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Platypus Rex

Poll: Is Quentyn, Called 'Frog', Still Alive?

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On 2/20/2019 at 6:05 AM, Lollygag said:

The Weeknd's Can't Feel My Face is heavy with disco funk riffs and the video has lots of 70s call outs including that disco ball. 

Definite Quentyn vibe there :D

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15 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Question for the OP:  Do you consider Varamyr and Orell still alive?

Interesting question.  I guess I'd have to say "no".  I would say that a "second life" is a form of spiritual survival analogous to reincarnation.  Does not change the fact that they did in fact die.

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10 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Interesting question.  I guess I'd have to say "no".  I would say that a "second life" is a form of spiritual survival analogous to reincarnation.  Does not change the fact that they did in fact die.

In that case, I’d have to say dead.  Although I believe it’s possible that his spirit/psyche/consciousness may have been transferred into one of the dragons.  In other words, turn the tale of the frog prince on its head.  Rhaegal’s Kiss of fire may have started the process of the transfer, and Quentyn was in fact transformed by the kiss into a dragon.

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

In that case, I’d have to say dead.  Although I believe it’s possible that his spirit/psyche/consciousness may have been transferred into one of the dragons.  In other words, turn the tale of the frog prince on its head.  Rhaegal’s Kiss of fire may have started the process of the transfer, and Quentyn was in fact transformed by the kiss into a dragon.

As in, the dragons are collectors of souls? Specifically the souls they took from the living themselves? Stealers?

(I am sure there is a football joke in here somewhere?)

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Serious question to the yessers in this topic? What do you see as the literary purpose of having Quent burn to only be alive? Is it political? I can't see this being the case because either way, living and useless or dead and useless, Dorne will be pissed. Arianne, eh, maybe she won't be as pissed, seeing as how she's going to mount a real dragon fairly soon.

To me, Quent's time has ended. His mission was to break  the chains of the two underdeveloped dragons held down in the pit so that they can fly free, eat and eat some more, allowing them to grow larger, sit on top of the pyramids awaiting their Bakkalon mother to return. Maybe Tyrion will get to "handle" one enough that he can create saddles for these dragons, to give these swords a hilt (control).

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1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Serious question to the yessers in this topic? What do you see as the literary purpose of having Quent burn to only be alive? Is it political? I can't see this being the case because either way, living and useless or dead and useless, Dorne will be pissed. Arianne, eh, maybe she won't be as pissed, seeing as how she's going to mount a real dragon fairly soon.

Okay, Quent is useless. When word gets back to Dorne, as in when Barry sends the bones back, Dorne is gonna be mad why?

Which dragon is Arianne gonna mount? Are you talking about Jon Con's Aegon?

Gotta love martin's words ---- dragon, a actual flame throwing beast or a two legged Targ.

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

To me, Quent's time has ended. His mission was to break  the chains of the two underdeveloped dragons held down in the pit so that they can fly free, eat and eat some more, allowing them to grow larger, sit on top of the pyramids awaiting their Bakkalon mother to return. Maybe Tyrion will get to "handle" one enough that he can create saddles for these dragons, to give these swords a hilt (control).

I agree somewhat.

Quent was a catalyst to free the two dragons from the bowels of the pyramid. Now the two are free range and living in their separate hidey holes avoiding the rain.

Help me out. I dunna know where Bakkalon, the Pale Child, fits.

I am curious did WOIAF or F&B mention whether dragon riders used saddles?

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On 2/16/2019 at 1:04 AM, Platypus Rex said:

Is the guy we know as Quentyn Martell, called 'Frog', still alive at the close of A DANCE WITH DRAGONS?

Definitely dead.

It has supernatural significance. It's a move on destiny's cyvasse board: Hizdar of the icy cock is knocked out of Dany's bed, and is replaced by this incredibly burnt dead guy.

Which of course is a terrifically good omen for anyone who wants normal life and death and warmth to continue. :)

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3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Serious question to the yessers in this topic? What do you see as the literary purpose of having Quent burn to only be alive?

