NBA 2019 - Now the Joy in My World is in Zion

[DMC]

10 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Does this change your opinion?

No.  I think he beat the Pistons (and the Lakers) because the Bulls were improving and those two teams were clearly declining.

[Jaime L]

 

 

[Slurktan]

On 3/23/2019 at 2:26 AM, Relic said:

Pretty much. Found a version of this board right before aCoK was released. At this point the only person who has been here longer than me, as far as i know, is...Ran? Trebla? 

You certainly proceeded me on the old board although I can't remember your old name.

[Ramsay B.]

^^^^That Lamb buzzer beater was unreal. Wow! 

The best part is how sour Kemba was that the pass got tipped away from another angle of it. Total disgust to pure joy.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

On 3/22/2019 at 7:41 PM, Jace, Basilissa said:

This is just getting awful for North Dakota St.

Can they leave? Just go home?

n00b

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

19 hours ago, DMC said:

No.  I think he beat the Pistons (and the Lakers) because the Bulls were improving and those two teams were clearly declining.

Both can be true at the same time. Other powers were declining, but Jordan specifically sought out strength training to take his game to the next level. Idk how you can keep denying that.

[DMC]

35 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Idk how you can keep denying that.

Because the shift between the Pistons and Bulls from 89-90 to 90-91 is very clear and cannot credibly be attributed to Jordan's workout regime.  The Pistons went from 59 wins to 50 wins while the Bulls went from 55 wins to 61 wins in the regular season.  Perhaps most importantly, Isiah Thomas was injured for much of the season and mostly sucked in the Eastern Conference finals where the Bulls easily swept the Pistons.  That's why the Bulls beat the Pistons that year, full stop.

I don't know if Jordan "pioneered" strength and conditioning, and frankly I don't care.  It does sound like the typical myth-making that 30 for 30 traffics in (and indeed is the premise of the show), and considering McGwire and Canseco had long before started sticking needles in each other it sounds anachronistic, but whatever.  What I do know is the conditioning didn't help him play anymore minutes (which granted basically would have been impossible) nor make him a more productive player on a per minute basis - and as for strength lol, Jordan never relied on strength.

[Maithanet]

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

Because the shift between the Pistons and Bulls from 89-90 to 90-91 is very clear and cannot credibly be attributed to Jordan's workout regime.  The Pistons went from 59 wins to 50 wins while the Bulls went from 55 wins to 61 wins in the regular season.  Perhaps most importantly, Isiah Thomas was injured for much of the season and mostly sucked in the Eastern Conference finals where the Bulls easily swept the Pistons.  That's why the Bulls beat the Pistons that year, full stop.

This goes back to something I've said a couple times on this forum, the addage that the NBA is cruel to the young.  Young stars often look fantastic in the regular season, but then seem unable to win close games/series in the playoffs.  There are obviously exceptions to this, generally when a young star has an older star to help out (a la Shaq helping Kobe).  I understand you can find exceptions to this rule.  Curry et al won a championship in 2015 in what was essentially their first year a true contender (although the team looked VERY shaky in the Finals against Lebron's one man band). 

But nonetheless, I find the expression useful in describing what happened to both Jordan and Lebron.  For as good as they were early in their careers, they both experienced significant playoff failures before finally being able to overcome and triumph.  It's like they "learned" how to be the very best version of themselves in the playoffs.  Lebron was very underwhelming in the 2009, 2010 and 2011 playoff losses, but every year since then he's played like a champion.  I was too young to see the Pistons vs Jordan firsthand, but the narrative fits very well for that. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

57 minutes ago, DMC said:

Because the shift between the Pistons and Bulls from 89-90 to 90-91 is very clear and cannot credibly be attributed to Jordan's workout regime.  The Pistons went from 59 wins to 50 wins while the Bulls went from 55 wins to 61 wins in the regular season.  Perhaps most importantly, Isiah Thomas was injured for much of the season and mostly sucked in the Eastern Conference finals where the Bulls easily swept the Pistons.  That's why the Bulls beat the Pistons that year, full stop.

