey what he should do and appealing to his vanity and cruelty to manipulate him into doing it? I look at all manner of actions Joffrey has taken, not just Ned's execution, and see Littlefinger manipulating him like this.

Here is an even better example:

So not only do we have Margaery laying on some thick sexual innuendo ("Oh mighty king, what a large and powerful sword you have"), she also refrains from simply telling Joff, "no, you can't do that," like Sansa would. It's a small thing, but it shows how easily Margaery will soon have Joffrey wrapped around her little finger (har), especially once she gets him into bed and puts all that seduction training she's had from ladies Tanda and Olenna to good use. It will be a long, long time before Margaery has to worry about any violence from Joffrey.

Cersei didn't manipulate Joff, she just had classic motherly dominance over her son. Yes she was his regent, but Tywin and Tyrion were his hand and they didn't command Joffs obedience like she did. 

Sansa and Sandor were the manipulators i was referring to with their gnats and name day killings. And soon after 

Quote

"Take him away. I'll have him killed on the morrow, the fool."

"He is," Sansa said. "A fool. You're so clever, to see it. He's better fitted to be a fool than a knight, isn't he? You ought to dress him in motley and make him clown for you. He doesn't deserve the mercy of a quick death."

The king studied her a moment. "Perhaps you're not so stupid as Mother says." He raised his voice. "Did you hear my lady, Dontos? From this day on, you're my new fool. You can sleep with Moon Boy and dress in motley."

 

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On 2/13/2019 at 2:51 AM, divica said:

So we all know litlefinger's story. To cut a long story short to me it has 2 major problems.

1) There is no reason for olenna to sneak poison via sansa's hairnet (like was anyone going to body search olenna tyrell?) and if she was going to commit regicide would she plot it with littlefinger? A dude all smart people distrust and that sold her the whole marriage and is a known lannister friend?

It isn't a real crime, it is fictional, and as a POV story, we need a POV character to convey the plot. In story, the point of involving sansa is to give LF a chance to exert control over her and give her a reason to need to flee. Remember, she is married to a lord of one of the most powerful houses in westeros. 
Remember, Olenna is the brains behind the house and LF was sent to being the reach into the king's fold. He spent lots of time there and at that point in the books, Joff's cruelty was well known.  The plot gives the Tyrells more power and LF gets what he wants. 

On 2/13/2019 at 2:51 AM, divica said:

2) LF motives for killing joffrey are flimsy at best and what did the tyrells offer him? He would need an amazing price to get the poison and keep silent about the whole scheme… And I don t think they would give him sansa who has a claim to the north…

The Tyrells already made him Lord of Harrenhal, and in one deal he went from being a minor lord of the littlest finger to a major lord allowing him to marry the lady of the Vale. The poison is not that hard to get.  Maester Cressen had some on dragonstone.  The point of that scene was to show what the strangler was and did. It's called foreshadowing.  Also, LF is rich, and so are the Tyrells so buying it is not at issue.  They did not need to know that sansa was his goal. He could have offered to set up the murder as payment for the marriage deal he brokered that ultimately conferred him great status. 

On 2/13/2019 at 2:51 AM, divica said:

So what I am sugesting is if LF was able to frame tyrion (and there is some circunstancial evidence that LF could manipulate joff) then instead of killing just joffrey shouldn t he want to kill joffrey AND margaery and frame tyrion for it?

He has no desire to kill the Margery. He brought the Tyrells into the king's fold and because of that he gained profound status. framing Tyrion is what he needed to do to get Sansa away from King's landing. 

On 2/13/2019 at 2:51 AM, divica said:

I mean, by killing the 2 of them it would create a new wave of chaos. The lannister/tyrell aliance would crumble and a new war might even start because the lannisters can t hold westeros alone and the only region that would join them is the vale. And who has great influence in the vale? LITTLEFINGER.

That is a possibility, but since this is not your story, maybe talk to GRRM before assuming you know the motivations of his characters. Why would he wan't chaos then? Why would he wan't the vale to ally itself with the Lannisters? He wasn't a great influence in the vale without Lyssa. and he couldn't marry her without the status of his new lordship. 

what would excluding her do for the plot? This way, The Tyrells are involved. I guess you can think the story would be better if you had written that part. 

On 2/13/2019 at 2:51 AM, divica said:

This would exclude olenna from the scheme. So the poison was sneaked within the hairnet because whoever used it couldn t bring the poison into the wedding any other way…

Then the poison would be in the wine and joffrey took so much time to choke because the dose used was smaller than the one used in the prologue so that both joff and marg would drink the wine before the sintoms manifested.

Tyrion would still be acused and dontos would be able to steal sansa away. However there would be so much chaos that nobody would care about sansa. The tyrells and lannisters would be at each others throats. This would work better for LF.

