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NBA 2019 - Now the Joy in My World is in Zion


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On 3/18/2019 at 11:04 PM, SkynJay said:

What other teams, in any sport, has survived the retirement of their cornerstone and not slowed down at all?  I realize they don't have a championship without Duncan.  But they continue to compete hard even after losing their second generation star in Kawhi.

Closest I can think of is Niners of my childhood replacing one HOF QB with another. 

I think the Packers are another nominee. And it will be interesting to see what happens with the post-Brady Patriots, but we’ll need to wait another 75 years for that to happen.  

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On another note, it’s crazy to think that as this season is about to end, two of the all-time greats will be retiring. I don’t think it’s that hard to argue that both Wade and Dirk are the third best ever at their respective positions.

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33 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

On another note, it’s crazy to think that as this season is about to end, two of the all-time greats will be retiring. I don’t think it’s that hard to argue that both Wade and Dirk are the third best ever at their respective positions.

So I assume you're saying:

Jordan, Kobe, Wade

Duncan, Malone, Dirk

Is that right? Agree they're right around #3. The only other contenders I can think of are Jerry West and Kevin Garnett. With West it's so difficult to compare such different eras.

Whereas KG vs. Dirk is far simpler. Which player's skillset is it easier to win a title with? A dominant scorer/shooter, floor spacing big man or a worse scorer but better overall player who is a dominant defender. I mean in this era Nowitzki is more valuable because Garnett is not a floor spacer. But in the era they were in their primes, give me KG. Think Garnett has a skillset that fits more seamlessly with other stars. He doesn't need to ball to dominate, he loves doing the dirty work and he captains a defense. It's a close call but I lean KG. 

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15 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

So I assume you're saying:

Jordan, Kobe, Wade

Duncan, Malone, Dirk

Is that right? Agree they're right around #3. The only other contenders I can think of are Jerry West and Kevin Garnett. With West it's so difficult to compare such different eras.

Whereas KG vs. Dirk is far simpler. Which player's skillset is it easier to win a title with? A dominant scorer/shooter, floor spacing big man or a worse scorer but better overall player who is a dominant defender. I mean in this era Nowitzki is more valuable because Garnett is not a floor spacer. But in the era they were in their primes, give me KG. Think Garnett has a skillset that fits more seamlessly with other stars. He doesn't need to ball to dominate, he loves doing the dirty work and he captains a defense. It's a close call but I lean KG. 

First I just want to say that I have no idea how to rank West. Yes he’s a legend and the logo, but as you said, the eras are so different. Also, Wade, at his peak, was better than Kobe. But he also broke down a lot faster, so that’s why Kobe has to be above him.

Regarding the power forwards, I actually have KG at number two, but keep in mind he’s one of the two athletes that define my childhood sports obsession (the other one obviously being Moss). Malone is great, but he does not transcend his era. Duncan doesn’t really either, but there’s no way you can put anyone above him. Dirk and KG, OTOH, set the tone for their era and changed the following one as well. KG showed you how a big can play like today’s wing and Dirk showed that a big can be an outside sharpshooter. Both are more important to the game than Malone, and both are champions. Malone has to live with being fourth.

And one other thing. I think KG would have been a better shooter if he played today. He was money from the deep midrange. If he could do that while taking a step back he would be similar to Dirk from distance, and considering he was better at pretty much everything else than Dirk, KG is the clear second best of all time.  

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20 minutes ago, KingintheNorth4 said:

Jimmy G Fucking Buckets coming alive in crunch time. Joel Embiid put in a ton of work also. 

Kyrie missed at least three layups in the fourth, Jaylen Brown badly bricked two free throws near the end... Disappointing end of game execution by the Celtics. Looking like a first round exit for this underachieving and bizarrely unlikeable team.

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10 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Regarding the power forwards, I actually have KG at number two, but keep in mind he’s one of the two athletes that define my childhood sports obsession (the other one obviously being Moss). Malone is great, but he does not transcend his era.

Yeah I think KG is plainly above Dirk on the GOAT list.  Probably is even above Malone, who was a pretty dirty and cheapass player defensively.  It's Duncan and KG as 1A and 1B in my book when we're talking about the 4.  Not even worried about giving older players I'm too young to have seen short shrift.  Who?  McHale?  Please.

