Heredity laws of westeros

[MaxwellBridge03]

I was wondering how does heredity of noble titles and lands work in westeros. Because after Jon Arryn is dead, and seeing that Robert Arryn is very weak, the lords of the vale consider marrying Lysa Arryn to someone so she can give a strong heir to the vale. But how could that be, considering she has no arryn blood and not even vale blood as she is from the riverlands?

[Vaith]

Could be misremembering, but I don't think the heir thing is ever mentioned. It seems to be that the pressure for Lysa to marry is just so that the new husband can act as regent.

In any case, no, I really don't think that a half-sibling with no Arryn blood would be considered an heir. After all, that's why Harry the Heir is so important...

[The hairy bear]

Yes, it was never suggested that they were looking for Robert's substitute. Lysa had many suitors because that would give them the regency, and their children would become influential as the half-siblings of the future lord of the Vale.

[Seaserpent]

Regentship is till Robin comes of age, but the thing i never understand is what is going to happen if robin dies. Will the arryn name vanissh or will it be Harry Arryn?

[The Commentator]

2 hours ago, Seaserpent said:

Regentship is till Robin comes of age, but the thing i never understand is what is going to happen if robin dies. Will the arryn name vanissh or will it be Harry Arryn?

It will vanish.  Our author went through great lengths to tell us about the Mudds, Barrow Kings, Gardeners.  Dead people.  Dead families.  A family and all it ever stood for can vanish.  Nothing is permanent.  

[Seaserpent]

3 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

It will vanish.  Our author went through great lengths to tell us about the Mudds, Barrow Kings, Gardeners.  Dead people.  Dead families.  A family and all it ever stood for can vanish.  Nothing is permanent.  

Yes but that were families that vanished in one day for example. But what if Sansa is lady of winterfell and has no siblings and she marries a Ryswell and they got a child who inherit Winterfell, will he has the Stark or Ryswell name in the end? We see it happen with Ramsey and fake Arya, but what if she is crowned rightfull lady of Winterfell by the king? House hardyng will rule the Vale for coming centuries you think?

[Dofs]

58 minutes ago, Seaserpent said:

Yes but that were families that vanished in one day for example. But what if Sansa is lady of winterfell and has no siblings and she marries a Ryswell and they got a child who inherit Winterfell, will he has the Stark or Ryswell name in the end? We see it happen with Ramsey and fake Arya, but what if she is crowned rightfull lady of Winterfell by the king? House hardyng will rule the Vale for coming centuries you think?

I've always assumed that the name is attached to the lands and holdings unless it's taken away by conquest or by king's/higher lord's decree. Hence if Sansa's son will want to get Winterfell, he will have to get the name Stark no matter what. Even Ryswell himself might take the Stark name upon marrying Sansa, unless he himself is a lord or heir of his own House.

4 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

It will vanish.  Our author went through great lengths to tell us about the Mudds, Barrow Kings, Gardeners.  Dead people.  Dead families.  A family and all it ever stood for can vanish.  Nothing is permanent.  

It won't vanish, Harry Hardyng will become Harry Arryn because the Vale belongs to Arryns, not Hardyngs.

[nyser1]

I was under the impression that it had to do with gaining power and spreading influence through power as Acting Lord of the Vale.

[The Commentator]

19 hours ago, Seaserpent said:

Yes but that were families that vanished in one day for example. But what if Sansa is lady of winterfell and has no siblings and she marries a Ryswell and they got a child who inherit Winterfell, will he has the Stark or Ryswell name in the end? We see it happen with Ramsey and fake Arya, but what if she is crowned rightfull lady of Winterfell by the king? House hardyng will rule the Vale for coming centuries you think?

I was saying that no family name is safe.  The lands and property will remain.  To be owned by somebody who may not have any blood relations.  I was thinking long-term.  But sure, in the case you present, sure it can happen like that.  The stronger name will continue.  Should the Starks come out on top again, sure.  Though I would think there will remain the stain of rebellion on the Starks their name could lose prestige.  The Ryswell name would carry more weight in this hypothetical scenario.  

