Who is the 3EC?

[The Fattest Leech]

On 2/16/2019 at 12:15 PM, Curled Finger said:

Ha! Like our friend @The Fattest Leech, I had never participated in forum discussions.    I ended up here via the Wiki because I confused Cersei's friend Melora with the Mad Maid, Malora or whatever. 

Somewhat the same here with how I found this forum. After reading the books, and talking with a friend about certain plot ideas, I googled and found this forum. I lurked for a long time before pinching my nose and jumping in feet first.

On 2/16/2019 at 12:15 PM, Curled Finger said:

 As I was listening (and I was told to pay attention), I made this awesome connection which turned out to be so wrong.   But I did find this place and despite the frustration with a few things it's a very good place.  There is so much I was unable to nuance myself but learned with much reading and participation in the conversations here.   I would have never put Brynden Rivers together as 3EC.   How could I?   He is barely mentioned in the main series.   It made much more sense when I read the D&E novellas, which are delightful even now after multiple listens.   Still, I would not have made the connections without the many many arguments and discussions between finer detectives than myself.   I'm good with BR = 3EC.   I'm good with Bran = 3EC.   It only seems to really matter here.   Though I loathed the the thought of ASOIAF being a frickin sci fi time travel reality flipped story even that became palatable after exposure to the reasons why concepts works.   This story demands a community to figure it out.    

For me, when we finally saw Bloodraven on page, and getting what little backstory we were told of him, what really clicked to me is the discussion with Catelyn about the Blackfyre issue, and then we meet the one guy in the current story that connects past, present, future, and wow, it started coming together. I still missed a few things (mt friend is not "in" to the books at our level here), but that is what this forum is for  It seems Cat was right in thinking that it was going to be a future BF/family issue, but that the players will not be who she believes. This happens a lot in this story it seems, and it goes along with the "half truth" playing out over and over. The next "Blackfyre" and Dance of Dragons debacle will ultimately be between Jon (with Bran) and Daenerys (after she conquers Aegon).

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Jô Maltese said:

Watch again, around the 1 hour 32 minute mark, Elio Ran is saying that GRRM always knew that the Three-Eyed Crow would be tied to the Targaryens, maybe not necessarily who, but that there'd be a connection to the Targs and then decided to go for BR to connect the dots with the D&E novellas (A thousand eyes and one).

But that's not exactly what he is saying, he isn't saying, that GRRM decided to go for Bloodraven. That interview with GRRM happened in 1994 (or 1998), and what Ran said is that, when they asked GRRM, whether he always knew, that the Three-eyed Crow was Bloodraven, GRRM's answer was - he always knew, that he will be tied with the Targaryens. he may not have a specifics... etc.

Though the question is - when exactly ends GRRM's quote, and beging Ran's interpretation of what was said during that conversation? Also, that interview happened long time ago, so was it recorded? does Ran remember exact words, of what GRRM has said? Did GRRM said this -> "I always knew, that he will be tied with the Targaryens"? or did he said this -> "I always knew, that the Three-eyed Crow will be tied with the Targaryens"? <- those are two ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS.

Also, was those next words, also said by GRRM, did he said, that he may not have a specifics, etc. or is that Ran's interpretation, of what he was talking about with GRRM? Did GRRM said something like "I didn't had a specifics at that time, but .... etc." ?

They asked GRRM this -> "Did you always knew, that the Three-eyed Crow was Bloodraven?". That's a WRONG question. And GRRM didn't said, that yes, Bloodraven is the 3EC. He didn't confirmed, nor denied it. Because the question was wrong. But even if the question was correctly phrased, GRRM is a master of answering asked questions without actually answering <- my English is lacking, not sure exactly, how to phrase it correctly. The point is, that even though GRRM and Ran had that conversation about 3EC, it is not definite, that the 3EC is Bloodraven, at least not in the books (while in the TV-show he is 3ERaven, not 3ECrow). 

GRRM didn't said "3EC is Bloodraven", so that interview is not a confirmation of 3EC's identity. We don't even know, what exactly was said then, and exact phrasing in that case, is what makes a difference between [3EC's identity as Bloodraven is confirmed] and [It is not known yet, who is the 3EC].

Your [3EC=Bloodraven] is a supposition, same as my theory, that [3EC=Shiera Seastar], while the fact for now is still [3EC=?]

[Curled Finger]

19 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Hey, Ser!

