About Viserra’s Bethoral

[Mrs.Grumpy]

So I understand Alysanne was (for some reason) trying to prevent Viserra (her own daughter) from marrying to her widower son Baelon (who as Viserra pointed out, already married a sister). I mean he may wanted to remain single after his wife’s death but he is a prince and boys (like girls) are expected to marry and re-marry.

and I don’t understand why it was such a big deal. Aemon was alive (I think?) when Viserra was trying to marry Baelon, it is not like she was going to usurp his throne??

Let’s say Alysanne is right to prevent her from being Queen but why on earth she chose a man older than her father, who married 4 fooking times????? I mean the bitch can find Lords Grafton and Peake for the so called teatless and chinless Celtigar sisters but she can’t find a better man for her own daughter (the most beautiful one). Granted, we don’t know about those men but it is said they were exceptional matches for the Celtigars so it can’t be that bad. Yeah it was a lord of House Manderly, she was going to be Lady of White Harbor but fuck that. She blames Jaehaerys for Daella’s death but she is responsible for Viserra’s death in a way but hey no one is blaming her... 

I still love Alysanne but Viserra issue is bugging me.

 

(Not to mention Viserra’s personality doesn’t seem aligned with how she died. Is she sly or hot-headed? When we first heard about her in the world book I thought she was a tomboy but in here she is a creepy femme fatale wanna be.)

[Lord Varys]

46 minutes ago, Mrs.Grumpy said:

So I understand Alysanne was (for some reason) trying to prevent Viserra (her own daughter) from marrying to her widower son Baelon (who as Viserra pointed out, already married a sister). I mean he may wanted to remain single after his wife’s death but he is a prince and boys (like girls) are expected to marry and re-marry.

The entire story doesn't make any sense. Either George completely dropped the ball here, and forgot that Baelon was not yet the heir to the throne when the Viserra incident happened (possible, but it is very unlikely nobody pointed the issue out the him during editing), or this is supposed to be an odd little story. From a narrative point of view Gyldayn would here base the entire account on silly court gossip. We have to keep the fact in mind that Viserra was the one of the youngest children of Alysanne and Jaehaerys, and Gyldayn earlier went to great lengths to tell us that contemporary sources usually focused much more on the older children than the younger children.

Which means very few people should have cared to write much about Viserra. Aside from the fact to stress and point out and refer to her inhumane beauty.

And that's were the entire femme fatale aspect enters into the story. Viserra's character is only described on the basis of and in relation to her beauty. All the anecdotes we got from her are based on that. Her exploits with the boys indicate she did little more than test how far she could push the fools who tried to get her attention and favors, there are no signs that she had any interest in either power nor ruining men. Her last stint in the city which led to her accidental death also doesn't have any calculating aspects to it. She is just a young girl who wants to spend a night in the city, basically. She doesn't even seem to be interested in sex.

Her interest in Baelon seems genuine enough to me, based on the fact that she apparently shared her feelings and desires with an empty-headed companion.

This leads me to the conclusion that Alysanne simply did not want Viserra to marry Baelon for some reason, and that the entire talk of her saying Viserra wanted to be queen by way of Baelon (which is something Alysanne would have likely *never said* at this time considering that Aemon was the heir, and Rhaenys, at least in Alysanne's opinion, Aemon's heir) is just nonsense somebody made up later when Baelon actually was the heir, and people were searching for a reason why Alysanne may have wanted to prevent a Baelon-Viserra marriage.

The reason I already put forth somewhere as to why Alysanne decided to marry Viserra to old Lord Manderly, a man easily fourth her age, is jealousy of her beauty. Viserra apparently was the most gorgeous Targaryen in known history, whereas Alysanne herself couldn't even be described as 'beautiful' according to Gyldayn (she was just 'pretty'). In a world so obsessed with female beauty and in a family so famous for their physical beauty, Alysanne wouldn't have had the most easiest of childhoods in this regard. If she and Viserra had problems getting along from childhood and with her age approaching it may have been tough for her to see Viserra growing into the beautiful woman that she was.

Even if that was complete nonsense on my part, there is still the fact that Alysanne may have started to see her daughter as a femme fatale simply because that's how everybody around her started to see her.

