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Bael's Bastard

Lyanna, and Brandon, were traveling with Lord Rickard's wedding party when Rhaegar allegedly abducted Lyanna

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

IMO Lyanna got spooked after Rhaegar crowned her queen of love and beauty, because she thought he must have suspected she had something to do with the Knight of the Laughing Tree. So she took off after the tourney to hide just as Arya hid with Nymeria after throwing Joffrey's sword in the Trident, which I believe is a sort of parallel metaphor for what Lyanna did. When Cersei declares they "have a wolf" it's a parallel for when Lyanna is captured.

@Feather Crystal

Why would Lyanna feel the need to take off on her own and hide after the Harrenhal Tourney? Even if she worried about being discovered, she was attending the tourney with her three brothers and no doubt some number of Stark men. Stark-friendly lords like Jon Arryn, Yohn Royce, and Eon Hunter were in attendance. Lyanna's betrothed Lord Robert was in attendance. Her brother's betrothed Catelyn was the daughter of the liege lord of House Whent, who put on the Harrenhal Tourney, and all the other lords of the Riverlands, as well as a daughter of a lady from House Whent.

What indication is there that Lyanna had already gone missing before it was learned that she had been abducted?

I definitely think there are portions of our current story that can be informative about things in the past, but I don't see any indication that Lyanna had run away and was missing after the Harrenhal Tourney before she was allegedly abducted.

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

The tourney at Harrenhal is what sparked the events that led into the Rebellion. If you understand that the titled chapters in AFFC and ADWD tell two stories with a second one hidden in the parallels, metaphors, and symbolism, then you might accept the idea that the reason why Arya as Cat of the Canals serves three nights out of every month at the House of Black and White is because the three nights are symbolic of the three knights the Knight of the Laughing Tree defeated, and the thirty days represent the length of time Lyanna managed to remain hidden until she was captured. 

The Harrenhal Tourney was certainly part of the build towards Robert's Rebellion. But I don't think your interpretation of "three days of every thirty" (AFFC: Cat of the Canals) makes sense.

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Brandon had travelled to Riverrun to marry Catelyn, because it seems like it's a tradition to marry at the first of the year. If the tourney was held near the end of the year and Brandon's wedding was set for the first month of the year, then Lyanna was missing for about a month.

The only example I can recall of a wedding on the first of the year is the wedding of Joffrey and Margaery, which was also the first day of the new century: "Joffrey and Margaery shall marry on the first day of the new year, which as it happens is also the first day of the new century. The ceremony will herald the dawn of a new era." (ASOS: Tyrion I). That isn't enough to read a tradition into.

TWOIAF: The Fall of the Dragons - The Year of the False Spring tells us:

  • "The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns."
     
  • "As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance."
     
  • "On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King's Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush."
     
  • "The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight"
     
  • "As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn."
     
  • "With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands."

So it isn't clear how many weeks or months passed between the end of the Harrenhal Tourney in late 281 AC and the beginning of 282 AC, or how many weeks or months into 282 AC the alleged abduction of Lyanna occurred, or how many weeks or months into 282 AC the execution of Brandon occurred.

But we do know that Rhaegar returned to Dragonstone and attended the birth of his son Aegon after the Harrenhal Tourney, some time before he took to the road with the coming of the year 282 AC.

And we also know that Brandon, who was born in 262 AC, must have already reached his twentieth birthday in 282 AC before he dueled Littlefinger prior to leaving Riverrun.

Catelyn was past delicacy. "He was my father's ward. We grew up together in Riverrun. I thought of him as a brother, but his feelings for me were … more than brotherly. When it was announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark, Petyr challenged for the right to my hand. It was madness. Brandon was twenty, Petyr scarcely fifteen. I had to beg Brandon to spare Petyr's life. He let him off with a scar. Afterward my father sent him away. I have not seen him since." She lifted her face to the spray, as if the brisk wind could blow the memories away. "He wrote to me at Riverrun after Brandon was killed, but I burned the letter unread. By then I knew that Ned would marry me in his brother's place."

- AGOT: Catelyn IV

And let us remember that, however many days, weeks, or months into 282 AC Brandon's duel with Littlefinger occurred, it must have still taken some amount of days, weeks, or months for:

  • Brandon to ride off to wherever he left Riverrun to go, do whatever he left Riverrun to do, and to be on his way back to Riverrun when he heard about Lyanna
     
  • Brandon to ride to King's Landing from wherever he was when he heard about Lyanna
     
  • Lord Rickard to receive King Aerys's summons and make his way to King's Landing from wherever he was

And that even after however many days, weeks, or months of 282 AC had passed after all of those things had occurred, Brandon's execution still occurred "a few short days before he was to wed Catelyn Tully of Riverrun" (AGOT: Eddard I).