My original answer was "I don't know", more or less.  I had no desire for him to be alive, nor any idea of its purpose.  As far as I could see I was merely following the evidence.  (Yeah, I know.  "What evidence?")  It still amazes me that you can point out the perfect setup for a death fake-out, and have it just bounce off people's heads.  Such circumstances do not arise without careful planning by an author.

And of course, the dragons probably need riders before the story can progress to Westeros

Much later, I cane across much more specific idea of its purpose.  But I think I told you about that already.  Anyway, that's a whole other unpopular theory, or series of unpopular theories.  So here's going WAY out on a limb:  Frog is the real baby Aegon; swapped with Young Griff, who is the real Quentyn, Doran plots to put his son on the throne, in place of his nephew, with the help of his wife Mellario (Lemore) his father-in law, Illyrio, his mother-in-law Serra Blackfyre (Varys), and the Golden Company.  Or something like that.

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2 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

My original answer was "I don't know", more or less.  I had no desire for him to be alive, nor any idea of its purpose.  As far as I could see I was merely following the evidence.  (Yeah, I know.  "What evidence?")  It still amazes me that you can point out the perfect setup for a death fake-out, and have it just bounce off people's heads.  Such circumstances do not arise without careful planning by an author.

And of course, the dragons probably need riders before the story can progress to Westeros

Thanks for explaining :thumbsup:

2 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Much later, I cane across much more specific idea of its purpose.  But I think I told you about that already.  Anyway, that's a whole other unpopular theory, or series of unpopular theories (Frog is the real baby Aegon; swapped with Young Griff, who is the real Quentyn, Doran plots to put his son on the throne, in place of his nephew, with the help of his wife Mellario (Lemore) his father-in law, Illyrio, his mother-in-law Serra Blackfyre (Varys), and the Golden Company.  Or something like that).

Wait, this seems familiar. Was it you who put this theory out on this forum months ago? I could be mixing theories up, but this seems familiar now that you mention it.

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23 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Serious question to the yessers in this topic? What do you see as the literary purpose of having Quent burn to only be alive? Is it political? I can't see this being the case because either way, living and useless or dead and useless, Dorne will be pissed. Arianne, eh, maybe she won't be as pissed, seeing as how she's going to mount a real dragon fairly soon.

To me, Quent's time has ended. His mission was to break  the chains of the two underdeveloped dragons held down in the pit so that they can fly free, eat and eat some more, allowing them to grow larger, sit on top of the pyramids awaiting their Bakkalon mother to return. Maybe Tyrion will get to "handle" one enough that he can create saddles for these dragons, to give these swords a hilt (control).

Who knows where his literary purpose might take him? From a literary perspective, it seems kind of pointless to have his whole story unfold only to have him die a useless death. His mission was not to break the chains of two dragons, but to bring them back to Dorne. The dragons had already broken their own chains, and there were all sorts of ways they could have gotten free.

You could make all those same arguments for the Hound at the end of Storm: his purpose was done, he can't do anything more for Arya; he's a hunted, wanted man; and even his brother whom he vowed to kill is dead. Over and done with, until . . .

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46 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Who knows where his literary purpose might take him? From a literary perspective, it seems kind of pointless to have his whole story unfold only to have him die a useless death. His mission was not to break the chains of two dragons, but to bring them back to Dorne. The dragons had already broken their own chains, and there were all sorts of ways they could have gotten free.

Just a quick reply for now because I’m runnjnh errands, but to clarify what I mean  earlier is that Quent’s mission, as in his literary purpose, was to release the dragons. Mission accomplished in the most fire and blood way he could. 

46 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

You could make all those same arguments for the Hound at the end of Storm: his purpose was done, he can't do anything more for Arya; he's a hunted, wanted man; and even his brother whom he vowed to kill is dead. Over and done with, until . . .

Eh, the Hounds purpose has more to do with Sansa and maybe the Starks in a larger scheme, so while his time with Arya as puppysitter was great, it was just a step to the bigger picture. 