46 minutes ago, Mrs.Grumpy said:

and I don’t understand why it was such a big deal. Aemon was alive (I think?) when Viserra was trying to marry Baelon, it is not like she was going to usurp his throne??

If Alysanne actually bought that nonsense and said it once, she must have thought that Viserra actually wanted to marry Baelon and then find a way to remove/kill both Aemon and Rhaenys. Else Viserra could not really get close to the throne.

If she actually thought nonsense like that it is rather odd that she just wanted to marry her to Manderly. If she had good reason to believe stuff like that her daughter should have gotten a much harsher punishment.

46 minutes ago, Mrs.Grumpy said:

(Not to mention Viserra’s personality doesn’t seem aligned with how she died. Is she sly or hot-headed? When we first heard about her in the world book I thought she was a tomboy but in here she is a creepy femme fatale wanna be.)

Both the recounted Baelon episode as well as her last night in the city imply that she was no evil genius and had a certain tomboyish character about her despite her beauty. She clearly was pretty adventurous. Could be that this was also what draw her to Baelon.

[The Grey Wolf]

Viserra's whole story would make better sense if the New Gift had still been a big problem and if she'd instead been promised to Lord Manderly's heir.

[The Grey Wolf]

Honestly, it's a major disappointment that most of what we know about J and A's daughters revolves around their sex lives.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

Reasons I see for this betrothal:

• Solidify ties to the North. Good idea (especially if the New Gift had caused a rift between the North and the Crown) but why not marry her to a Stark or at least Manderly's grandson (the heir of his heir)?
• Alysanne had some secret information that Viserra planned to have Aemon and Rhaenys murdered after her wedding to Baelon to make him heir. No textual evidence and doesn't get along with her personality.
• Baelon made it clear that he didn't want to remarry and especially Viserra so Alysanne (who seems to be very close with her eldest children and Gael) tried to help him get rid of Viserra. When Jaehaerys proposed Alyssa as a potential bride for Aemon, Alysanne firmly refused claiming that she was meant for Baelon (probably seeing the closeness of these two). This seems she truly cared about the happiness of her children (or at least the eldest). She doesn't want just a good wedding for her children but also a happy wedding. Aemon - Jocelyn, Baelon - Alyssa, even Daella - Rodrik.
• The jealousy scenario about her daughter seems possible. Alysanne, having grown old by 86 and having never been a beautiful woman, was jealous of her daughters inhumane beauty. Especially she had managed to catch Jaehaerys's attention (not something sexual)

I believe scenario number 3 is the most possible, with 1 and 4 combined leading to the choice of the husband.

[Lord Varys]

It is not convincing that Baelon needed the help of his mother to not marry Viserra, nor to firmly put an end to her advances. He was a grown man who knew how to make himself clearly understood.

There was also no actual rift between the Starks and the Iron Throne. Yes, Lord Alaric's sons apparently opposed the New Gift, but neither of them ever succeeded to Winterfell, so we have no reason to believe that Lord Edric (or whoever was Lord of Winterfell in the 80s) did care much about this thing anymore.

Alysanne's obvious interest in making her children happy clashes very hard with her apparent decision to marry her most beautiful and second youngest daughter to a man who could be her great-grandfather. No idea how to reconcile these two things without assuming that Alysanne really had severe issues with Viserra, personally, hence the jealousy idea.

In the wake of the recent loss of Saera it is very odd that Alysanne would force another daughter away in such a cruel manner. Chances would have been astronomically high that the mother could expect as much understanding or love or affection from Viserra as Alysanne got from Saera after she fled...

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is not convincing that Baelon needed the help of his mother to not marry Viserra, nor to firmly put an end to her advances. He was a grown man who knew how to make himself clearly understood.

There was also no actual rift between the Starks and the Iron Throne. Yes, Lord Alaric's sons apparently opposed the New Gift, but neither of them ever succeeded to Winterfell, so we have no reason to believe that Lord Edric (or whoever was Lord of Winterfell in the 80s) did care much about this thing anymore.

Alysanne's obvious interest in making her children happy clashes very hard with her apparent decision to marry her most beautiful and second youngest daughter to a man who could be her great-grandfather. No idea how to reconcile these two things without assuming that Alysanne really had severe issues with Viserra, personally, hence the jealousy idea.