[Seaserpent]

19 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I was saying that no family name is safe.  The lands and property will remain.  To be owned by somebody who may not have any blood relations.  I was thinking long-term.  But sure, in the case you present, sure it can happen like that.  The stronger name will continue.  Should the Starks come out on top again, sure.  Though I would think there will remain the stain of rebellion on the Starks their name could lose prestige.  The Ryswell name would carry more weight in this hypothetical scenario.  

Its all difficult, because many houses in Westeros think that they come 2nd or 3rd. I can imagine the dustins that they should be overlords in the case Ryswell or Bolton are going to be high lords or kings. If the Tyrells Vanish its even more difficult who is going to inherit the Reach. In the Riverlands, before Hoare was the ruler it was a total chaos of who was going to rule the whole region. 

If the Starks die out the North has a big problem, because there is no respect for the Boltons at all, they even conspire in Roose his own hall. Manderly cannot rule because its a southern house, but has a lot of power and houses in his domain. Likely the North would chatter in some big pieces likely. SO all parties would only come together under a Stark-name, maybe a Kastark in the end!? 

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

11 hours ago, Seaserpent said:

Its all difficult, because many houses in Westeros think that they come 2nd or 3rd. I can imagine the dustins that they should be overlords in the case Ryswell or Bolton are going to be high lords or kings. If the Tyrells Vanish its even more difficult who is going to inherit the Reach. In the Riverlands, before Hoare was the ruler it was a total chaos of who was going to rule the whole region. 

If the Starks die out the North has a big problem, because there is no respect for the Boltons at all, they even conspire in Roose his own hall. Manderly cannot rule because its a southern house, but has a lot of power and houses in his domain. Likely the North would chatter in some big pieces likely. SO all parties would only come together under a Stark-name, maybe a Kastark in the end!? 

As Catelyn Stark was trying to dissuade Rob from legitimizing Jon, she mentions that there were Stark cousins in the Vale and elsewhere who could lay claim to the name.  Just as we see in the Vale with Harrold Hardyng, the next offshoot from the Stark branch would be the rightful heir.  

[The Commentator]

On 2/23/2019 at 7:54 AM, Seaserpent said:

Its all difficult, because many houses in Westeros think that they come 2nd or 3rd. I can imagine the dustins that they should be overlords in the case Ryswell or Bolton are going to be high lords or kings. If the Tyrells Vanish its even more difficult who is going to inherit the Reach. In the Riverlands, before Hoare was the ruler it was a total chaos of who was going to rule the whole region. 

If the Starks die out the North has a big problem, because there is no respect for the Boltons at all, they even conspire in Roose his own hall. Manderly cannot rule because its a southern house, but has a lot of power and houses in his domain. Likely the North would chatter in some big pieces likely. SO all parties would only come together under a Stark-name, maybe a Kastark in the end!? 

 

On 2/23/2019 at 7:22 PM, Stallion That Mounts Texas said:

As Catelyn Stark was trying to dissuade Rob from legitimizing Jon, she mentions that there were Stark cousins in the Vale and elsewhere who could lay claim to the name.  Just as we see in the Vale with Harrold Hardyng, the next offshoot from the Stark branch would be the rightful heir.  

Nobility can be created.  That is always possible.  A loyal family to whoever comes out strong in the end.  Factor in the effects of thousands of wildlings and a weakened north.  Anything can happen.  The descendants of the barrow kings might use that to lay claim.  

 

[Vaith]

On 2/21/2019 at 5:43 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

It will vanish.  Our author went through great lengths to tell us about the Mudds, Barrow Kings, Gardeners.  Dead people.  Dead families.  A family and all it ever stood for can vanish.  Nothing is permanent.  

 

On 2/24/2019 at 12:22 AM, Stallion That Mounts Texas said:

As Catelyn Stark was trying to dissuade Rob from legitimizing Jon, she mentions that there were Stark cousins in the Vale and elsewhere who could lay claim to the name.  Just as we see in the Vale with Harrold Hardyng, the next offshoot from the Stark branch would be the rightful heir.  

And there is a potential Hornwood heir who is currently a Tallhart, but will probably adopt the name.

The Mudds and Barrow Kings and Gardeners died in periods of invasion that were quite unusual in Westeros. While the series is no doubt a time of great change, I think that the Arryns will only die off if they are defeated somehow, with Harry otherwise adopting the Arryn name.

