NBA 2019 - Now the Joy in My World is in Zion

[briantw]

Shaq probably would have been one of the five greatest players ever if he weren't such a lazy POS.  Dude was unstoppable in his prime.

[DMC]

Shaq did get fat, but I do think part of that was in response to the way he was defended.  He endured more physical punishment than any basketball player I've ever seen, and adding that weight actually probably helped him stay as healthy as possible.  If Shaq emerged in this era, I'm not sure hack-a-shaq would be such a ubiquitous strategy, which then means he might not have developed such a wide girth.  I think it's silly to say Shaq was "lazy."  He wasn't, and isn't.  Didn't dude just officially become a cop?  Lazy insanely rich people don't do that.

[Jaime L]

3 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

Magic era Shaq would be awesome, but I’m not sure about Lakers era Shaq when he was getting fat. The increased pace would run him off the floor, he’d be a spacing issue, and guys would just foul him all the time. 

Back then every team had beefy 7 footers they used to bang with and foul Shaq constantly and he still was average 29/13/4 during his early Lakers years. And this was at a time where the league played 10% slower and averaged 95 ppg instead of 110. Extrapolate that to today's game and he's averaging 34/15s just as a baseline. 

Not to mention all those 7 footers have been driven to the bench in this pace and space era. Either you brush the mothballs of the Timofey Mosgovs of the world and are stuck playing an offensive blackhole at center or you try to pace-and-space Shaq off the floor and hope somehow the Clint Capelas/Draymond Greens can somehow slow him down. But really what happens is he either puts up a 45/17 on smaller dudes and with the added space all his teammates now provide him that they didn't in 2001 or he's opening up 3 pointers for all his teammates as you double and triple team him.

Sure you'll get more open 3's than ever as Shaq won't be able to run guys off the line but I feel very confident you're gonna lose the points trade off in the end. Shaq would break your 5 out concept before you break him. Sure he'll need more rest playing in this faster era but when he's on the floor it'll be like a HS junior playing against 7th graders. He's the most destructive post up guy I can ever recall watching. A slightly less dominant center and the math may break different. 

3 hours ago, DMC said:

Shaq, especially young Shaq, is fascinating to think about if put in this era.  Dude so clearly wanted to be a point guard.  His game, and thus physical trajectory, might be entirely different if he was coming up now.

Yeah he'd probably develop a perimeter game early on (possibly at the expense of his post skillset). That said I feel like his build was always destined to be a 300+ lber and he'd eventually find his way into the post.

I think Embiid is the closest analogue we have currently and I think he needs to realize the same thing (especially as a 29% 3 pt shooter). Dude looks like Shaq out there against all the smaller opponents he gets to face in today's game. But Shaq would of course dwarf even him if he was still playing. 

[DMC]

7 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

I think Embiid is the closest analogue we have currently and I think he needs to realize the same thing

I know he's a lot shorter, but really Zion is the closest thing we've seen to Shaq coming out of LSU, athletically.

I agree he was going to get fat eventually, but I think there would have been a significant difference in his body type during those prime years if he was playing today.

[Relic]

5 hours ago, briantw said:

Shaq probably would have been one of the five greatest players ever if he weren't such a lazy POS.  Dude was unstoppable in his prime.

lol, wow man. Do you like ANYONE in the NBA? Calling people who have done you no harm pieces of shit or whatever you like doing is something you probably should have grown out of in college, btw. 

[briantw]

56 minutes ago, Relic said:

lol, wow man. Do you like ANYONE in the NBA? Calling people who have done you no harm pieces of shit or whatever you like doing is something you probably should have grown out of in college, btw. 

I love Shaq.  He was my favorite non-Cav player growing up.  Still like him, not so much as a TNT guy but he's a former Cav.

But the dude showed up a lot of years a hundred pounds overweight and spent half the season working it off.  Are we not allowed to mention that when evaluating his standing all time?  Because it's kind of important.

And you seem to be taking the term POS far more seriously than I am using it.  Maybe you just need to remove the stick from your ass.  I don't hate any of these guys.

Except Durant.  He can get fucked.

[DMC]

3 hours ago, briantw said:

But the dude showed up a lot of years a hundred pounds overweight and spent half the season working it off.  Are we not allowed to mention that when evaluating his standing all time?  Because it's kind of important.

It would be, if this was even remotely true.  But it's not.

[briantw]

20 minutes ago, DMC said:

It would be, if this was even remotely true.  But it's not.

I mean, there are plenty of sources that say it was:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2005414-kobe-bryant-says-shaquille-oneals-laziness-drove-him-crazy

https://www.stack.com/a/remember-when-shaq-was-ripped-and-super-athletic-heres-how-he-put-on-so-much-weight

And even his listed weight goes from reasonable to hilarious very quickly, 

 

I just truly don't know how anyone can have watched the NBA back in the early 2000's and not seen that Shaq showed up fat many years and worked the weight off.  It's a literal fact that has been talked about for years now.