In the wake of the recent loss of Saera it is very odd that Alysanne would force another daughter away in such a cruel manner. Chances would have been astronomically high that the mother could expect as much understanding or love or affection from Viserra as Alysanne got from Saera after she fled...

It was kinda disappointing that there wasn't actually a rift between the Starks and the IT over the New Gift. Early on it did look like Alysanne cared about making her older children happy with marriage choices, not so much with her younger children. 

[The Grey Wolf]

The Long Reign is by far the most problematic chapter in F & B and part of that is because GRRM covers 40+ years in less than 75 pages.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

It was kinda disappointing that there wasn't actually a rift between the Starks and the IT over the New Gift. Early on it did look like Alysanne cared about making her older children happy with marriage choices, not so much with her younger children. 

I personally never liked the idea that the Starks somehow foresaw the continuous decline of the NW. If this were the case, then why didn't they do more to stop it right then and there?

Some minor lords not wanting to part with their lands, on the other hand, is not exactly going to trouble the Iron Throne much. Which is also a problem in the old scenario - Gyldayn makes it clear that Lord Alaric did not personally own the lands making up the New Gift, so if he had opposed the king on the matter, Jaehaerys and Alysanne could have just paid said minor lords a visit with their dragons, and they would have immediately complied.

The tragedy of Daella really makes it very odd what Alysanne planned for Viserra (and in a lesser way also the tragedy of Alyssa).

It is also pretty odd that they did not actually try to hook up Saera and Viserra with Corlys Velaryon, other Velaryons, or Baratheons, if you think about it. They were among the younger daughters, sure, but with Aemon not delivering much in the progeny territory, and Daella and Alyssa dying rather early, Saera and Viserra were actually rather crucial heirs of the king in the 80s - much more important than sickly Maester Vaegon and devoted Septa Maegelle. If Aemon, Baelon, their descendants were out of the way, and Maegelle and Vaegon neutralized by their vows, the sons of Saera and Viserra may have had as strong - or even stronger - claims to the Iron Throne as Aemma Arryn (not to mention the mothers themselves).

In that sense, the way these princesses were treated is somewhat weird.

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I personally never liked the idea that the Starks somehow foresaw the continuous decline of the NW. If this were the case, then why didn't they do more to stop it right then and there?

Some minor lords not wanting to part with their lands, on the other hand, is not exactly going to trouble the Iron Throne much. Which is also a problem in the old scenario - Gyldayn makes it clear that Lord Alaric did not personally own the lands making up the New Gift, so if he had opposed the king on the matter, Jaehaerys and Alysanne could have just paid said minor lords a visit with their dragons, and they would have immediately complied.

The tragedy of Daella really makes it very odd what Alysanne planned for Viserra (and in a lesser way also the tragedy of Alyssa).

It is also pretty odd that they did not actually try to hook up Saera and Viserra with Corlys Velaryon, other Velaryons, or Baratheons, if you think about it. They were among the younger daughters, sure, but with Aemon not delivering much in the progeny territory, and Daella and Alyssa dying rather early, Saera and Viserra were actually rather crucial heirs of the king in the 80s - much more important than sickly Maester Vaegon and devoted Septa Maegelle. If Aemon, Baelon, their descendants were out of the way, and Maegelle and Vaegon neutralized by their vows, the sons of Saera and Viserra may have had as strong - or even stronger - claims to the Iron Throne as Aemma Arryn (not to mention the mothers themselves).

In that sense, the way these princesses were treated is somewhat weird.

The Starks would have a idea that the NW was on a decline tho. Winterfell has always had close ties to the NW. Starks aren't really in a position to stop the decline of NW too. Men and money aren't really things the Starks can provide the NW continuously. Marrying off Viserra in it self isn't a weird thing, marrying her off Lord Manderly was. Alysanne wasn't going to stop marrying her daughters off because of what happened to Daella or Alyssa. That's just would they do in their society. I do wonder what Jaehaerys and Alysanne had in mind for Saera after her punishment was up in Oldtown.

[Destiny Arrives]

So is true it kinda bugged me as well 3 things with the good queen annoyed me.

This instant other than she wanted a good alliance with the north makes sense but its not like her children with him would be air to white harbour.

Upset because Big J didn;t want Daenerys to be heir (i just don't get why she thought that would happen after how her owner elder sister was past over)

Blaming everyone for Daenys death no reason at all but a mother's grief i guess