Minimum marriage age and age of consent in Westeros

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

I think one of the worst fathers when it comes to marriages is Rickard Karstark. He promises Alys' hand to any man who can capture Jaime Lannister and Vargo Hoat, a limb-taking sadist and rapist, tries to cash in. Does Rickard want his daughter to be tortured and raped? I thought he cared about his children.

Rickard loved his sons. His daughter not so much. That's not exceptional. Robb didn't care much about Sansa, either, as is made pretty clear in ASoS.

And girls are often used as coin to bind powerful men to you, or give men you needed or thought you needed a reward. 

56 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I wonder how Barbrey managed to keep her husband's estate in such a manner. I've theorized that she's a badass and fought people off; just look at Donella Hornwood, widowed early in the War of the Five Kings, captured, raped, ate her fingers in a vain attempt to keep alive long enough for rescue. Why she wasn't protected well enough leaving the Harvest Feast of Winterfell...

Barbrey just laid claim to Barrowton and Lord Eddard, perhaps because he felt guilty because of the death of Lord Willam, granted her request. There certainly must be some distant Dustin cousins around, although likely not through the male line, but their claims apparently were dismissed.

There is no need to imagine there was any sort of struggle there, even less so considering how well-connected Lady Barbrey was - her Ryswell kin were her neighbors, and her sister was actually Lady Bolton. Some Dustin cousins sitting in some keeps in the middle of nowhere with neither funds nor men sufficient to actually challenge her and her men in Barrowton explains how things went the way they did.

But it would have been necessary for Winterfell and/or the Iron Throne to confirm her in her lordship, or else she would merely be self-styled, like Robert was only Warden of the East in Lysa's mind until Joffrey actually restored that honor to him.

[Vaith]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, but it is rather easy to rape a young child, isn't it? Tyrek is Ermesande's husband, whether she wants it or not. She won't be able to prevent a consummation of that marriage, and the Hayford folks actually seem to be worried that 'Lord Tyrek' is gone, so they won't feed her the idea that the guy isn't her husband.

And why is this necessary? While Tywin is an awful person, there was never any indication that there was consummation between Tyrek and the infant?

The concern I was raising is that vows said at sword point are not valid, and vows need to be said. Lady Hayford is not old enough, so the whole affair seems dodgy from the start since she is not old enough to speak.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, my impression is that there is just a difference between a slut/whore and rape in extramarital sex. Women who are neither married nor betrothed or already widows are sluts who fornicate, and those who sleep around while in a marriage or betrothal are raped, no matter whether they are of the opinion that they are raped or not.

Their (male) family (members) will decide what happened, their own opinion is pretty much irrelevant because women are not allowed their own romantic or sexual identity/agenda.

We have the example of Dareon who had extramarital sex with Lord Rowan's daughter who decried it as rape, so I wouldn't really simplify things. I cast doubt that there's no discrepancy at all given how First Night is an illegal practice, and when it was not, lords like Gargon the Guest were reviled for it. So if people in Westeros can comprehend it is not okay for this to happen to a woman of the smallfolk, I doubt there is always a complete disregarding of what the woman thinks.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but it is reinforced again and again that the way Donella and Sansa (and later Jeyne) are treated is more or less okay. Rodrik makes it clear that Roose now has a claim to the Hornwood lands thanks to the public wedding and consummated marriage of his bastard and Donella. That means that the majority opinion seems to be that marriages made under duress or by force are not, in principle, invalid.

Again, I cast doubt on what the Lannister and Boltons are doing in the time of the main series is the way that things are universally accepted. The series is a time of great upheaval, flimsy usurpations, and cruel characters. Their supporters have reason to accept things as they are, but that doesn't mean that everyone would be okay with such violations of power.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Technically, it seems a castallan cannot really arrange marriages for you. That should do a proper guardian. Ser Rodrik or Arnolf Karstark don't have the right to arrange marriages for the Stark and Karstark children. In that sense, the marriage contract between Viserys III and Doran Martell done by Willem Darry and Oberyn Martell is also not really binding to either Viserys III or Dany because neither of them were actually actively involved in any of that, or had Darry given authority to arrange such matters in their name.