 

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1 hour ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Nonsense. There is a total of 1 marriage in the books that happens at the first of the year and every single other marriage happens at another time. It doesn't "seem like" at all.

I agree. And the one example we have also occurs on the first day of a new century.

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Rhaegar and Elia and Joffrey and Margaery were both said to have married at the beginning of the new year.

It's implied that Rhaegar and Elia married in the first month of 280 since it was a year after their betrothal in early 279.

Perhaps the reason why weddings may be reserved for the beginning of a new year has to do with deflowering a young maiden?

The World book also asserts that Rhaegar came upon Lyanna early in the year:

If Lyanna went missing early in the year, it only makes sense that Brandon's wedding was also planned for the new year.

@Feather Crystal

Rhaegar and Elia are said to have been betrothed "Early in the year 279 AC," but are only said to have wed "the following year." The wording does not in and of itself indicate that the wedding occurred on the first day, or in the first month, of 280 AC.

That said, we do have reason from elsewhere in ASOIAF to believe that the wedding of Rhaegar and Elia would have occurred as early in the year 280 AC as possible, since:

  • Rhaenys was born in late 280 AC (TWOIAF: Aerys II)
     
  • Elia was bedridden for half a year after Rhaenys's birth in late 280 AC (ADWD: The Griffin Reborn)
     
  • Rhaegar was present for Aegon's birth (ACOK: Daenerys IV)
     
  • Rhaegar had taken to the road at the coming of 282 AC, and could not be found on Dragonstone, and was not present in King's Landing as Aerys had pyromancers burning wildfire on the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn (TWOIAF: The Fall of the Dragons - The Year of the False Spring)

TWOIAF does not indicate at which point in the year Rhaegar came upon Lyanna, only that Rhaegar and his companions had taken to the road with the coming of the new year "on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands" (TWOIAF: The Fall of the Dragons - The Year of the False Spring).

Based on the fact that Brandon, who was born in 262 AC, had already turned twenty when he dueled Littlefinger, and that even after an unknown number of days, weeks, or months had passed, his execution still occurred days before his wedding was scheduled to take place, we can rule out the idea that the wedding had been scheduled for the first of the year, and even the idea that the wedding had been scheduled for the first month of the year doesn't seem all that likely.

I don't see any indication of Lyanna being missing prior to Brandon hearing about her alleged abduction, after he had already dueled Littlefinger, and after he had already left and was on his way back to Riverrun.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Wouldn’t it be somewhat difficult for a high born maid to “remain hidden” for a whole month? 

I’m not sure I follow... So the idea here is that Lyanna takes off and hides for a month, and is immediately “ abducted” (or whatever)? W/o ever meeting anyone? Is that it?

How long do you suppose high-born Arya was traveling in the Riverlands? She wore many disguises from Arry and Weasel to Nan. She hid in plain sight. 

I do think Lyanna managed to remain hidden in plain sight under a disguise until she's discovered. She was recognized like Arya finally was.

12 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Why would Lyanna feel the need to take off on her own and hide after the Harrenhal Tourney? Even if she worried about being discovered, she was attending the tourney with her three brothers and no doubt some number of Stark men. Stark-friendly lords like Jon Arryn, Yohn Royce, and Eon Hunter were in attendance. Lyanna's betrothed Lord Robert was in attendance. Her brother's betrothed Catelyn was the daughter of the liege lord of House Whent, who put on the Harrenhal Tourney, and all the other lords of the Riverlands, as well as a daughter of a lady from House Whent.

If Lyanna did have a part in playing the Knight of the Laughing Tree she would want her identity kept secret for fear of facing punishment, just like Arya feared punishment after throwing Joffrey's sword in the river. Arya also had her father's men along for protection, but she was still afraid. She's just lucky that it was Jory that found her.

12 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

What indication is there that Lyanna had already gone missing before it was learned that she had been abducted?

There isn't concrete evidence to support this other than proof that she wasn't with Brandon when she'd gone missing. He had to hear of her abduction while he was on his way to wed Catelyn. 

Quote

 

"If you say so. You and he were to wed."

"He was on his way to Riverrun when . . ." Strange, how telling it still made her throat grow tight, after all these years. ". . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do." She remembered how her own father had raged when the news had been brought to Riverrun. The gallant fool, was what he called Brandon.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The Harrenhal Tourney was certainly part of the build towards Robert's Rebellion. But I don't think your interpretation of "three days of every thirty" (AFFC: Cat of the Canals) makes sense.