I don't know if Jordan "pioneered" strength and conditioning, and frankly I don't care.  It does sound like the typical myth-making that 30 for 30 traffics in (and indeed is the premise of the show), and considering McGwire and Canseco had long before started sticking needles in each other it sounds anachronistic, but whatever.  What I do know is the conditioning didn't help him play anymore minutes (which granted basically would have been impossible) nor make him a more productive player on a per minute basis - and as for strength lol, Jordan never relied on strength.

Of course it matters that the best players on the Pistons, Lakers and Celtics were in decline and near retirement when Jordan’s Bulls rose to be the dominate team in the NBA. But it also matters that Jordan overhauled is training regiment, and that his who strength and conditioning team are articulating that that’s what helped in take his own game to another level.

As for who pioneered the value of strength and conditioning, I can’t say. But roiding up is not the same as weight lifting, and it’s pretty clear the Jordan popularized the latter in the NBA.

44 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

This goes back to something I've said a couple times on this forum, the addage that the NBA is cruel to the young. 

Yup. More often than not you have to suffer before you enjoy success in the NBA. And I bet that’s why some people are less bullish on the Bucks.

[Maithanet]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Yup. More often than not you have to suffer before you enjoy success in the NBA. And I bet that’s why some people are less bullish on the Bucks.

That is explicitly why I do not expect the Bucks to get out of East.  We'll see how it plays out, but I think that both the experience edge of both Raptors and the Celtics will be important. 

[DMC]

7 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But it also matters that Jordan overhauled is training regiment, and that his who strength and conditioning team are articulating that that’s what helped in take his own game to another level.

Again - there is no statistical evidence that "he took his game to another level," even in the playoffs.  And while I was 5 and 6 during the two playoffs in question and don't really remember those specifically, I do distinctly remember the next two years of his first three-peat.  And there's simply no reason to think any significant improvement on Jordan's part was because he got stronger.

7 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But roiding up is not the same as weight lifting

Well, duh, the point is they were really into getting stronger to the point where weight lifting wasn't enough.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

That is explicitly why I do not expect the Bucks to get out of East.  We'll see how it plays out, but I think that both the experience edge of both Raptors and the Celtics will be important. 

Honestly I think the recent injuries will be a bigger problem for the Bucks than inexperience. The Brogdon one really hurts, considering he is looking like the rare entry into the 50/40/90 club.

Honestly the entire East is up in the air. The Bucks are hurt and lack experience. The Raptors are great, but that’s because they can go 12 deep. That doesn’t matter in the playoffs. The Celtics were the preseason favorite, but they clearly don’t play well as a team. And the Sixers have the best starting five, but the worst bench. Anyone of these teams can win the East, but none will be favored in the championship.  

[Maithanet]

The good news is that the Pacers have finally faltered a bit in their recent hard stretch of games, and thus are 2.5 games back of the Sixers for the 3 seed (and lost the tiebreaker).  Nothing is guaranteed, but the possibility of Celtics vs Bucks and Raptors vs Sixers in the second round is very much alive. 

EDIT:  I'm planning to get sling for the month just to see the second and third rounds of the playoffs. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

16 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

The good news is that the Pacers have finally faltered a bit in their recent hard stretch of games, and thus are 2.5 games back of the Sixers for the 3 seed (and lost the tiebreaker).  Nothing is guaranteed, but the possibility of Celtics vs Bucks and Raptors vs Sixers in the second round is very much alive. 

EDIT:  I'm planning to get sling for the month just to see the second and third rounds of the playoffs. 

I take it you cut the cord?  

[Maithanet]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

I take it you cut the cord?  

Yes.  Most of the time I do not miss it. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Yes.  Most of the time I do not miss it. 

I don’t blame you. If you’ve got a Netflix, Prime and HBO Go login, TV is worthless (never used Hulu). All I’d miss is sports and having MSNBC or CNN on in the background while I work on w/e.   