I was speaking in a scenario where the castellan is regent. If you are truly the last of your line or with no available family members and the other household members and your overlord approves of the castellan being the regent, I imagine such a thing is okay.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, you have to contrast that with those ruling ladies where there is a husband. Take, for instance, Lollys Stokeworth whose husband now presumes to call himself 'Lord Stokeworth'. There you see where the true power lies.

I'm not saying that all ruling ladies have to be under the thumb of their lord husbands, but there should be such a tendency. Women in this world are not brought up to rule over men, and in those cases where a man is stuck with a female heir he might actually choose a husband for her which he thinks can effectively serve as a male heir, or at least as a protector or guardian for his daughter.

There is a reason why rather prominent and powerful female rulers did not marry or remarry, like Barbrey Dustin and Jeyne Arryn.

Widows ruling as regents for the sons can and did do that, e.g. Elenda Baratheon or Lysa Arryn, but they are not in the situation that they wield power in their own right - and thus their husbands cannot really usurp that power completely. It is different with women ruling in their own right.

Think of Lady Rohanne's fear.

Middle-aged/older women with heirs of their own, or women who ruled as ladies in their own right for quite some time before they (re)marry can likely protect themselves pretty well against a power grab by their husband - if they know how power and politics work. After all, they would be the ones choosing their husbands, if everything worked fine, and they certainly would have had the time to surround themselves with men they could trust.

But it would still be men. It is difficult to say whether the husband could slowly but surely win the loyalty of all those men to his side.

Lollys is a lackwit, though, and Bronn is not really your typical figure -- exceedingly ambitious, and exploiting the sudden deaths of Tanda and (if certain fan theorists are right) Lord Rosby, to cement power. 

If we did know the identities of the husbands of women like Arwyn, Maege, and Anya, then I think that would be fair to see what is typical. Tyrek and Bronn don't seem to be your standard male consorts due to the circumstances of the War of Five Kings.

I just think if it's a given that the man will usually take control, then why does Arys not think of a father who ran the place instead of admiring the strength of his mother Arwyn? And since both Arwyn Oakheart and Anya Waynwood have adult sons, why are they not the ones managing the things? 

Rohanne is also characterised by 1. her father's will with a clause saying she must be married and 2. the attacks from Ironborn, the Spring Sickness and the somewhat undefended nature of the petty lordships. I just feel that for ladies like Anya and Arwyn it will be a different thing. 

And I also wouldn't say that the husband certainly has to be an ambitious figure 100% of the time.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Vaith said:

And why is this necessary? While Tywin is an awful person, there was never any indication that there was consummation between Tyrek and the infant?

Oh, no, not consummation with the infant. That wouldn't happen, and hopefully not only because it was physically impossible. I meant consummation as soon as it was technically possible and 'Lord Tyrek' wanted to do it. A, say, 5-10-year-old Ermesande wouldn't be able to prevent Tyrek from fucking her. Even a 12-year-old Ermesande, being brought up to see herself as Tyrek's obedient wife, looking up to him as both a father and a husband, would hardly be in a position to reject him.

3 minutes ago, Vaith said:

The concern I was raising is that vows said at sword point are not valid, and vows need to be said. Lady Hayford is not old enough, so the whole affair seems dodgy from the start since she is not old enough to speak.

King Euron married Asha by proxy to Erik Ironmaker, assuming that this kind of thing can happen. The marriage between Ermesande and Tyrek should have a similar quality. Sure, up until the moment of consummation it could be set aside, but Ermesande is not in a position to do that.

3 minutes ago, Vaith said:

We have the example of Dareon who had extramarital sex with Lord Rowan's daughter who decried it as rape, so I wouldn't really simplify things. I cast doubt that there's no discrepancy at all given how First Night is an illegal practice, and when it was not, lords like Gargon the Guest were reviled for it. So if people in Westeros can comprehend it is not okay for this to happen to a woman of the smallfolk, I doubt there is always a complete disregarding of what the woman thinks.