I'll provide a small sampling of evidence to demonstrate that the Cat of the Canals chapter is meant to parallel Lyanna's time in the Riverlands:

Brusco and his daughters with their suspected parallels: 
    Talea: A gawky girl, all skin and bones, always cold = Catelyn/Lady Stoneheart
    Brea: = Lysa Tully
    Brea's boy = Petyr Baelish
    Cat (Arya): An orphan girl = Lyanna as a runaway, and also Petyr Baelish (Hoster’s ward)
    Brusco: = Hoster Tully

The Long Canal is a mirror of the Trident. It ends at the Moon Pool. The Trident ends at Maidenpool. Moons and maidens seems apt as women are often associated with moons, because of their menstral cycles.

The Prestayns and Antaryons are two square towers - one on each side of the Long Canal. They are mirrors to the Twin Towers of the Freys that spans the Green Fork of the Trident. Down at the end of the Long Canal lies the Palace of Truth also called the Hall of Truth. The Palace of Truth is on an island located on the western end of the Green Canal. It's parallel is the Isle of Faces in the God’s Eye. The “green copper domes” of the Palace of Truth must be referring to either the weirwood trees on the island or the green men, or both. Tree tops and the tops of heads can both be said to be domes. The Isle of the Gods is across the water from the Palace of Truth to the northwest. Of course the God’s Eye and Isle of Faces is southeast of the Twin Towers of the Freys, which are located on the Green Fork of the Trident.

The sweetwater river is an aquaduct made of stone and is a series of arches. It’s mirror is the Frey’s bridge which is a stone arch between the two towers. The Frey's bridge is guarded in the middle by the Water Tower. It has arrow slits, murder holes, and portcullises for defense, which I believe mimic the defensive details of the Titan of Braavos. The current titan of the riverlands is Walder Frey.

The Inn of the Kneeling Man is located on the Red Fork where Torrhen Stark kneeled. Both Arya and Brienne stopped there. It’s the place where Arya’s true identity was revealed by Harwin. Hot Pie is a baker there.

Silty Town district = the Neck is directly north of the Twins

The kindly man commanded Cat to learn three new things before she came home each day. Arya had no trouble with this assignment as there was so much to observe and learn. The kindly man said it is “good to know” these things, and in a later chapter we witness Arya drawing on that knowledge with her first Faceless Men assassination.

Arya is said to be like her aunt Lyanna. Lyanna famously defended Howland from three squires, and then is suspected to have assisted Howland with the Knight of the Laughing Tree. The number three is linked to both Arya and Lyanna. Arya is currently learning from the kindly man, and it is possible that Lyanna learned a few things from Howland, especially if she and Howland merged to become the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

Each character in the chapter should mirror parallel characters from the past. Due to where the kindly man works and the kind of work that he does makes me suspect that his parallel is Howland Reed. Of course we don’t have enough history or information about Howland to make a solid case, but there are a few things that raise my eyebrows, such as Howland learning the magic of the crannogmen to:

Quote

…breath mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear.


When he reached the age of majority, he sought out additional knowledge by paddling a small boat down the Green Fork, evaded the Twins at night, and visited the Isle of Faces in search of the Green Men. He stayed on the island all winter. 

There are geographical parallels between the Palace of Truth and it’s green copper domes on an island located on the western end of the Green Canal to the Isle of Faces in God’s Eye, which Howland reached by floating down the Green Fork of the Trident.

The House of Black and White is a temple that sits upon a rocky knoll made of dark grey stone. It has no windows and has a black tile roof. Its wooden doors are twelve feet high and carved. The left door is white weirwood, the right ebony black. In the center of both doors is a carved moon face - ebony on the weirwood side, weirwood on the ebony side. The knoll upon which it stands holds many passageways cut from the rock. There are three lower levels. Priests and acolytes sleep on the first level, servants sleep on the second, and the third level holds the holy sanctum and the many faces collected by the House. The faces hung on the walls are used in disguises. Upstairs on the main floor lies a pool ten feet across. Thirty statues of the world’s gods line the interior walls surrounding the pool. While there are no regular services, songs, or worship held within the temple, people can visit the gods, the pool, and even ask for a priest. It's also a place many people come to die. It is this House where Arya meets the kindly man, and is initiated into the guild of the Faceless Men.

Greywater Watch, also known as Greywater, is the seat of House Reed. It is roughly located in an eastern headwater of the Green Fork in the swamps of the Neck, southwest of Moat Cailin. It is a castle built upon a crannog, which is a man-made floating island, and it does not stay in the same place, making it impossible for ravens or enemies to find. It’s a mysterious place where many have died trying to find it. This seems to echo the HoBaw pool. You drink from that pool and you die. Any attempts to search for Greywater have ended with invaders sinking into the bogs. The Neck itself is centrally located in Westeros, with the North and its colder climes on one end, and the South with it’s warmer temperatures on the other. It’s a literal geographic manifestation of the artistic design of the doors of the House of Black and White. Greywater’s physical description of floating on a crannog may be an inversion to the rocky knoll of HoBaW, but it is equally mysterious and deathly.

