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Which minor houses do you want to see more of?

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9 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Lannisters and Lynesse are the only characters described as having spun-gold hair. Her name sounds like Lioness. She met Jorah at a tourney at Lannisport. She has that wife/whore thing that's so common with Lannisters. Jorah couldn't keep her happy financially. There's the Lannister greed for power as she has managed to gain a lot of power for herself as a whore combined with the Lannister disregard for tradition and protocol. 

It would fit like an old school if Lynesse's mother was a Lannisport Lannister. 

That's more of Tywin's and Cersei's traits, not general Lannister ones. 

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Just now, Dofs said:

That's more of Tywin's and Cersei's traits, not general Lannister ones. 

Greed and power: the Lannisters literally live in a gold mine. Crap writing to connect a family to the largest source of gold in that world and not link them to greed and power as that connection's impossible not to make. Their money and power is part of the family history going back to their origin.

It doesn't make sense and would be bad writing to give every single character of a family the exact same checklist of traits. It's not realistic. Gotta take a broad view of these sort of things and the broad view of the family links them to this.

And not just Tywin and Cersei. Tyrion relished his position as Hand in a very dark way and in ADWD, we see Tyrion begin to take a much darker view of power. Then there was Joff who was in a category by himself. Tygett and Gerion competed with Tywin but couldn't win. Genna's the one who wears the pants in her family. Lancel gains power via his alignment with the HS. Wouldn't be surprised at all if we see Tyrek reappear in the same vein as he was very upset with his powerlessness in his marriage to a baby.

Disregard for tradition and protocol is even more pervasive in some form. 

Lynesse fits right in.

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I would like to see more content with all houses period. But if I had to name a few: Manerly, Blackwood, Bracken, Umber, Karstark, Lefford, Velayron, Royce, Dayne, Rowan, Selmy, Dondarrion, and more.

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31 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Greed and power: the Lannisters literally live in a gold mine. Crap writing to connect a family to the largest source of gold in that world and not link them to greed and power as that connection's impossible not to make. Their money and power is part of the family history going back to their origin.

Crap writing is only your opinion. WoIaF says that historically Lannisters are known for their generosity. In fact at some point too much generosity almost ruined Lannisters and Tywin was a response to that. Living in a gold mine doesn't automatically imply greed for power. In fact, we have Tytos, who was generous to a fault and not ambitious whatsoever, Jaime doesn't want Casterly Rock, Daven doesn't want to be Warden of the West, Genna doesn't want Riverrun, Lancel doesn't want Darry, Kevan has no ambitions as well, etc. Greed for power is not a common Lannister trait at all.

31 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

It doesn't make sense and would be bad writing to give every single character of a family the exact same checklist of traits. It's not realistic. Gotta take a broad view of these sort of things and the broad view of the family links them to this.

Wait, aren't you doing just that?

31 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

And not just Tywin and Cersei. Tyrion relished his position as Hand in a very dark way and in ADWD, we see Tyrion begin to take a much darker view of power. Then there was Joff who was in a category by himself. Tygett and Gerion competed with Tywin but couldn't win. Genna's the one who wears the pants in her family. Lancel gains power via his alignment with the HS. Wouldn't be surprised at all if we see Tyrek reappear in the same vein as he was very upset with his powerlessness in his marriage to a baby.

Tyrion liked to rule, true. There is definitely ambition in him. Not sure what 'dark way' you are talking about though.

Joff was raised as a Baratheon, he worshipped Robert.

Tygett and Gerion did not compete with Tywin.

Not sure what's your point about Genna.

You are stretching hard with Lancel.

It's really just Tywin and Cersei. You can count Tyrion as well, but his case is much more healthy than that of the former two who wouldn't stop at anything in their greed for power. Cersei is probably the worst case, Tywin at least understood the merits and advantages of sharing power with your allies.

Edited by Dofs

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1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Crap writing is only your opinion. WoIaF says that historically Lannisters are known for their generosity. In fact at some point too much generosity almost ruined Lannisters and Tywin was a response to that. Living in a gold mine doesn't automatically imply greed for power. In fact, we have Tytos, who was generous to a fault and not ambitious whatsoever, Jaime doesn't want Casterly Rock, Daven doesn't want to be Warden of the West, Genna doesn't want Riverrun, Lancel doesn't want Darry, Kevan has no ambitions as well, etc. Greed for power is not a common Lannister trait at all. 