[Seaserpent]

On 2/26/2019 at 9:28 PM, Vaith said:

 

And there is a potential Hornwood heir who is currently a Tallhart, but will probably adopt the name.

The Mudds and Barrow Kings and Gardeners died in periods of invasion that were quite unusual in Westeros. While the series is no doubt a time of great change, I think that the Arryns will only die off if they are defeated somehow, with Harry otherwise adopting the Arryn name.

Mudds, gardeners and barrowkings were all wiped out by conquers (Aegon/Andals) with an extreme big force at their sides. The North is a totally different matter. The boltons are not liked, the Boltons doesnt have a great number of soldiers. (more than each house after the war). They are in need of the Freys to help them holding everything together and are depending on the king. The Starks have a reputation of ruling  well for thousands of years. Even the Martells needed a very big force to help them settle as kings of Dorne. I dont see any reason the Boltons can rule the north for generations without being overthrown by almost every other coalition in the North. Its just a too minor house!

[Endymion I Targaryen]

As Littlefinger points out, the Arryns of the Eyrie have a collection of distant relatives located throughout the Vale. Although much poorer than the ruling Arryns, aside from the Arryns of Gulltown, the lesser branches are described by Petyr Baelish as proud due to their name and heritage. If Robert and all his close kin are dead then one of these Arryns can be chosen. Or a descendant of an Arryn who married into another house (Jasper Arryn's sister, aunt,etc) and can adopt the Arryn name

[Loge]

As long as there is some distant relative who can claim inheritance, House Arryn will continue. If, on the other hand the Vale ends up fighting on the wrong side in the war for the Iron Throne, it might go extinct and some other House will be installed as lords of the Vale.

[Syl of Syl]

In one of the sample chapters, we saw Harry the Heir's personal arms. He's got two quarters with the Arryn Falcon painted on. If he were to succeed Sweetrobin, he'd probably take the Arryn name. Hardyng is not even one of the greater houses of the Vale and the lords of the Vale are more likely to accept him should he take the Arryn name. This has probably happened a few times throughout history. GRRM even gave us one example of a Lefford I think who became the heir to Casterly Rock and then took the Lannister name - I think he probably married a Lannister tho.

[The Grey Wolf]

@Syl of Syl

You're thinking of Joffrey Lydden, who married Gerold III's only daughter and child.

[Syl of Syl]

On 4/21/2019 at 7:37 PM, The Grey Wolf said:

You're thinking of Joffrey Lydden, who married Gerold III's only daughter and child.

Ok thanks. Anyway, I think it gives us a good example, because he took the Lannister name despite being related through marriage only. In contrast, the first Lannister (whether Lann the Clever is real or not) didn't take the Casterly name. Why the change? Because the Casterlys never ruled all the Westerlands. When you rule that much territory, your name becomes important.

The Arryn name means you rule the Vale. Without it, I think it is easier for other lords to look at you and question your legitimacy. Maybe they wouldn't do it with Harrold Hardyng, but with his heir or the next one? Eventually their will be a weak enough ruler that the lords of the Vale will ask themselves why they are being ruled by a Hardyng. If that ruler has the Arryn name on the other hand, there's all the history of rule to keep them loyal.

 

[Seaserpent]

On 4/23/2019 at 5:35 PM, Syl of Syl said:

Ok thanks. Anyway, I think it gives us a good example, because he took the Lannister name despite being related through marriage only. In contrast, the first Lannister (whether Lann the Clever is real or not) didn't take the Casterly name. Why the change? Because the Casterlys never ruled all the Westerlands. When you rule that much territory, your name becomes important.

The Arryn name means you rule the Vale. Without it, I think it is easier for other lords to look at you and question your legitimacy. Maybe they wouldn't do it with Harrold Hardyng, but with his heir or the next one? Eventually their will be a weak enough ruler that the lords of the Vale will ask themselves why they are being ruled by a Hardyng. If that ruler has the Arryn name on the other hand, there's all the history of rule to keep them loyal.

 

I agree with you, there is noway a high lord like the Arryns can be replaced by a Hardyng. Thos lords like Stark, Arryn and Lannister etc were the first every Lords of this much land.