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On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 11:34 AM, Frey family reunion said:

In that case, I’d have to say dead.  Although I believe it’s possible that his spirit/psyche/consciousness may have been transferred into one of the dragons.  In other words, turn the tale of the frog prince on its head.  Rhaegal’s Kiss of fire may have started the process of the transfer, and Quentyn was in fact transformed by the kiss into a dragon.

The "second life" thing is surely going somewhere.  But if I were to pick anyone who is being set up to live a second life as a dragon, I think it would be Tyrion, with his draconic dreams, his love of bacon burnt black, his dreams of burning family alive, and possible connection with the Norse myth of Fafnir, the greedy father-slaying Dwarf who transformed into a dragon.

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Second life is reserved for skinchangers. Orell and his eagle, Hagon and his wolf before Varamyr pushed him out, Varamyr and One-Eye, Jon and his siblings with their direwolves, the children of the forest and their animals.

There is absolutely nothing in the text or in his POV that indicates that Quentyn was a skinchanger and Tyrion having dreamed of dragons when he was a boy doesn't make him a skinchanger either. Dreams are dreams and "animal" dreams are "animal" dreams. 

When the Stark children enter the minds of their wolves, and have their wolf dreams, we know it every time and we see it. 

And so far, skinchanging seems to be inherited in people who are predominantly of First Men blood, which is not Quentyn's case. 

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4 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

There is absolutely nothing in the text or in his POV that indicates that Quentyn was a skinchanger

I agree,

Appears to me when a skin changer's animal dies the skin changer feels the death.

40 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

The "second life" thing is surely going somewhere. 

Guess it depends on "true death.'

 

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On 2/23/2019 at 12:02 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

As in, the dragons are collectors of souls? Specifically the souls they took from the living themselves? Stealers?

(I am sure there is a football joke in here somewhere?)

More to do with what I suspect Quentyn’s bloodlines may be, combined with the trauma of the burning.  Think of Bran as a comparison.  Bran’s bloodlines are apparently significant, but his third eye doesn’t open until the trauma of his fall and his subsequent coma.  Fast forward to ADWD, where we have Quentyn spend a surprisingly substantial amount of time on his death bed until he actually dies.  And I find it interesting that Missendei, the scribe,  is the one who watches over him and even speaks with him during this time:

Quote

Missandei sat at the bedside. She had been with the prince night and day, tending to such needs as he could express, giving him water and milk of the poppy when he was strong enough to drink, listening to the few tortured words he gasped out from time to time, reading to him when he fell quiet, sleeping in her chair beside him.

Perhaps she serves a similar role to Jojen’s role with Bran.  

15 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

The "second life" thing is surely going somewhere.  But if I were to pick anyone who is being set up to live a second life as a dragon, I think it would be Tyrion, with his draconic dreams, his love of bacon burnt black, his dreams of burning family alive, and possible connection with the Norse myth of Fafnir, the greedy father-slaying Dwarf who transformed into a dragon.

I definitely think Tyrion’s consciousness may enter one or more dragons, might be a clever bit of foreshadowing here:

Quote

“You have to catch me.” Her voice came from his left. “M’lord must have played monsters and maidens when he was little.” “Are you calling me a monster?” “No more than I’m a maiden.”

She was behind him, her steps soft against the floor. “You need to catch me all the same.”

He did, finally, but only because she let herself be caught. By the time she slipped into his arms, he was flushed and out of breath from stumbling into dragon skulls.

But that doesn’t mean he’s going to be the only one.  After all the dragon has three heads.

My suspicion that Quentyn may be one of those three heads is linked to my suspicion that Quentyn may in reality be Aegon.  The amount of real estate that GRRM gave Quentyn in ADWD is very unusual considering the apparent conclusion of his story arc.  And I’ve yet to hear any theories about Quentyn that would justifying the length of his story.  So either GRRM just wasted the readers time, or there is something going on behind the scenes that we don’t know about yet.

So in the book that introduces us to an alleged Aegon, it wouldn’t surprise me that we’re given the actual Aegon in the same book.