Wait, aren't you doing just that? 

Tyrion liked to rule, true. There is definitely ambition in him. Not sure what 'dark way' you are talking about though.

Joff was raised as a Baratheon, he worshipped Robert.

Tygett and Gerion did not compete with Tywin.

Not sure what's your point about Genna.

You are stretching hard with Lancel.

It's really just Tywin and Cersei. You can count Tyrion as well, but his case is much more healthy than that of the former two who wouldn't stop at anything in their greed for power. Cersei is probably the worst case, Tywin at least understood the merits and advantages of sharing power with your allies.

Bolded 1: The bulk of the readers aren't reading TWOIAF, D&E, F&B, and nor are they spending time in forums like these, so you get on shaky ground on anything when your info relies too much on these sources over the books proper. And dig into the gold/greed and sometimes cave thing a bit more (LOTR, myths in general, dragons hoard gold in caves...). It's all over the place and not just in ASOIAF. No one needed it to be explained when U2 wrote in New Year's Day 

And so we are told this is the golden age
And gold is the reason for the wars we wage

 

Bolded 2: No. I said I was addressing a pattern where we see the Lannisters - overall - being linked to power and greed/ambition. I know very well that each generation seems to have a glaring exception in Tytos, Kevan, Jaime and Tommen, because as I said, it doesn't make sense to write everyone with the same checklist of traits. 

 

Bolded 3: My view of power is much less rigid and the books give a very nuanced view overall.  As I showed by using the example of Lynesse. 

My point was Lynesse has power, as in autonomy. Lynesse doesn't have power in the Westeros way and she wouldn't achieve that sort of power in that way. The Sailor's Wife operates in much the same way and she has a daughter named Lanna. Power isn't just the rigid view castles and politics and we aren't supposed to view it this way either in this series as it shows various form of power beyond that of the Lord and his castle. It's not just wanting to rule the world. Take a closer look at those examples of yours and ask yourself if they're really smart moves for power and ask what kind of power the character really wants. If you don't see the difference between the Lannisters and the other families in this regard, I don't know what to tell ya. 

 

But go ahead and keep on holding up the broad view of the Lannisters as a great example of weakness and generosity outside of Tywin and Cersei and overlooking the whole gold/cave/power thing.

If you want to discuss it further, start a new topic and tag me. This is getting waaay off. To my original point, I think we saw a Lannisport Lannister through Lynesse (Lioness of the gold-spun hair) on her mother's side. 

Edited by Lollygag

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18 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Bolded 1: The bulk of the readers aren't reading TWOIAF, D&E, F&B, and nor are they spending time in forums like these, so you get on shaky ground on anything when your info relies too much on these sources over the books proper. And dig into the gold/greed and sometimes cave thing a bit more (LOTR, myths in general, dragons hoard gold in caves...). It's all over the place and not just in ASOIAF. No one needed it to be explained when U2 wrote in New Year's Day 

And so we are told this is the golden age
And gold is the reason for the wars we wage

 

Bolded 2: No. I said I was addressing a pattern where we see the Lannisters - overall - being linked to power and greed/ambition. I know very well that each generation seems to have a glaring exception in Tytos, Kevan, Jaime and Tommen, because as I said, it doesn't make sense to write everyone with the same checklist of traits. 

 

Bolded 3: My view of power is much less rigid and the books give a very nuanced view overall.  As I showed by using the example of Lynesse. 

My point was Lynesse has power, as in autonomy. Lynesse doesn't have power in the Westeros way and she wouldn't achieve that sort of power in that way. The Sailor's Wife operates in much the same way and she has a daughter named Lanna. Power isn't just the rigid view castles and politics and we aren't supposed to view it this way either in this series as it shows various form of power beyond that of the Lord and his castle. It's not just wanting to rule the world. Take a closer look at those examples of yours and ask yourself if they're really smart moves for power and ask what kind of power the character really wants. If you don't see the difference between the Lannisters and the other families in this regard, I don't know what to tell ya. 

 

But go ahead and keep on holding up the broad view of the Lannisters as a great example of weakness and generosity outside of Tywin and Cersei and overlooking the whole gold/cave/power thing.

If you want to discuss it further, start a new topic and tag me. This is getting waaay off. To my original point, I think we saw a Lannisport Lannister through Lynesse (Lioness of the gold-spun hair) on her mother's side. 