Agreed 100% - GRRM has given us so many potential avenues to go down with the plot that it helps to have a place you where you can drop in and discuss ideas. I like to think of the forum like an Oldtown alehouse, and we are all the frazzled students, helping each other "earn a few extra links to our Maester's chain" 

 

Another round for the house on the sword geeks!   

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Somewhat the same here with how I found this forum. After reading the books, and talking with a friend about certain plot ideas, I googled and found this forum. I lurked for a long time before pinching my nose and jumping in feet first.

For me, when we finally saw Bloodraven on page, and getting what little backstory we were told of him, what really clicked to me is the discussion with Catelyn about the Blackfyre issue, and then we meet the one guy in the current story that connects past, present, future, and wow, it started coming together. I still missed a few things (mt friend is not "in" to the books at our level here), but that is what this forum is for  It seems Cat was right in thinking that it was going to be a future BF/family issue, but that the players will not be who she believes. This happens a lot in this story it seems, and it goes along with the "half truth" playing out over and over. The next "Blackfyre" and Dance of Dragons debacle will ultimately be between Jon (with Bran) and Daenerys (after she conquers Aegon).

I read your 1st post which is why i tagged you.   You are an authority on many subjects here.   Particularly Martin's other works.  Our lovely @kissdbyfire has been busy rounding up topics and ideas--clever clever blood bathed wench--I think it's important to show that we all began somewhere.   It is study and research and discussion that has made you an authority, my big haired friend.   All these new posters who want to dredge up the old discussions are no different from our own journeys.   Even now as I become more and more apprehensive to post topics because I am inevitably referred to some other topic, it is fun to pop in and see what the latest mindset is around here.   We come here to discuss, not just read.   I'm very pleased with the fun we are having with these collections of ideas-where mainstream ideas can be discussed, old friends can be greeted and new friends are made.   

Thanks very much for your own revelation of Bloodraven = 3EC.    These things come at us from so many different angles.    This makes perfect sense for your revelation.   Makes me want to do a reread with only the Blackfyre Rebellions in mind.   A toast to big hair and mystery solving!   

[Prince of the North]

3 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

If it isn't "confirmed" by GRRM, then it is not confirmed.

Agreed.  But...Martin can, of course, "confirm" something in different ways

Quote

Prior to the release of A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, there arose a theory that Bloodraven was the 3-eyed crow.  I don't recall what the theory was based on, but it was out there.

Thanks for saying/confirming this.  Bloodraven as TEC was talked about for years prior ADWD being published so, obviously, there was no other info or any sort of "inside" info necessary to come up with the possibility/theory.  

Quote

After ADWD was released, these people obviously felt that their theory had been 'confirmed".  That is what the "Compendium of Theories" is referring to.  But these people have no special inside information. 

Yep.  I believe Martin gave us the closest thing to confirmation that TEC is Bloodraven that he's going to so long as ASoIaF remains unfinished.  In fact, I find it doubtful that Martin would give a direct, unambiguous answer even now if he were asked straight up if Bloodraven is TEC?  It just doesn't seem to be his style to me...at least with ASoIaF.  Now, when the series is complete he may be more direct about things...I don't know

[Platypus Rex]

4 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

I believe Martin gave us the closest thing to confirmation that TEC is Bloodraven that he's going to so long as ASoIaF remains unfinished.  

I don't think so.  Ran's question was not a request for spoilers.  Ran assumed that Bloodraven = 3-eyed crow was already confirmed, and asked GRRM a question that incorporated this assumption.

George then gave an answer which would have been crafted not to give anything away, if there were anything to give away.

So if Bloodraven = 3-eyed crow, his answer meant what Ran assumed it meant.  If Bloodraven =/= 3 eyed crow, then GRRM's answer was probably technically true but carefully crafted not to give anything away.   And we don't have the exact words.

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

Regarding the video linked up thread and the 3EC x “3ER” (  )... Cheers, @Jô Maltese. For posting it in the first place, but also for the extra info on it. I thought @Ran and Linda talked about more than just show stuff, but couldn’t remember for sure, and haven’t had the chance to watch it again. 

[Prince of the North]

4 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

I don't think so.  Ran's question was not a request for spoilers.  Ran assumed that Bloodraven = 3-eyed crow was already confirmed, and asked GRRM a question that incorporated this assumption.

George then gave an answer which would have been crafted not to give anything away, if there were anything to give away.

So if Bloodraven = 3-eyed crow, his answer meant what Ran assumed it meant.  If Bloodraven =/= 3 eyed crow, then GRRM's answer was probably technically true but carefully crafted not to give anything away.   And we don't have the exact words.