There are certainly different dynamics there when we talk about nobles fucking commoners. The idea is that a noblewoman betrothed or married to a nobleman having an affair with another nobleman (or a prince or king) is not going to be seen as having an affair by her family/husband unless she is doing that with their consent or at their behest.

The best example for this kind of thing is Lyanna.

3 minutes ago, Vaith said:

Again, I cast doubt on what the Lannister and Boltons are doing in the time of the main series is the way that things are universally accepted. The series is a time of great upheaval, flimsy usurpations, and cruel characters. Their supporters have reason to accept things as they are, but that doesn't mean that everyone would be okay with such violations of power.

There is not really war in the North at the time Rodrik says that. And he says that with there actually being a new King in the North who should technically have more power than a mere lord over his bannermen. Yet he doesn't give the impression Robb could just declare the marriage and any claims derived from the marriage to be invalid due the way the marriage was made.

3 minutes ago, Vaith said:

I was speaking in a scenario where the castellan is regent. If you are truly the last of your line or with no available family members and the other household members and your overlord approves of the castellan being the regent, I imagine such a thing is okay.

Well, I guess then you would actually become a ward of the crown. It makes little sense to assume that some officials of the dead lord just can decided to do what they want with the child(ren) of their late lord. At least in a peaceful setting.

3 minutes ago, Vaith said:

Lollys is a lackwit, though, and Bronn is not really your typical figure -- exceedingly ambitious, and exploiting the sudden deaths of Tanda and (if certain fan theorists are right) Lord Rosby, to cement power. 

Lollys is not the sharpest knife in the box, but we don't get strong hints that she is a proper lackwit. She is deeply traumatized after the rapes.

Bronn does what any husband in his position could do - hiring sellswords who are loyal to him. Apparently he has the coin to do that.

3 minutes ago, Vaith said:

If we did know the identities of the husbands of women like Arwyn, Maege, and Anya, then I think that would be fair to see what is typical. Tyrek and Bronn don't seem to be your standard male consorts due to the circumstances of the War of Five Kings.

Sure, but it doesn't strike me as unlikely that various versions of 'the Bronn way' were possible for various husbands of female heirs and rulers.

3 minutes ago, Vaith said:

I just think if it's a given that the man will usually take control, then why does Arys not think of a father who ran the place instead of admiring the strength of his mother Arwyn? And since both Arwyn Oakheart and Anya Waynwood have adult sons, why are they not the ones managing the things? 

One assumes that 'Lord Oakheart' died so early that Arys doesn't really remember the guy. It is quite clear that Lady Arwyn does have teeth.

Lady Anya is the ruler of domains, and her sons are her sons. It is not surprising that they do not try to depose the mother who gave birth to them and who brought them up. Love and affection is most more likely to be present in such a relationship than in an arranged marriage - even more so in an arranged marriage where the man was just desiring the power his wife could offer him.

3 minutes ago, Vaith said:

Rohanne is also characterised by 1. her father's will with a clause saying she must be married and 2. the attacks from Ironborn, the Spring Sickness and the somewhat undefended nature of the petty lordships. I just feel that for ladies like Anya and Arwyn it will be a different thing.

Rohanne's fear has nothing to do with the Ironborn (they don't seem to threaten her lands directly). It is clearly increased by the terms of her father's will but it seems to me that this kind of fear must be pretty real in many a ruling lady, especially such who just inherited the title because of some accident.

A lord having only daughters and making his peace with that, say, twenty years before his eventual death, may certainly properly groom and prepare her for her days as a ruling lady, but such girls/women who come into power by accident may be in more precarious positions.

3 minutes ago, Vaith said:

And I also wouldn't say that the husband certainly has to be an ambitious figure 100% of the time.

Of course not. Even as ambitious a man - in his youth at least - as Daemon Targaryen never actually got around to dominate or control the reign of his wife. It is just about a tendency.