So you just decided to ignore the material Martin himself has written about the universe he has created in favor of your own headcanon, that is based not even on the books but on the fantasy tropes met in other series. That's ... an interesting take, I might say. 

Edited by Dofs

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3 minutes ago, Dofs said:

So you just decided to ignore the material Martin himself has written about the universe he has created in favor of your own headcanon, that is based not even on the books but on the fantasy tropes met in other series. That's ... an interesting take, I might say. 

So you just decided to ignore my previous posts where I stated that I'm well aware of the exceptions why they need to be there. 

I disagree that the Lannisters are going to be described overall as kind and generous by the Westerosi in ASOIAF, or by a vast majority of the readers. Hence why I treat this as one hint about Lynesse. I'm not going to recount to you all of the times that Starks, Baratheons, Tullys, Tyrells, Martells, etc, go on about how they hate them for exactly the qualities I mentioned. 

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1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

So you just decided to ignore my previous posts where I stated that I'm well aware of the exceptions why they need to be there. 

I disagree that the Lannisters are going to be described overall as kind and generous by the Westerosi in ASOIAF, or by a vast majority of the readers. Hence why I treat this as one hint about Lynesse. I'm not going to recount to you all of the times that Starks, Baratheons, Tullys, Tyrells, Martells, etc, go on about how they hate them for exactly the qualities I mentioned. 

A lord is a face of his House, he decides what the House does and directs its path. The rulers of House Lannister during the series are Tywin and Cersei and enmity from Starks, Baratheons and others towards Lannisters is influenced by those two, plus Jaime who is not really correctly judged by others. But as George gave us a peek into Jaime's mind, as he showed us more of Kevan, Lancel, as he revealed to us more Lannisters with the examples of Daven and Genna, as he showed us more Lannister history and examples of historical Lannisters, it becomes apparent that Tywin and Cersei are not representatives of your average Lannister at all. House Lannister is another example of  George turning a reader's expectations upside down like he so likes to do.

What you call "exceptions" of non greedy Lannisters vastly outnumber greedy Lannisters from the list of the members that we have. The World book that Martin himself wrote shows that Lannisters historically (not Tywin and Cersei) are known to be generous. I don't really care if you don't want to take the world book into account, that's what Martin told and I am taking his word. I absolutely disagree that materials like TWOIAF, D&E, F&B can be ignored, so if you want to ignore them, then that's where our conversation ends. Like you've said yourself, it's offtopic here anyway.

Edited by Dofs

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Just now, Dofs said:

A lord is a face of his House, he decides what the House does and directs its path. The rulers of House Lannister during the series are Tywin and Cersei and enmity from Starks, Baratheons and others towards Lannisters is influenced by those two, plus Jaime who is not really correctly judged by others. But as George gave us a peek into Jaime's mind, as he showed us more of Kevan, Lancel, as he revealed to us more Lannisters with the examples of Daven and Genna, as he showed us more Lannister history and examples of historical Lannisters, it becomes apparent that Tywin and Cersei are not representatives of your average Lannister at all. House Lannister is another example of  George turning a reader's expectations upside down like he so likes to do.

What you call "exceptions" of non greedy Lannisters vastly outnumber greedy Lannisters from the list of the members that we have. The World book that Martin himself wrote shows that Lannisters historically (not Tywin and Cersei) are known to be generous. I don't really care if you don't want to take the world book into account, that's what Martin told and I am taking his word. I absolutely disagree that materials like TWOIAF, D&E, F&B can be ignored, so if you want to ignore them, then that's where our conversation ends. Like you've said yourself, it's offtopic here anyway.

If you don't like the stereotype and reputation that the Lannisters as a whole have all through the world of Westeros and in the fandom, take it up with GRRM, not me. I didn't write the books. It's there whether you like it or not and it's all over the place as we see from the Starks, Tullys, Baratheons, Tyrells, Martells...probably easier to list who actually thinks well of them. Start a different thread if you think they were given a raw deal. 

I'm done. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

take it up with GRRM, not me

Right back at you with what he wrote for WoIaF.

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Clarifying in regards to TWOIAF...