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37 minutes ago, Igziabeher said:

I guess there is no evidence either way as to which route they would've chose.  Maybe if an envoy from the Vale would be going to the Wedding as well with Ned & Robert in tow, they could have met near the Inn at the Crossing and join the party as well.  Is there any reason as to why Ned would not have been present at the wedding of his brother if it were to happen?

@Igziabeher

I don't see why Ned, who was in the Vale with Lord Robert Baratheon and Lord Jon Arryn after the Harrenhal Tourney, wouldn't have attended his brother's wedding at Riverrun. Jon's nephew and heir Elbert Arryn was among Brandon's companions, along with another Vale noble Kyle Royce, so I would think they would have attended Brandon's wedding. I would think it likely that Jon and Robert would have also attended Brandon's wedding. And since Lyanna was in the Riverlands when she was abducted, I would think she was intended to attend Brandon's wedding as well.

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4 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

How long do you suppose high-born Arya was traveling in the Riverlands? She wore many disguises from Arry and Weasel to Nan. She hid in plain sight. 

Sure but Arya had lots of help, starting w/ Yoren when Ned is killed. I thought you meant Lyanna hid on her own for a month, and then was abducted. Which feels a tad strange for me, story-wise, but to each their own. But if I understand correctly, you’re saying she might have had help? Used a disguise? Care to elaborate? 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Based on the fact that Brandon, who was born in 262 AC, had already turned twenty when he dueled Littlefinger, and that even after an unknown number of days, weeks, and months had passed Brandon was executed days before his wedding had been scheduled to take place, we can rule out the idea that the wedding had been scheduled for the first of the year, and even the idea that the wedding had been scheduled for the first month of the year doesn't seem all that likely.

I don't see any indication of Lyanna being missing prior to Brandon hearing about her alleged abduction, after he had already dueled Littlefinger, and after he had already left and was on his way back to Riverrun.

Brandon was born around the time Aerys II was crowned:

Quote

 

Not even the wisest could have known that Aerys II would in time be known as the Mad King, nor that his reign would ultimately put an end to near three centuries of Targaryen rule in Westeros. Yet even as Aerys donned his crown, in that fateful year of 262 AC, a lusty blackhaired son named Robert had just been born to his cousin Steffon Baratheon and his lady wife at Storm's End, whilst far to the north at Winterfell, Lord Rickard Stark celebrated the birth of his own son, Brandon. Another Stark, Eddard, followed within a year. All three of these infants, would, in the fullness of time, play crucial roles in the downfall of the dragons.

 

 

 

While we don't know what month he was born in, all it would take is for his name day to occur after he died to be both 20 when he dueled Petyr and 20 when he died. The duel must have been longer than just a few weeks before the marriage date, because of this sequence: 

 

Quote

 

Catelyn was past delicacy. "He was my father's ward. We grew up together in Riverrun. I thought of him as a brother, but his feelings for me were … more than brotherly. When it was announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark, Petyr challenged for the right to my hand. It was madness. Brandon was twenty, Petyr scarcely fifteen. I had to beg Brandon to spare Petyr's life. He let him off with a scar. Afterward my father sent him away. I have not seen him since." She lifted her face to the spray, as if the brisk wind could blow the memories away. "He wrote to me at Riverrun after Brandon was killed, but I burned the letter unread. By then I knew that Ned would marry me in his brother's place."

 

 

 

 

Brandon planned to be gone for at least a little while, otherwise why leave Riverrun only to come back for the wedding? It sounds like he only came down to duel Petyr some time before the wedding - apparently after his 20th name day. 

He couldn't have said the below quote after Lyanna was abducted, because Catelyn said he was on his way to Riverrun when he heard about Lyanna, and then never arrived for the wedding.
 

Quote

 

She was no stranger to waiting, after all. Her men had always made her wait. "Watch for me, little cat," her father would always tell her, when he rode off to court or fair or battle. And she would, standing patiently on the battlements of Riverrun as the waters of the Red Fork and the Tumblestone flowed by. He did not always come when he said he would, and days would ofttimes pass as Catelyn stood her vigil, peering out between crenels and through arrow loops until she caught a glimpse of Lord Hoster on his old brown gelding, trotting along the river-shore toward the landing. "Did you watch for me?" he'd ask when he bent to hug her. "Did you, little cat?"

Brandon Stark had bid her wait as well. "I shall not be long, my lady," he had vowed. "We will be wed on my return." Yet when the day came at last, it was his brother Eddard who stood beside her in the sept.

 

 

 

 

Quote

Brandon had been twenty when he died, strangled by order of the Mad King Aerys Targaryen only a few short days before he was to wed Catelyn Tully of Riverrun. His father had been forced to watch him die. He was the true heir, the eldest, born to rule.