[Jaime L]

3 hours ago, Maithanet said:

This goes back to something I've said a couple times on this forum, the addage that the NBA is cruel to the young.  Young stars often look fantastic in the regular season, but then seem unable to win close games/series in the playoffs.  There are obviously exceptions to this, generally when a young star has an older star to help out (a la Shaq helping Kobe).  I understand you can find exceptions to this rule.  Curry et al won a championship in 2015 in what was essentially their first year a true contender (although the team looked VERY shaky in the Finals against Lebron's one man band). 

But nonetheless, I find the expression useful in describing what happened to both Jordan and Lebron.  For as good as they were early in their careers, they both experienced significant playoff failures before finally being able to overcome and triumph.  It's like they "learned" how to be the very best version of themselves in the playoffs.  Lebron was very underwhelming in the 2009, 2010 and 2011 playoff losses, but every year since then he's played like a champion.  I was too young to see the Pistons vs Jordan firsthand, but the narrative fits very well for that. 

True, no matter how great the player there's still that playoffs learning curve. Jordan had it, Lebron had it, OKC had it. The only real exception was Tim Duncan winning the title as a rookie though that was a function of a bunch of impossible to repeat factors (Jordan retiring, joining a team with David Robinson, a strike etc.)

The real question is how much (and the type of) playoff experience a team needs to take the next step. You mentioned the Warriors going from first round loser to champion, but OKC too only needed one hard-fought first round series against the champion Lakers to become an elite contender from that point on. The Bucks have lost in the first round the last two years, in 6 to the Raptors and in 7 to the Celtics last year. Who's to say that's not enough experience to make a deep run this year considering the overall leap they made this year? Lot of similarities to the "good" '14 Warriors evolving into the "great" '15 Warriors. 

[briantw]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Honestly I think the recent injuries will be a bigger problem for the Bucks than inexperience. The Brogdon one really hurts, considering he is looking like the rare entry into the 50/40/90 club.

Honestly the entire East is up in the air. The Bucks are hurt and lack experience. The Raptors are great, but that’s because they can go 12 deep. That doesn’t matter in the playoffs. The Celtics were the preseason favorite, but they clearly don’t play well as a team. And the Sixers have the best starting five, but the worst bench. Anyone of these teams can win the East, but none will be favored in the championship.  

My vote is for the Raptors.  In a sea of similarly talented teams, they have the best player who has been there before.  

[Maithanet]

5 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

True, no matter how great the player there's still that playoffs learning curve. Jordan had it, Lebron had it, OKC had it. The only real exception was Tim Duncan winning the title as a rookie though that was a function of a bunch of impossible to repeat factors (Jordan retiring, joining a team with David Robinson, a strike etc.)

Yeah, I'm not really sure Duncan really counts, that was a super weird year, Robinson was essential, etc.  Duncan took his lumps the next few years from the Shaq/Kobe Lakers before he broke through and won another one. 

Quote

The real question is how much (and the type of) playoff experience a team needs to take the next step. You mentioned the Warriors going from first round loser to champion, but OKC too only needed one hard-fought first round series against the champion Lakers to become an elite contender from that point on. The Bucks have lost in the first round the last two years, in 6 to the Raptors and in 7 to the Celtics last year. Who's to say that's not enough experience to make a deep run this year considering the overall leap they made this year? Lot of similarities to the "good" '14 Warriors evolving into the "great" '15 Warriors. 

I'd argue that OKC wasn't quite ready for primetime either, because if they had been, they would have won.  OKC had 3 future MVPs on that team, not to mention some other capable role players.  But Harden and Westbrook both played far, far below their capabilities in that Finals, and thus the result wasn't even close. 

As for the Bucks, we'll see.  Maybe they can break through, but it will be a true test.  Celtics and Raptors both have the talent and experience to push them to the limit. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, briantw said:

My vote is for the Raptors.  In a sea of similarly talented teams, they have the best player who has been there before.  

They have the most complete player because Kawhi can shoot, but I'm not sure if he stills better than Giannis, who has a 50/50 chance of being MVP. And good lord if that man ever learns to shoot, it's game over.

Also, as said above, the Raptor's greatest strength, their excellent bench, will be diminished in the playoffs. And besides, the Raptors always seem to Raptors themselves in the playoff. Right @Fragile Bird?