And then as lisa's new husband he would be in a very strong position because the lannisters needed the vale in order to keep the IT. Sudenly LF would be one of the most powerful people in westeros! \

Did you email GRRM to explain how your version of the story would be better than his? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On ‎2‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 3:24 PM, John Suburbs said:

Agreed, let's forget about chaos. Let's ask ourselves, since Littlefinger has shown how easily he can manipulate Joffrey (and I think there are many more examples of this that have yet to be revealed), then why would he want him dead? Who better to produce strife both within House Lannister and between Lannister and Tyrell?

And according to book LF, he didn't kill Joff because he was uncontrollable and would somehow interfere with the plan. In fact, he had no reason to kill him at all. If just anybody's death would have worked, then why choose the single most watched person in the room, and why do it in a way that intentionally puts Margaery at such extreme risk?

 

This is up to interpretation, but I see the killing of Joff as really being pushed by the Tyrells. Had deal-breaker written all over it. Joff abuses Marg inevitably + the protective KG Loras who's very impulsive = that's really not going to go well. Loras being a hot tamale was a big thing. 

Marg has some control over Joff, but why risk it all when Tommen's right there, young, malleable, impressionable and infinitely more pleasant? A perfect fit for Marg's benevolent queen gig? That's the deal I'd make if I was an ambitious Tyrell ok with killing my way to the top. 

Edited by Lollygag

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On 2/16/2019 at 7:05 PM, Lollygag said:

 

This is up to interpretation, but I see the killing of Joff as really being pushed by the Tyrells. Had deal-breaker written all over it. Joff abuses Marg inevitably + the protective KG Loras who's very impulsive = that's really not going to go well. Loras being a hot tamale was a big thing. 

Marg has some control over Joff, but why risk it all when Tommen's right there, young, malleable, impressionable and infinitely more pleasant? A perfect fit for Marg's benevolent queen gig? That's the deal I'd make if I was an ambitious Tyrell ok with killing my way to the top. 

Sorry, but Joff is the culmination of the Tyrell's nearly two-decade plan to place one of their own on the Iron Throne. First, there is no indication that any Tyrell thinks Joff will hurt Margaery, nor is the any indication that Joff is displeased with Margaery in any way -- in fact, his actions at the wedding show the exact opposite, and she is probably the only person on the planet he does not despise -- nor is there any plausible reason why he should be hostile towards her.

This whole idea stems from the fact that Joff had Sansa beaten, so therefore he will do the same to Margaery. But Sansa was beaten for specific reasons that apply to Sansa and Sansa alone: she routinely questions him and tells him what he can and cannot do, she was witness to his shame on the Trident, her house is in open rebellion to the crown and she is utterly alone in the capital -- no guards, no family, nothing. None of this applies to Margaery, nor does Joffrey pull random ladies out of the court to beat them. So the idea that Joff will beat Margaery just because he beat Sansa is as false as the idea that he will execute Mace because he executed Ned. Different people, different circumstances, different results.

Secondly, even if Joff does someday pose a threat to Margaery, that is certainly no reason to kill him now, in front of 1000 people, at a time when practically the entire Tyrell family is subject to arrest, imprisonment and torture. The smart thing to do -- and I hope you agree that Lady Olenna is nothing if not smart -- is wait and see if Joffrey becomes a problem and if so, get rid of him quietly and in private and made to look like an accident. By then, of course, Margy will have produced an heir or two and then she will rule the kingdom as regent until her son comes of age. And even then, if such a thing were to become necessary, it won't be because Margy got a few black eyes and a bloody lip -- plenty of queens, including Cersei and Rhaella, suffered far worse for their crowns -- but because Joffrey poses a political problem for the Tyrell Game of Thrones.

So, again, sorry, but there is absolutely no reason in the world why the Tyrells would want Joff dead this early. All they managed to do is instead of having Queen Margaery right away, they have to put up with five more years of Queen Cersei, and hope against hope that their political/military alliance with the Lannisters, will last the duration -- because if the alliance falls apart, so will the betrothal to Tommen.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, but Joff is the culmination of the Tyrell's nearly two-decade plan to place one of their own on the Iron Throne. First, there is no indication that any Tyrell thinks Joff will hurt Margaery, nor is the any indication that Joff is displeased with Margaery in any way -- in fact, his actions at the wedding show the exact opposite, and she is probably the only person on the planet he does not despise -- nor is there any plausible reason why he should be hostile towards her.

This whole idea stems from the fact that Joff had Sansa beaten, so therefore he will do the same to Margaery. But Sansa was beaten for specific reasons that apply to Sansa and Sansa alone: she routinely questions him and tells him what he can and cannot do, she was witness to his shame on the Trident, her house is in open rebellion to the crown and she is utterly alone in the capital -- no guards, no family, nothing. None of this applies to Margaery, nor does Joffrey pull random ladies out of the court to beat them. So the idea that Joff will beat Margaery just because he beat Sansa is as false as the idea that he will execute Mace because he executed Ned. Different people, different circumstances, different results.

