Heredity laws of westeros

[1000th Lord Commander]

Harry would take the Arryn name. When LF is discussing the succession with Sansa, he refers to the hypothetical rise of Harry as a young falcon. So he would take the Arryn name and sigil

[dsjj251]

On 2/21/2019 at 11:43 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

It will vanish.  Our author went through great lengths to tell us about the Mudds, Barrow Kings, Gardeners.  Dead people.  Dead families.  A family and all it ever stood for can vanish.  Nothing is permanent.  

No, last names can change 

 

Tallhart in A Clash of Kings is a good example where Beren is seen as capable of inheriting Hornwood lands and taking the last name. 

House Lannister is descended from the female line as well, because the male line was killed off, and Joffery Lydden took the Lannister name. 

 

 

[TwiceBorn]

So Jacaerys I Velaryon or Jacaerys I Targaryen?

[The hairy bear]

That's an usual debate around here.

Probably Jacaerys I Targaryen. But given that back then the Velaryon surname was at the height of its popularity, and the Targaryen name had only been associted with the monarchy for a little more than a century (while Starks or Arryns had been ruling their seats for millenia), there's the possibility that Jace had opted to keep the Velaryon name.

 

[Syl of Syl]

18 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Probably Jacaerys I Targaryen. But given that back then the Velaryon surname was at the height of its popularity, and the Targaryen name had only been associted with the monarchy for a little more than a century (while Starks or Arryns had been ruling their seats for millenia), there's the possibility that Jace had opted to keep the Velaryon name.

We have to remember also that Jace was betrothed to Baela. So his wife would have been Targaryen. Having the Velaryon name while his wife has the Targaryen, and looking like a Strong might seem to put him at a disadvantage in terms of legitimacy. One of those things he could change.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Syl of Syl said:

We have to remember also that Jace was betrothed to Baela. So his wife would have been Targaryen. Having the Velaryon name while his wife has the Targaryen, and looking like a Strong might seem to put him at a disadvantage in terms of legitimacy. One of those things he could change.

Oh, I never thought about that. Yes, that increases the likelihood that he would take the Targaryen name. After all, name-wise Baela certainly would have more prestige than he has.

But then, Gyldayn actually refers to Aegon III's half-sisters as Baela Velaryon and Rhaena Corbray in FaB, so there is actually a chance that women who were better born than their husbands were actually put in their place by insisting to refer to them by their husband's names. 

The main reason I think there is a good case to be made for him to continue to call himself 'Velaryon' is because of those rumors surrounding his parentage. If I were Jace I would insist to keep my birth name to rub it in everybody's face that I am the trueborn son of Laenor Velaryon no matter what my treacherous uncles say.

Also, as I laid out, House Targaryen would have been a rather young royal dynasty at that point, and House Velaryon nearly as prestigious or, in a sense, even more prestigious due to the actions of the Sea Snake.

[Syl of Syl]

48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The main reason I think there is a good case to be made for him to continue to call himself 'Velaryon' is because of those rumors surrounding his parentage. If I were Jace I would insist to keep my birth name to rub it in everybody's face that I am the trueborn son of Laenor Velaryon no matter what my treacherous uncles say.

Also, as I laid out, House Targaryen would have been a rather young royal dynasty at that point, and House Velaryon nearly as prestigious or, in a sense, even more prestigious due to the actions of the Sea Snake.

Those are both very good points. The Targaryen name is not as important as possession of dragons is at this point in their history. Jace is a dragonrider and that was enough to legitimize him for many.

One thing that occurs to me as relates to your point of House Velaryon being nearly as prestigious at this point is that this situation is pretty much all down to the Sea Snake, who harbored some bitterness towards Rhaenyra at this point due to the circumstances of Rhaenys's death. Combine this with Rhaenyra's ascension upsetting the rule of primogeniture, does Corlys Velaryon have the leverage to push Rhaenyra to name Baela or even Rhaena as her heir? Both twins have got as good a claim as Jace through the older female line of Rhaenys and Corlys Velaryon perhaps has got the means to do it seeing as how important he is to their eventual victory.

And one other thing that I think would provide an interesting twist is to think about a potential child of Jace and Baela as Rhaenyra's heir. We're talking about a world where Jace survives the Gullet and now we have to think about how the rest of the dance would have played out. I think after this great victory, perhaps he and Baela finally marry and with Rhaenyra perhaps playing it more cautiously than she did after his death, they have time to conceive a child.

As the rest of it plays out, Jace is not likely to survive. We see what happens to his brothers, and Jace is going to be in just as much danger. Part of the problem for the three boys is that they ride three of the youngest dragons during the dance which puts them at something of a disadvantage in dragon fights, so their survival is a longshot to begin with. So in this world where his child by Baela is now Rhaenyra's heir, does this child keep the Velaryon name or take the name of his/her mother and grandmother?

[TwiceBorn]

Rhaenys our Queen to be, the Queen that never was. Most fascinating character in the whole GRRM universe.

What was her reason to support Rhaenyra instead of making a play for the Throne, that rightly belonged to her, at least according to the cognatic primogeniture a succession law she apparently supported? Also: why didn't she fight against Daemon who - in my personal belief - had arranged deaths of her children? I believe she did this for Baela and Rhaela. She struck a deal with the devil - since Jacaerys could never sit on the Throne without a queen of a serious claim, Baela would practically regain what Rhaenyra had lost and Daemon would have his seed on the Iron Throne.

This is why I believe that Jacaerys would adopt Targaryen surname - officially to honor his mother, in reality to reinforce his child's claim against other Daemon seeds. Perhaps he'd go with double surname and quartered coat of arms.