 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, briantw said:

I mean, there are plenty of sources that say it was:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2005414-kobe-bryant-says-shaquille-oneals-laziness-drove-him-crazy

https://www.stack.com/a/remember-when-shaq-was-ripped-and-super-athletic-heres-how-he-put-on-so-much-weight

And even his listed weight goes from reasonable to hilarious very quickly, 

Well, I didn't look at that those links, but based on the tweet you posted, he was within 100 pounds throughout his career.  Which necessarily means he wasn't 100 pounds overweight, unless you're suggesting he came into the league overweight?  One of the urls you shared suggested it was Kobe's opinion, which means I entirely don't care.  Generally, did he get fat throughout his career?  Of course!  That's my point.  It doesn't make him lazy, nor a POS.  All that is on you.

[briantw]

Just now, DMC said:

Well, I didn't look at that those links, but based on the tweet you posted, he was within 100 pounds throughout his career.  Which necessarily means he wasn't 100 pounds overweight, unless you're suggesting he came into the league overweight?  One of the urls you shared suggested it was Kobe's opinion, which means I entirely don't care.  Generally, did he get fat throughout his career?  Of course!  That's my point.  It doesn't make him lazy, nor a POS.  All that is on you.

I mean, 100 pounds is a huge range for weight.  There are basically zero people who will see their weight fluctuate in a 100 pound range in their adult life, and almost all of them that will start out very overweight.

And again, calling him a POS wasn't meant to be some huge insult.  No idea why you all seem to think that.  Maybe it's because I'm from a younger generation, but calling someone a POS is basically meaningless to me.  It's a general insult, like calling someone a prick.  

[DMC]

11 minutes ago, briantw said:

And again, calling him a POS wasn't meant to be some huge insult.  No idea why you all seem to think that.  Maybe it's because I'm from a younger generation, but calling someone a POS is basically meaningless to me.  It's a general insult, like calling someone a prick.  

Well then you're a POS and a prick 

ETA:  I suppose I should edit that.  I don't think @briantw is either a piece of shit nor a prick, and I doubt that's the impression he'd get by my joke of a post.  At least I hope it wasn't.

Yeah, no big deal.  I don't think you're younger than me.  Are you?  Fuck I'm getting old.

[Relic]

15 hours ago, briantw said:

Maybe you just need to remove the stick from your ass.  I don't hate any of these guys.

ok, pardon me for reading into the only thing i can read into - your words. You come here to shit post basically everyone, so hard to fault people for not getting your true intent.

and i like sticks up my ass, thank you very much. ill keep it there.  going forward i'll know you arent being toxic, and keep it in mind, tho. 

 

also, how old are you?

[Jaime L]

23 minutes ago, Relic said:

also, how old are you?

a/s/l

[briantw]

11 hours ago, DMC said:

Well then you're a POS and a prick 

ETA:  I suppose I should edit that.  I don't think @briantw is either a piece of shit nor a prick, and I doubt that's the impression he'd get by my joke of a post.  At least I hope it wasn't.

Yeah, no big deal.  I don't think you're younger than me.  Are you?  Fuck I'm getting old.

No need to edit.  The smiley face was enough.

And I'm a bit over 30.  Not sure if that makes me older than you or not.  

[BigFatCoward]

Talking of people being out of shape.  Zion looks like he could balloon and be fat as fuck quite easily. 

[briantw]

1 hour ago, Relic said:

ok, pardon me for reading into the only thing i can read into - your words. You come here to shit post basically everyone, so hard to fault people for not getting your true intent.

I've made fun of LeBron a couple of times (while mentioning that I still believe him to be the GOAT) and I said that Shaq could have been a top five player EVER if he were less lazy, which implies he's still pretty damn good.  

Not sure that qualifies as shit posting everyone, but whatever.  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

I’m pretty sure that all three of you are the same age. You’re all 33/34, Relic, DMC, and Brian.

Old farts!

[briantw]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I’m pretty sure that all three of you are the same age. You’re all 33/34, Relic, DMC, and Brian.

Old farts!

I sure feel old after a night of drinking these days.  This morning has been fucking rough.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

12 hours ago, DMC said:

Well, I didn't look at that those links, but based on the tweet you posted, he was within 100 pounds throughout his career.  Which necessarily means he wasn't 100 pounds overweight, unless you're suggesting he came into the league overweight?  One of the urls you shared suggested it was Kobe's opinion, which means I entirely don't care.  Generally, did he get fat throughout his career?  Of course!  That's my point.  It doesn't make him lazy, nor a POS.  All that is on you.

I’ll get back to what you and Jaime said later today when I have some time because it will take a bit and I need to research a few things (mainly about Russell), but yes, it was Kobe who accused Shaq of dogging it. I heard a report years ago that there was a specific incident that made Kobe lose it. It occurred just before the season started, and it was either the year they won their second or third title, but iirc, it was the latter. Kobe is the classic first in, last out guy, and he had been at the facility working out for hours when Shaq arrived. Allegedly he showed up with a bag full of cheeseburgers and ate several of them while watching other guys workout. Kobe is said to have freaked out at him and their relationship just continued to sour from there. I have no idea if the details are accurate, but I recall the source being credible. And it does make sense. Kobe always gave the maximum effort while Shaq coasted a lot while relying on his size and talent. Kobe is a totally toxic person, but I can understand why from his perspective he was unable to mend fences with Shaq at the time.

[Jaime L]

7 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I’m pretty sure that all three of you are the same age. You’re all 33/34, Relic, DMC, and Brian.

Old farts!

Relic's older than that.

Have you started shaving yet?