Quote

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.”

Quote

“Gerris chuckled. “Dragons are not made of wood, Arch.”
“Some are. That old King Aegon, the randy one, he built wooden dragons to conquer us. That ended bad, though.”
So may this, the prince thought. The follies and failures of Aegon the Unworthy did not concern him, but he was full of doubts and misgivings. The labored banter of his friends was only making his head ache. They do not understand. They may be Dornish, but I am Dorne. Years from now, when I am dead, this will be the song they sing of me. He rose abruptly. “It’s time.”

Then GRRM hits us over the head with the tale of the Frog Prince.

Quote

“They call him frog,” she said, “and we have just learned why. In the Seven Kingdoms there are children’s tales of frogs who turn into enchanted princes when kissed by their true love.” Smiling at the Dornish knights, she switched back to the Common Tongue. “Tell me, Prince Quentyn, are you enchanted?”

And as we learn, Quentyn isn’t really there for Dany, he’s there to steal a dragon, his true love.  And that’s who he gets his kiss from:

Quote

Green, the prince thought, his scales are green.  “Rhaegal,” he said.  His voice caught in his throat, and what came out was a broken croak.  Frog, he thought, I am turning into Frog again.  “The food,” he croaked remembering.  “Bring the food.”

Quote

Gerris was calling out his name, over and over, and the big man was bellowing, “Behind you, behind you, behind you!”

Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal.

When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning.

Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream.

So in true GRRM fashion, we may have been given the Frog Prince tale, but just not in the way we expected.  The kiss and subsequent transformation comes from a kiss of fire by Rhaegal, perhaps triggering the trauma needed for Quentyn’s third eye to open, ultimately allowing for his psyche to enter into one of the dragons at the time of his death.

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23 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Just a quick reply for now because I’m runnjnh errands, but to clarify what I mean  earlier is that Quent’s mission, as in his literary purpose, was to release the dragons. Mission accomplished in the most fire and blood way he could. 

Eh, the Hounds purpose has more to do with Sansa and maybe the Starks in a larger scheme, so while his time with Arya as puppysitter was great, it was just a step to the bigger picture. 

OK, well, you could say Quentyn's purpose is to do more than just release the dragons but bring them back to Dorne where they will influence the larger scheme of the coming war in Westeros. We don't know what is coming in the last two books, so how can you so blithely declare that you know for a fact that Quent's mission is accomplished and that, just like the Hound, his story so far is not a step to the bigger picture as well?

Couple that with the fact that the man was blasted by dragon fire but didn't notice until he actually saw himself burning, and I'd say this is another classic Martin fake-death, just like he's done at the end of every story so far.

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22 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Second life is reserved for skinchangers. Orell and his eagle, Hagon and his wolf before Varamyr pushed him out, Varamyr and One-Eye, Jon and his siblings with their direwolves, the children of the forest and their animals.

There is absolutely nothing in the text or in his POV that indicates that Quentyn was a skinchanger and Tyrion having dreamed of dragons when he was a boy doesn't make him a skinchanger either. Dreams are dreams and "animal" dreams are "animal" dreams. 

When the Stark children enter the minds of their wolves, and have their wolf dreams, we know it every time and we see it. 

And so far, skinchanging seems to be inherited in people who are predominantly of First Men blood, which is not Quentyn's case. 

I very much doubt that ordinary skinchangers could skin-change a dragon.  I suspect any who attempted it would go mad, as Varymir did, when the eagle he was warged caught fire.  Possibly, warging dragons would require special heritage and/or special magics.  The dragonbinder horn, for instance, might be involved somehow.

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Hmm i'm kind of in between on this one. While the Dornish all have Black hair and dark eyes, Quentyn has brown hair and brown eyes. "The seed is strong". He also has a broad nose, and a square jaw where Oberyn has a sharp nose. Quentyn doesn't seem to fit the traditional Dornish look. I'm open to the idea of the real Quentyn being in Norvos or Volantis but if I had to choose.

Quentyn is dead.

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