 

19 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sure but Arya had lots of help, starting w/ Yoren when Ned is killed. I thought you meant Lyanna hid on her own for a month, and then was abducted. Which feels a tad strange for me, story-wise, but to each their own. But if I understand correctly, you’re saying she might have had help? Used a disguise? Care to elaborate? 

If we are to take the Cat of the Canals chapter as a parallel of Lyanna in the Riverlands then Lyanna was with Howland during that month. Arya served the House of Black and White, and the kindly man is a parallel of Howland. Her family may not have been alarmed that she was gone for that month, because they knew she had left with Howland. It's also not inconceivable that they believed she would meet up with them at Riverrun for the wedding.

Just adding another thought...when Arya hid, she had been dueling with the butcher's boy, Mycah. Sandor rode him down. When Lyanna left with Howland, it was Lyanna that ended up dead.

 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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6 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

If we are to take the Cat of the Canals chapter as a parallel of Lyanna in the Riverlands then Lyanna was with Howland during that month. Arya served the House of Black and White, and the kindly man is a parallel of Howland. Her family may not have been alarmed that she was gone for that month, because they knew she had left with Howland. It's also not inconceivable that they believed she would meet up with them at Riverrun for the wedding.

Thank you. But if her family knew where she was and were ok w/ it because she was w/ HR then she wasn’t really missing... 

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Mycah is derived from the Biblical name Micah, which means 'who is like God'.  Howland can do 'godly' things like …breath mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Thank you. But if her family knew where she was and were ok w/ it because she was w/ HR then she wasn’t really missing... 

Nobody ever thinks about Lyanna being 'missing' before hearing of her abduction, so there was nothing to worry about. Why proceed with a wedding if your daughter or sister were missing?

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9 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

How long do you suppose high-born Arya was traveling in the Riverlands? She wore many disguises from Arry and Weasel to Nan. She hid in plain sight. 

Arya was missing for a whopping four days:

They've found her, my lord."

Ned rose quickly. "Our men or Lannister's?"

"It was Jory," his steward Vayon Poole replied. "She's not been harmed."

"Thank the gods," Ned said. His men had been searching for Arya for four days now, but the queen's men had been out hunting as well. "Where is she? Tell Jory to bring her here at once."

- AGOT: Eddard III

17 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

If Lyanna did have a part in playing the Knight of the Laughing Tree she would want her identity kept secret for fear of facing punishment, just like Arya feared punishment after throwing Joffrey's sword in the river. Arya also had her father's men along for protection, but she was still afraid. She's just lucky that it was Jory that found her.

I don't think the comparisons you are making hold up.

Arya is a nine year old girl, who immediately flees with her beloved direwolf after it attacks and bloodies King Robert's son and heir, hides for four days until she is discovered, and sends her direwolf away before she returns with Jory.

Lyanna was almost a woman grown (14-16), who openly fought off three squires with a tourney sword on the first day of the tourney, and remained openly present at the ten day Harrenhal Tourney for over a week after the Knight of the Laughing Tree incident on the second day of the tourney.

I just don't see Lyanna running off on her own and hiding.

32 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

There isn't concrete evidence to support this other than proof that she wasn't with Brandon when she'd gone missing. He had to hear of her abduction while he was on his way to wed Catelyn.

Arya wasn't in Ned's presence at the time she went missing, but she had still been traveling with Ned's party the entire way from Winterfell when the incident and her disappearance occurred.

We can be certain that Lyanna wasn't in Brandon's presence at the time she was allegedly abducted, or at the time Brandon heard about her alleged abduction. But that doesn't rule out the possibility that she had been traveling with Rickard's party, a party Brandon might have joined up with after leaving Riverrun and before making his way back to Riverrun, prior to her alleged abduction.

Regarding the rest of your post, I don't see anything that supports the idea that Lyanna had gone missing or went hiding after the Harrenhal Tourney and before Brandon heard that she had been abducted.

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19 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

He couldn't have said the below quote after Lyanna was abducted, because Catelyn said he was on his way to Riverrun when he heard about Lyanna, and then never arrived for the wedding.
 

This incorrect. This is conflating 1) When Lyanna went missing, and 2) when Brandon learned, which are only related in that 1 had to have happened before 2.

Brandon could have said that to Cat, if Lyanna was missing already and he hadn't learn about it yet.

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32 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Brandon was born around the time Aerys II was crowned:

While we don't know what month he was born in, all it would take is for his name day to occur after he died to be both 20 when he dueled Petyr and 20 when he died. The duel must have been longer than just a few weeks before the marriage date, because of this sequence: 

Brandon planned to be gone for at least a little while, otherwise why leave Riverrun only to come back for the wedding? It sounds like he only came down to duel Petyr some time before the wedding - apparently after his 20th name day. 