TWOIAF, D&E, F&B are optional reading, meaning ASOIAF isn't being written with the expectation or requirement that these be read. And a vast majority of readers are casual readers and won't read the more obscure info or spend waayyy too much time :ph34r: on fan forums. So to base too much info on this content when it doesn't have a place in ASOIAF is going to make the readers confused unless it's reintroduced later into ASOIAF proper via TWOW or ADOS. 

http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2018/04/25/fire-blood-on-the-way/

Red changes mine. 

Quote

I do want to stress… indeed, I want to shout… that FIRE & BLOOD is not a novel.   This is not a traditional narrative and was never intended to be.  Some of my fans have objected to the term “fake history” that I’ve bandied about in past blog posts and announcements in reference to “The Princess and the Queen” and “Sons of the Dragon” and the like.   Very well; let’s call this one “imaginary history” instead.   The essential point being the “history” part.   I love reading popular histories myself, and that’s what I was aiming for here.   Not historical fiction, not fantasy, no… but something more akin to Thomas B. Costain’s monumental (and wonderfully entertaining) four-volume history of the Plantagenets.   (But with dragons.  Did I mention the dragons?)

So: not a novel.   Everyone clear on that?   (Though there are enough stories here for twenty novels.  Battles, bloodshed, betrayals, love, lust, horror, religious wars, politics, incest, historical revisionism, all the fun stuff).

Oh, and I should also say… as most of you know, HBO is presently developing a number of different prequels to GAME OF THRONES.   I know I am going to be asked whether those shows are going to be based on material from FIRE & BLOOD.   It’s a logical question.   The only answer I can give is… ah, well, no one is sure yet, and anyway, I am not allowed to say.   So let’s move that to the side.

The important thing is: NOVEMBER 20.   Mark it down on your calendars.   (If you enjoy imaginary history).

 

Edited by Lollygag

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North: Dustin, they seem to be one of the more influential houses that we haven't seen as much as similarly powerful houses in the North.

Riverlands: Mallisters, one of the more loyal houses in the Riverlands. Just so I can see how they will deal with the chaotic wasteland that the Riverlands are now.

Vale: Royce,  especially the main branch with Bronze Yohn.

Westerlands: Marbrand, especially just Addam Marbrand.

Iron Islands: Harlaw, a house more similar to the greenland houses and they have a Valyrian steel sword. 

Reach: Besides Hightower, which I already mentioned, I would love to see more of house Rowan. Mathis Rowan is already interesting, wish we would see more of them.

Dorne: Dayne, so many interesting figures throughout history and during the current storyline as well.

Crownlands/Stormlands: Can't think of any house that is really interesting and that needs more flashing out imo.

 

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Farwynd:  Shapeshifters who bond with sea lions, walruses, and spotted whales.  It would be awesome to read about shapeshifters occupying the minds of aquatic mammals!  Their seat is an eight day sail West from Great Wyk and during the kingsmoot Gylbert Farwynd has reason to believe that there is an unexplored continent beyond the sunset sea.  Have some Farwynds already been there?

Dayne:  Who doesn’t want to know more about the pale sword Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star and how the family decides who is worthy of the title Sword of the Morning?

Reed:  A very mysterious house.  Greywater Watch (Howland's Moving Castle :D) cannot be found by outsiders and may actually move.  I'd like to know more about the Crannogmen and lizard lions.  I'd also like to read about them fighting more conventional warriors with their poison-tipped arrows, woven nets and three-pronged frog spears.

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I want to see some positive representation of the Brackens, conversely negative representation of the Blackwoods.  How for a series famed for the greyness of its conflicts the Blackwood/Bracken conflict seems pretty black and white.  Where almost every Bracken is a complete dick and the Blackwoods are portrayed more nobly. 

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On 2/13/2019 at 5:00 PM, The hairy bear said:

For me it's mostly the Dornish houses, specially the ones from the Marches: Dayne, Yronwood, Fowler, Wyl, Manwoody, Blackmont,...

Who doesn't want to learn more about the man with the best name in the series, Dickon Manwoody?!?

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Don't know if these count but I've greatly enjoyed what little we have seen of the Northern Mountain Clansmen(primarily in Stannis' Army), and would like to see more of them.

On the other end of the Continent, The yronwoods, how much do they know of and support Doran's scheming, Is there any type of cultural divide between them and the more Rohyonish influenced houses in the Eastern part of Dorne, if Quentyn was some kind of quasi hostage why did they allow him to leave?

Edited by Back door hodor

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