[Vaith]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, no, not consummation with the infant. That wouldn't happen, and hopefully not only because it was physically impossible. I meant consummation as soon as it was technically possible and 'Lord Tyrek' wanted to do it. A, say, 5-10-year-old Ermesande wouldn't be able to prevent Tyrek from fucking her. Even a 12-year-old Ermesande, being brought up to see herself as Tyrek's obedient wife, looking up to him as both a father and a husband, would hardly be in a position to reject him.

King Euron married Asha by proxy to Erik Ironmaker, assuming that this kind of thing can happen. The marriage between Ermesande and Tyrek should have a similar quality. Sure, up until the moment of consummation it could be set aside, but Ermesande is not in a position to do that.

I think that just because the Hayfords accept Tyrek as their lord, does not mean they would not think that such a thing would be abhorrent before menarche.

Neither Euron, Asha, nor Erik Ironmaker follow the Seven, so I imagine it is justifiable in the context of Drowned God worshippers.

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is not really war in the North at the time Rodrik says that. And he says that with there actually being a new King in the North who should technically have more power than a mere lord over his bannermen. Yet he doesn't give the impression Robb could just declare the marriage and any claims derived from the marriage to be invalid due the way the marriage was made.

It's treated as something to make a claim stick, sure, but I don't think that everyone thought that Ramsay was unequivocally the true lord of Hornwood, or that what he did to Donella was fine.

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Lollys is not the sharpest knife in the box, but we don't get strong hints that she is a proper lackwit. She is deeply traumatized after the rapes.

Bronn does what any husband in his position could do - hiring sellswords who are loyal to him. Apparently he has the coin to do that.

Sure, but it doesn't strike me as unlikely that various versions of 'the Bronn way' were possible for various husbands of female heirs and rulers.

Lollys only has a few actual lines, and just because she can talk properly, that doesn't mean that she doesn't have learning disabilities that would make those in Westeros consider her a lackwit. Regardless, whether it's trauma or learning disabilities, she has no reason to stick up for herself like anyone might.

Sellswords themselves are really a rather Essosi thing. Yeah, the option would be on the table, but I don't think it's so accessible for a husband in the middle of the westerlands versus a lordship close to King's Landing during one of the craziest wars in Westerosi history.

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

One assumes that 'Lord Oakheart' died so early that Arys doesn't really remember the guy. It is quite clear that Lady Arwyn does have teeth.

Or it could be that he never had much power and that Arys thinks of his primary parent who had responsibility in the household. Neither Aeron nor Victarion ever think of their mother, for instance. 

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Lady Anya is the ruler of domains, and her sons are her sons. It is not surprising that they do not try to depose the mother who gave birth to them and who brought them up. Love and affection is most more likely to be present in such a relationship than in an arranged marriage - even more so in an arranged marriage where the man was just desiring the power his wife could offer him.

I just don't think it's hinted that either of them were ever constrained by a husband, and I just don't think this can be considered a norm in the rare instances of female succession.

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Rohanne's fear has nothing to do with the Ironborn (they don't seem to threaten her lands directly). It is clearly increased by the terms of her father's will but it seems to me that this kind of fear must be pretty real in many a ruling lady, especially such who just inherited the title because of some accident.

A lord having only daughters and making his peace with that, say, twenty years before his eventual death, may certainly properly groom and prepare her for her days as a ruling lady, but such girls/women who come into power by accident may be in more precarious positions.

Of course not. Even as ambitious a man - in his youth at least - as Daemon Targaryen never actually got around to dominate or control the reign of his wife. It is just about a tendency.

Sure, but 211 is a particularly unstable time in Westeros. I doubt such a threat would be present for a lady who could command a good few levies, such as a sudden Lady Redfort with a good garrison to protect her and so forth.

I am just wary of a characterisation of Westerosi history as everyone being as conniving as possible, since there are awfully few dynastic changes in millenia aside from the large migrations, Aegon's conquest, and the War of the Five Kings.