He couldn't have said the below quote after Lyanna was abducted, because Catelyn said he was on his way to Riverrun when he heard about Lyanna, and then never arrived for the wedding.

All of which makes it apparent that Brandon's wedding wasn't set for the first day of 282 AC, and that even the idea that the wedding was set for the first month of 282 AC isn't all that likely.

Brandon turned twenty some time in 282 AC, dueled Littlefinger, left Riverrun, did whatever he left Riverrun to do, was on his was back to Riverrun, heard about Lyanna and rode to King's Landing, was held in King's Landing while Rickard was summoned by Aerys and traveled to King's Landing from wherever he was, and was executed, all before his wedding was scheduled to occur.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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25 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Nobody ever thinks about Lyanna being 'missing' before hearing of her abduction, so there was nothing to worry about. Why proceed with a wedding if your daughter or sister were missing?

Well, exactly... but that’s what you proposed, isn’t it? 

Here:

IMO Lyanna got spooked after Rhaegar crowned her queen of love and beauty, because she thought he must have suspected she had something to do with the Knight of the Laughing Tree. So she took off after the tourney to hide just as Arya hid with Nymeria after throwing Joffrey's sword in the Trident, which I believe is a sort of parallel metaphor for what Lyanna did. When Cersei declares they "have a wolf" it's a parallel for when Lyanna is captured.”

Edited by kissdbyfire

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1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

 

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Arya was missing for a whopping four days:

They've found her, my lord."

Ned rose quickly. "Our men or Lannister's?"

"It was Jory," his steward Vayon Poole replied. "She's not been harmed."

"Thank the gods," Ned said. His men had been searching for Arya for four days now, but the queen's men had been out hunting as well. "Where is she? Tell Jory to bring her here at once."

- AGOT: Eddard III

I don't think the comparisons you are making hold up.

Arya is a nine year old girl, who immediately flees with her beloved direwolf after it attacks and bloodies King Robert's son and heir, hides for four days until she is discovered, and sends her direwolf away before she returns with Jory.

Lyanna was almost a woman grown (14-16), who openly fought off three squires with a tourney sword on the first day of the tourney, and remained openly present at the ten day Harrenhal Tourney for over a week after the Knight of the Laughing Tree incident on the second day of the tourney.

I just don't see Lyanna running off on her own and hiding.

Arya wasn't in Ned's presence at the time she went missing, but she had still been traveling with Ned's party the entire way from Winterfell when the incident and her disappearance occurred.

We can be certain that Lyanna wasn't in Brandon's presence at the time she was allegedly abducted, or at the time Brandon heard about her alleged abduction. But that doesn't rule out the possibility that she had been traveling with Rickard's party, a party Brandon might have joined up with after leaving Riverrun and before making his way back to Riverrun, prior to her alleged abduction.

Regarding the rest of your post, I don't see anything that supports the idea that Lyanna had gone missing or went hiding after the Harrenhal Tourney and before Brandon heard that she had been abducted.

This is while Ned is still alive. After he's beheaded Arya slips out of Kings Landing dressed as a boy named Arry. Later she's Weasel, and then Nan, before she's recognized by Harwin, the son of her father's master of horse. 

Lyanna's family weren't concerned about her whereabouts until Brandon "heard about Lyanna" on his way to marry Catelyn.

 

1 hour ago, Ser Leftwich said:

This incorrect. This is conflating 1) When Lyanna went missing, and 2) when Brandon learned, which are only related in that 1 had to have happened before 2.

Brandon could have said that to Cat, if Lyanna was missing already and he hadn't learn about it yet.

Catelyn said Brandon never arrived for the wedding. He heard about Lyanna on his way to his wedding, but went to Kings Landing instead.

 

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

All of which makes it apparent that Brandon's wedding wasn't set for the first day of 282 AC, and that even the idea that the wedding was set for the first month of 282 AC isn't all that likely.

Brandon turned twenty some time in 282 AC, dueled Littlefinger, left Riverrun, did whatever he left Riverrun to do, was on his was back to Riverrun, heard about Lyanna and rode to King's Landing, was held in King's Landing while Rickard was summoned by Aerys and traveled to King's Landing from wherever he was, and was executed, all before his wedding was scheduled to occur.

For the sake of argument let's just run an example of how his name day could work with the duel and his death.

Lets just say his 20th name day was anytime from as early as March to as late as October. He planned to attend the tourney at Harrenhal in November, but knowing of Petyr's challenge he decides to ride down a little early for the duel. After the duel he enters the lists at the tourney. After the tourney he, Ned, and Benjen head towards Riverrun and stop at the Inn of the Kneeling Man. The timing of the stop is now early December.