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3 hours ago, DMC said:

Yeah I think KG is plainly above Dirk on the GOAT list.  Probably is even above Malone, who was a pretty dirty and cheapass player defensively.  It's Duncan and KG as 1A and 1B in my book when we're talking about the 4.  Not even worried about giving older players I'm too young to have seen short shrift.  Who?  McHale?  Please.

Barkley? 

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36 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Barkley? 

Yeah, I loved Barkley.  He was incredibly skilled in almost all facets of the game and the consummate overachiever, which is kind of counterintuitive to his public persona.  But, c'mon.  Garnett is literally half a foot taller than him, and quicker, and pretty much just as skilled.

 

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18 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah, I loved Barkley.  He was incredibly skilled in almost all facets of the game and the consummate overachiever, which is kind of counterintuitive to his public persona.  But, c'mon.  Garnett is literally half a foot taller than him, and quicker, and pretty much just as skilled.

 

Not saying better, just should be in the conversation, he scored more and was a better rebounder, obviously not as good a defender though. If Barkley was KG size he'd have had 25 rebounds a night. 

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4 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Not saying better, just should be in the conversation

Agreed, he should be in the conversation.  I think him and Malone is a tossup.  Guess you could put Dirk in there too, but he gave you a lot less value defensively, at best.  Still, just maintaining I think Duncan and Garnett are the clear top two.

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9 hours ago, DMC said:

Yeah I think KG is plainly above Dirk on the GOAT list.  Probably is even above Malone, who was a pretty dirty and cheapass player defensively.  It's Duncan and KG as 1A and 1B in my book when we're talking about the 4.  Not even worried about giving older players I'm too young to have seen short shrift.  Who?  McHale?  Please.

Yeah that’s pretty much my take too. I think Duncan and KG are equal talents, but the titles and consistent success make Duncan the king, even if KG’s game would have been better in today’s format.

5 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Barkley? 

Barkley is a top 15 player of all time, but he doesn’t make my list when defining the top three players at each position.  Hell, Russell deserves to be in the top five all time conversation, but he doesn’t make the list either.

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2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Hell, Russell deserves to be in the top five all time conversation, but he doesn’t make the list either.

Russell was a 5, not a 4.  Now, it's interesting doing this with centers as well:  there's Shaq, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, and Hakeem.  I think all five deserve consideration.  Not sure how I'd jumble that out.

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28 minutes ago, DMC said:

Russell was a 5, not a 4.  Now, it's interesting doing this with centers as well:  there's Shaq, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, and Hakeem.  I think all five deserve consideration.  Not sure how I'd jumble that out.

In his day. He’d probably be a 4 now. But what I was getting at was top 5 all-time, which in my book is Jordan, LeBron, Magic, Kareem and then Bird and Wilt can fight to the death for the fifth spot.

As far as top thee 5’s goes, I’d pick Kareem, Wilt and Shaq. PG is the only position I’m uncertain about. Magic gets the top spot, and Curry probably belongs in the top three, but I don’t know who the other would be. Probably Oscar I guess.

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12 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

which in my book is Jordan, LeBron, Magic, Kareem and then Bird and Wilt can fight to the death for the fifth spot.

I'd put Wilt over Kareem.  Probably Bird too, but I'd also consider Robertson.

13 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

As far as top thee 5’s goes, I’d pick Kareem, Wilt and Shaq.

Yeah, I hate leaving out the other two, but probably me too.

14 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

PG is the only position I’m uncertain about. Magic gets the top spot, and Curry probably belongs in the top three, but I don’t know who the other would be. Probably Oscar I guess.

I wouldn't count Robertson as a 1, partly because I'm very snobby about 1s.  Magic is definitely at the top of the list.  After that we got Curry, Stockton, Kidd, Nash.  How I pick two out of those four depends on the day.

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8 minutes ago, DMC said:

I'd put Wilt over Kareem.  Probably Bird too, but I'd also consider Robertson.