Secondly, even if Joff does someday pose a threat to Margaery, that is certainly no reason to kill him now, in front of 1000 people, at a time when practically the entire Tyrell family is subject to arrest, imprisonment and torture. The smart thing to do -- and I hope you agree that Lady Olenna is nothing if not smart -- is wait and see if Joffrey becomes a problem and if so, get rid of him quietly and in private and made to look like an accident. By then, of course, Margy will have produced an heir or two and then she will rule the kingdom as regent until her son comes of age. And even then, if such a thing were to become necessary, it won't be because Margy got a few black eyes and a bloody lip -- plenty of queens, including Cersei and Rhaella, suffered far worse for their crowns -- but because Joffrey poses a political problem for the Tyrell Game of Thrones.

So, again, sorry, but there is absolutely no reason in the world why the Tyrells would want Joff dead this early. All they managed to do is instead of having Queen Margaery right away, they have to put up with five more years of Queen Cersei, and hope against hope that their political/military alliance with the Lannisters, will last the duration -- because if the alliance falls apart, so will the betrothal to Tommen.

We've had this discussion before and we just don't see Joff the same way at all. :dunno:

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On 2/18/2019 at 2:37 PM, Lollygag said:

We've had this discussion before and we just don't see Joff the same way at all. :dunno:

Yeah, I know. But come on, facts are facts.

Fact 1: at no time do any of the Tyrells express even the slightest concern about Joffrey.

Fact 2: at no time does Joffrey express even the slightest hostility toward Margaery. In fact, it's the exact opposite.

Fact 3: there is no plausible reason why Joffrey should want to harm Margaery.

Fact 4: Margaery would have been Queen the very next day and Cersei would have been shipped off to her next husband in a fortnight.

Fact 5: waiting to kill Joffrey after Margaery has produced an heir or two is far more beneficial to House Tyrell than killing him now, and could be done with far less risk and when nearly every Tyrell is safe and sound in their own castles.

Fact 6: Lady Olenna is not an idiot. She is a smart, cagey, experienced player of the Game of Thrones.

So why continue to support a theory that not only flies in the face of all the known facts but also requires that very smart people, namely Lady O and Littlefinger, are making the most abjectly stupid decisions over and over again, both in the lead-up to the poisoning and afterwards? For a theory to be viable, don't you think that at some point, somewhere there should be actual facts and actual text to support it?

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13 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Fact 1: at no time do any of the Tyrells express even the slightest concern about Joffrey.

Except for their conversation with Sansa, which is nothing but concern about Joffrey.  None of the Tyrells is a POV so we don't have access to their private conversations.  Given Sansa's terrified reaction to even discussing the subject, they would have been unlikely to discuss it where others (such as POVs) could hear.

13 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Fact 2: at no time does Joffrey express even the slightest hostility toward Margaery. In fact, it's the exact opposite.

At no time did Joffrey express even the slightest hostility toward Sansa.  (except once, briefly, after Arya attacked him).  He was consistently soliticitous and nice to her.  Look where that got her.

13 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Fact 3: there is no plausible reason why Joffrey should want to harm Margaery.

Given that he gives every indication of being a psychopathic monster, he doesn't need a plausible reason.  The Tyrells can see this.

On ‎2‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 11:20 AM, John Suburbs said:

So the idea that Joff will beat Margaery just because he beat Sansa is as false as the idea that he will execute Mace because he executed Ned. Different people, different circumstances, different results.

The suggestion that he would beat Margaery as he did Sansa because they were both romantic partners is a perfectly reasonable one.  One I am sure they would be familiar with.  

Ned was executed because he attempted to remove Joffrey and replace him with Stannis.  If Mace were to attempt something similar, I would expect a similar fate.

On ‎2‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 11:20 AM, John Suburbs said:

So, again, sorry, but there is absolutely no reason in the world why the Tyrells would want Joff dead this early. All they managed to do is instead of having Queen Margaery right away, they have to put up with five more years of Queen Cersei, and hope against hope that their political/military alliance with the Lannisters, will last the duration -- because if the alliance falls apart, so will the betrothal to Tommen.

They would have had to put up with five years of King Joffrey instead, who Queen Cersei appears unable or unwilling to curb the excesses of.  Joffrey shows signs of becoming another Aerys (Tyrion suggests as much to Tywin, in private).  And whether or not the Tyrells supported Aerys, they saw what happened to him and his family, and it wasn't pretty.  I doubt they would want a similar fate.  

Accept Cersei, and realize that they have a marriage not a betrothal.  While it is possible to dissolve an unconsummated marriage, it is a whole lot harder to dissolve than a betrothal, which is probably why they insisted on it.  And Tommen is a whole lot easier to work with.

Edited by Nevets

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