Meanwhile, Lyanna had left the tourney a little earlier with Howland, with plans to meet up at Riverrun in January for the wedding. They too stopped at the Inn of the Kneeling Man where Lyanna is recognized and abducted. The timing, according to the Cat of the Canals chapter, is one month after the tourney, which would be December. Brandon and his brothers would have heard about it when they too stopped at the Inn of the Kneeling Man a short time after Lyanna and Howland. Catelyn said he rode to Kings Landing instead of coming to Riverrun. Ned must have rode east to the Vale, while Benjen rode north to tell Rickard what happened.

The splitting up of the Starks is paralleled by the indecision of where to take Arya after she's recognized by Harwin, also at the Inn of the Kneeling Man. She escapes only to be abducted by Sandor, who first takes her to Riverrun, but ends up fleeing the Red Wedding - which is a parallel for Brandon's wedding to Catelyn. Certainly a lot of people died because of his failure to wed Catelyn and for Ned's successful marriage pact with the Tullys.

The next place Sandor decides to take Arya is to the Vale. He hopes that he can ransom her to her aunt. Ned must have ridden to the Vale, because it's implied he was with Jon Arryn when Jon refused to give up Ned and Robert to Aerys. All the while Arya just wants to go home to Winterfell like Benjen, and like Lyanna when she told Ned she wanted to go home to be with father and Brandon.

It works to have Brandon and Catelyn's wedding set for sometime in January. Lyanna went missing in December a month after the tourney, and Brandon was taken into custody after he rode to Kings Landing and threatened Rhaegar. The next step was for Aerys to send a raven to Rickard to come and answer for his son. It's probably a month's ride from Winterfell to Kings Landing on horseback placing Rickard's arrival in January. Time enough to execute Brandon and Rickard a few days before Brandon's wedding. 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, exactly... but that’s what you proposed, isn’t it? 

Here:

IMO Lyanna got spooked after Rhaegar crowned her queen of love and beauty, because she thought he must have suspected she had something to do with the Knight of the Laughing Tree. So she took off after the tourney to hide just as Arya hid with Nymeria after throwing Joffrey's sword in the Trident, which I believe is a sort of parallel metaphor for what Lyanna did. When Cersei declares they "have a wolf" it's a parallel for when Lyanna is captured.”

Even though I personally believe she was hiding, the timing still works even if she wasn't hiding.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

He couldn't have said the below quote after Lyanna was abducted, because Catelyn said he was on his way to Riverrun when he heard about Lyanna, and then never arrived for the wedding.

 

1 hour ago, Ser Leftwich said:

This incorrect. This is conflating 1) When Lyanna went missing, and 2) when Brandon learned, which are only related in that 1 had to have happened before 2.

Brandon could have said that to Cat, if Lyanna was missing already and he hadn't learn about it yet.

 

12 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Catelyn said Brandon never arrived for the wedding. He heard about Lyanna on his way to his wedding, but went to Kings Landing instead.

 

Are you not reading what was written? Just because Brandon promised Cat he would be back doesn't mean Lyanna wasn't already missing. All it mean is that Brandon didn't know she was missing. Those are two different things. Unless Lyanna was with Brandon at the duel, we have no idea when Brandon last interacted with Lyanna. She could already have been missing and Brandon didn't know.

When Lyanna was 'abducted' and when Brandon learned of it are two separate concepts.

This is not difficult.

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

 

 

Are you not reading what was written? Just because Brandon promised Cat he would be back doesn't mean Lyanna wasn't already missing. All it mean is that Brandon didn't know she was missing. Those are two different things. Unless Lyanna was with Brandon at the duel, we have no idea when Brandon last interacted with Lyanna. She could already have been missing and Brandon didn't know.

When Lyanna was 'abducted' and when Brandon learned of it are two separate concepts.

This is not difficult.

 

 

My reading is just fine. We shall have to agree to disagree. :cheers:

 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

For the sake of argument let's just run an example of how his name day could work with the duel and his death.

Lets just say his 20th name day was anytime from as early as March to as late as October. He planned to attend the tourney at Harrenhal in November, but knowing of Petyr's challenge he decides to ride down a little early for the duel. After the duel he enters the lists at the tourney. After the tourney he, Ned, and Benjen head towards Riverrun and stop at the Inn of the Kneeling Man. The timing of the stop is now early December.

Meanwhile, Lyanna had left the tourney a little earlier with Howland, with plans to meet up at Riverrun in January for the wedding. They too stopped at the Inn of the Kneeling Man where Lyanna is recognized and abducted. The timing, according to the Cat of the Canals chapter, is one month after the tourney, which would be December. Brandon and his brothers would have heard about it when they too stopped at the Inn of the Kneeling Man a short time after Lyanna and Howland. Catelyn said he rode to Kings Landing instead of coming to Riverrun. Ned must have rode east to the Vale, while Benjen rode north to tell Rickard what happened.