I actually think you can make the argument that Wilt is better than anyone, but he gets dinged because an inferior player dominated him. That said, Wilt has arguably the single best record in American sports. People look to him averaging 50 points and 25 rebounds, but averaging 48.5 minutes per game for a season without missing a game is truly the nuttiest stat I’ve ever seen.

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Yeah, I hate leaving out the other two, but probably me too.

Shaq in my mind is the only one up for debate. He might be the most dominate player ever, but that window wasn’t that large.

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I wouldn't count Robertson as a 1, partly because I'm very snobby about 1s.  Magic is definitely at the top of the list.  After that we got Curry, Stockton, Kidd, Nash.  How I pick two out of those four depends on the day.

Not sure if I’ve heard that take before about Oscar, but then again I don’t know that much about pre-80’s basketball. I think Curry has to be in the top three because he’s a generational defining player, and 20 years from now he’ll be considered one of the five most important players to ever lace them up. After that it’s a crapshoot. I hadn’t considered Nash, but he does belong in the conversation. As does Stockton. I’m not sure Kidd does though. I’d put Chris Paul above him in a heartbeat.

                                                                                                        

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32 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

In his day. He’d probably be a 4 now.

Russell would 100% be a 5 now. KG and Duncan would be too. You don't need a hulking 7 footer who can bang in the post anymore. Infact it's an active detriment because he can't chase people off the 3 point line. Basically you want the most agile guy you can get away with as your 5 that can still offer some form of rebounding/rim protection. 

That said people who don't think Shaq would be as good in this era are nuts. He'd destroy worlds. He'd ruin the teams try to space him off the floor and force all the contenders to adapt to his style rather than vice versa. 

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16 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

but he gets dinged because an inferior player dominated him.

I don't that's fair, particularly because it's not accurate.  The Celtics dominated whatever team Wilt happened to be on.  Russell didn't "dominate" Wilt.

18 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Shaq in my mind is the only one up for debate. He might be the most dominate player ever, but that window wasn’t that large.

Meh, I think it was large enough.  He was dominate for about 10 seasons, and really really good for four others.

20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Not sure if I’ve heard that take before about Oscar, but then again I don’t know that much about pre-80’s basketball.

From what I've seen of him, which admittedly isn't a whole bunch and was in the long long ago when I went to basketball camps, I'd describe him as a point forward.

21 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I think Curry has to be in the top three because he’s a generational defining player, and 20 years from now he’ll be considered one of the five most important players to ever lace them up.

Meh, I don't feel this way about Curry.  I think it's a direction of causality thing - Curry didn't change the game, he capitalized on the way the game was changing.

22 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I’m not sure Kidd does though. I’d put Chris Paul above him in a heartbeat.

Chris Paul has disappointed me too much.  I was sure that guy was gonna be the GOAT at 1, or at least the clear number 2 after Magic, and he just keeps on letting me down.  It's personal and I don't like talking about it.

22 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

Russell would 100% be a 5 now. KG and Duncan would be too.

Yep.

23 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

That said people who don't think Shaq would be as good in this era are nuts.

Shaq, especially young Shaq, is fascinating to think about if put in this era.  Dude so clearly wanted to be a point guard.  His game, and thus physical trajectory, might be entirely different if he was coming up now.

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42 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

Russell would 100% be a 5 now. KG and Duncan would be too. You don't need a hulking 7 footer who can bang in the post anymore. Infact it's an active detriment because he can't chase people off the 3 point line. Basically you want the most agile guy you can get away with as your 5 that can still offer some form of rebounding/rim protection. 

Height isn’t the issue. Weight is. Russell was billed at 220, and that would be a problem today. If you gave him the benefit of modern nutrition and strengthen and conditioning then sure I’d agree. But if you didn’t, Shaq would have completely destroyed him.

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That said people who don't think Shaq would be as good in this era are nuts. He'd destroy worlds. He'd ruin the teams try to space him off the floor and force all the contenders to adapt to his style rather than vice versa. 

Magic era Shaq would be awesome, but I’m not sure about Lakers era Shaq when he was getting fat. The increased pace would run him off the floor, he’d be a spacing issue, and guys would just foul him all the time. 

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