 

 

Um, that's not what I'm referring to at all.  I believe Martin wrote in ADWD the closest thing we're going to get that Bloodraven is TEC...until, maybe, after ASoIaF is finished.  Then Martin may be more willing to answer questions about ASoIaF more directly than he seems to be now

ETA: fixed typo.

 

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Your [3EC=Bloodraven] is a supposition, same as my theory, that [3EC=Shiera Seastar], while the fact for now is still [3EC=?]

No, sorry, but these are absolutely not the same. I suppose one can argue that the 3EC being Bloodraven hasn’t been confirmed officially in the books yet, but there are lots of hints and clues pointing to that. Both in the main series and the D&E novellas and WB and so on. 

Your idea that the 3EC is Shiera Seastar is just an idea, based on... I have no idea, w/ no hints or clues to be found anywhere other than your head canon.

 

[Platypus Rex]

1 hour ago, Prince of the North said:

Um, that's not what I'm referring to at all.  I believe Martin wrote in ADWD the closest thing we're going to get that Bloodraven is TEC...until, maybe, after ASoIaF is finished.  

Oh, sure.  Obviously, that Bloodraven = 3EC is what we are supposed to believe right now.  Those who suspect otherwise are expecting some kind of twist.  If no twist materializes in future volumes, your position wins by default.  Perfectly fair.

[corbon]

On 2/17/2019 at 8:35 AM, Megorova said:

In the first place I figured out, that the 3EC is not Bloodraven, based on what was written in the book (that the crow was a woman, thus it can't be Bloodraven), and I'm not the only one who has noticed that Big Reveal. It's writen in plain text -> "the crow was really a woman".

GRRM uses a dream/reality mix at the end of a dream like this more than once. Ned's dream about the ToJ, for example, where it is not Lyanna calling his name, its his steward, Vayon Poole (hint, Lyanna wouldn't be calling him "Lord Eddard").

The long black haired serving woman has zero to do with the 3EC IMO, literally or figuratively. She is nothing more or less than a common serving woman who was in Bran's room doing mundane things when his consciousness shifted from dream-state to waking. Just as Vayon Poole had nothing, literally or figuratively, to do with the ToJ. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

GRRM uses a dream/reality mix at the end of a dream like this more than once. Ned's dream about the ToJ, for example, where it is not Lyanna calling his name, its his steward, Vayon Poole (hint, Lyanna wouldn't be calling him "Lord Eddard").

The long black haired serving woman has zero to do with the 3EC IMO, literally or figuratively. She is nothing more or less than a common serving woman who was in Bran's room doing mundane things when his consciousness shifted from dream-state to waking. Just as Vayon Poole had nothing, literally or figuratively, to do with the ToJ. 

New theory! Vayon Poole is Lyanna's father... or maybe lover... or both! I'll decide later. Thanks! 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

New theory! Vayon Poole is Lyanna's father... or maybe lover... or both! I'll decide later. Thanks! 

Next “Who is Jon’s dad” thread I will have to say, Vayon Poole! 

And OMFG, when Jeyne/fArya arrives at CB... just think about it! Jon expects his “sister” Arya who is really his cousin. And who arrives posing as Arya is Jeyne Poole, his actual sister!

[kleevedge]

There are a few points that make me doubt that Bloodraven is the 3EC.

1. They way Leaf responds to Bran after he asks if she's taking him to see the 3EC and she corrects him by saying "the Greenseer".

2. When Bran asks Bloodraven if he is the 3EC and he responds by saying he was a member of the Night's Watch.

3. In Bran's dream, how the Weirwood who seems to represent Bloodraven is watching Bran fall while the crow is actually engaging with Bran. I don't see Bloodraven manifesting himself in 2 different ways in the same dream at the same time.

Quote

At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly

4. The fact the GRRM is calling it a crow and not a raven, knowing Bran would know the difference spending time in the rookery with the Ravens and feeding the crows on the first keep. This could be just to throw off the scent, but it would be sloppy writing if it is.

To me the crow seems to be linked with death, the only 2 characters we know who were visited by the 3EC was Jojen when he almost died of Greywater fever and Bran after he almost died from his fall. Also a crow in most other mythology is linked to death as well. This makes me think there is a possibility of the 3EC being a manifestation of death; like the stranger, lion of night, god of many faces, etc... I do have another theory but it borders more on Fanfic than theory about Shiera Seastar being the 3EC, and there being others who had near death experiences with the 3EC.