The splitting up of the Starks is paralleled by the indecision of where to take Arya after she's recognized by Harwin, also at the Inn of the Kneeling Man. She escapes only to be abducted by Sandor, who first takes her to Riverrun, but ends up fleeing the Red Wedding - which is a parallel for Brandon's wedding to Catelyn. Certainly a lot of people died because of his failure to wed Catelyn and for Ned's successful marriage pact with the Tullys.

The next place Sandor decides to take Arya is to the Vale. He hopes that he can ransom her to her aunt. Ned must have ridden to the Vale, because it's implied he was with Jon Arryn when Jon refused to give up Ned and Robert to Aerys. All the while Arya just wants to go home to Winterfell like Benjen, and like Lyanna when she told Ned she wanted to go home to be with father and Brandon.

It works to have Brandon and Catelyn's wedding set for sometime in January. Lyanna went missing in December a month after the tourney, and Brandon was taken into custody after he rode to Kings Landing and threatened Rhaegar. The next step was for Aerys to send a raven to Rickard to come and answer for his son. It's probably a month's ride from Winterfell to Kings Landing on horseback placing Rickard's arrival in January. Time enough to execute Brandon and Rickard a few days before Brandon's wedding. 

Even though I personally believe she was hiding, the timing still works even if she wasn't hiding.

@Feather Crystal

This example is not possible.

Aerys became king in 262 AC. 

Brandon was born in 262 AC.

Harrenhal was in late 281 AC.

Brandon was 20 when he dueled with Petyr.

Brandon couldn't have turned 20 before 282 AC.

Thus, Brandon would have been no older than 19 before, during, and after the Harrenhal Tourney in late 281 AC, and would have still been 19 at the coming of the new year 282 AC.

Had Brandon been born in 261 AC, then he could have been 20 at the Harrenhal Tourney, and his duel with Petyr could have occurred as early as 281 AC, whether before or after Harrenhal.

But since Brandon couldn't have turned 20 before 282 AC, his duel with Petyr at 20 could not have occurred before 282 AC, the next calendar year after the Year of the False Spring and the Harrenhal Tourney in late 281 AC.

So Brandon's duel with Petyr, and all of the events between that and his execution, must have occurred after his twentieth name day, in 282 AC, in whichever month his name day was.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

@Feather Crystal

This example is not possible.

Aerys became king in 262 AC. 

Brandon was born in 262 AC.

Harrenhal was in late 281 AC.

Brandon was 20 when he dueled with Petyr.

Brandon couldn't have turned 20 before 282 AC.

Thus, Brandon would have been no older than 19 before, during, and after the Harrenhal Tourney in late 281 AC, and would have still been 19 at the coming of the new year 282 AC.

Had Brandon been born in 261 AC, then he could have been 20 at the Harrenhal Tourney, and his duel with Petyr could have occurred as early as 281 AC, whether before or after Harrenhal.

But since Brandon couldn't have turned 20 before 282 AC, his duel with Petyr at 20 could not have occurred before 282 AC, the next calendar year after the Year of the False Spring and the Harrenhal Tourney in late 281 AC.

So Brandon's duel with Petyr, and all of the events between that and his execution, must have occurred after his twentieth name day, in 282 AC, in whichever month his name day was.

Yes, this does look problematic for more than one reason. Let me address the most pressing issue: his age. Either Catelyn is conflating his age upon death with his age during the duel, because the two events were so close together, OR the duel was after the tourney, but that creates what I see as a clumsy logistical problem. Why would Brandon be at Riverrun for the duel, then leave, telling Catelyn that they’d be getting married when he returned, and then not hear about Lyanna until he’s on his way back to Riverrun, doesn’t quite make it there, and rides to King’s Landing instead? What the hell was he doing in the meantime? It’s not like Winterfell and Riverrun are close together. 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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There was at least half a year between the tourney of Harrenhal and Lyanna's "abduction". Why? Because in none of the descriptions is Elia's pregnancy mentioned. She was either not yet pregnant or in the early stages, not yet obviously showing. Lyanna's "abduction" happened only after the birth of Prince Aegon, however.

Nor does it make any sense that the Starks would have been Ok with her going into hiding alone with some dude whom they have just met. That's how noblewomen's reputations get ruined. Also, if she was so terrified that she thought that she needed to go into hiding for more than half a year, why would she then plan to appear in public at Brandon's wedding? This would defeat the purpose. She should have just discreetly gone back north and stayed there.

Concerning the OP, I doubt that Lyanna would have enjoyed quite as much freedom on a journey as a pre-pubescent Arya had. Nor is it clear to me that she returned to the North after the tourney. Further, if Rickard was travelling with his children, wouldn't he have tried to intercept Brandon?

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