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Wolfkin

Another Look at Dany's HOTU visions

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"A beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another ravaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing."

While doing a reread I found this:

. . . the day he {Aerys} burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. "You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, 'but not from him."

Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.
~aFfc, Jaime II

I'm not sure if this fits with the rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands like a servitor: 

Quote

King Aerys used you to roast the flesh off his enemies. His brother Jaime had told him a few stories of the Mad King and his pet pyromancers . . .
~aCoK, Tyrion III

But I could only come up with 3 pyromancers (not 4) that Jaime had mentioned: Rossart, Garigus, Belis (unless Aery's himself would be included) 

Too far off? Not enough textual evidence? 
I know there are many that think the 'beautiful woman' is Dany, and the rattish little things are the shades of the Undying, but she doesn't recognize herself as the 'beautiful woman'?
I'm new at posting theories, as I've mostly just asked questions, so please be gentle with your replies. Thank you
 

Edited by Wolfkin

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That's a nice similarity you spotted.

It seems true that the pyromancers helped Aerys to facilitate the rapes of Rhaella by 'charging up' Aerys.

Whether that was the pyromancers intention is questionable. I haven't read that it was. Instead as I always understood it Aerys' getting charged up by burning people was an unintentional side effect of his desire to burn them. Which would mean the pyromancers were not really accomplices in the rapes.

However your idea is pretty cool in that it makes me question whether my impression about the pyromancers' motives was correct? Maybe their goal really was to charge up Aerys (in oder to produce another Targaryen baby from Rhaella? - Fire and Blood after all.) Maybe the burning people alive stuff really only was a means to that end and we just haven't explicitly been told that?

A nice idea. Whether there is something to it we'll have to wait and see.

EDIT: what's also neat is that this would explain why Dany got shown this vision: She would be witnessing her own conception. Well - in a metaphorical way.

Edited by Amris

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5 hours ago, Wolfkin said:

While doing a reread I found this:

. . . the day he {Aerys} burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. "You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, 'but not from him."

Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.
~aFfc, Jaime II

I'm not sure if this fits with the rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands like a servitor: 

But I could only come up with 3 pyromancers (not 4) that Jaime had mentioned: Rossart, Garigus, Belis (unless Aery's himself would be included) 

Too far off? Not enough textual evidence? 
I know there are many that think the 'beautiful woman' is Dany, and the rattish little things are the shades of the Undying, but she doesn't recognize herself as the 'beautiful woman'?
I'm new at posting theories, as I've mostly just asked questions, so please be gentle with your replies. Thank you
 

I disagree with your interpretations.  The visions were given in reverse chronological order.  This came at the beginning of the series of visions.  So this one is indeed Westeros getting raped by Joff, Stannis, Robb, Balon, and Renly.  The five "kings" who were destroying the kingdom during the war of the five kings.   

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I think, that the beautiful woman in that vision is 7K, and four little men are Stannis, Renly, Joffrey and Balon. But Robb was not among them. That's because out of five kings from the War, he was the only one, who went into war to save/avenge his family, not to get crown or Iron Throne. And also in Dany's visions he was depicted in the next room, he was the king with wolf's head, in the scene of Red Wedding. So four out of five kings were shown to Dany in first room, while the fifth king was in the next room. That scene is about War of four kings, excluding Robb.

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I had always figured the vision was supposed to represent Cercei's death at the hands of Tyrion, but I was probably to focussed on the Dwarfs... The other explanations I've read here make more sense.

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3 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think, that the beautiful woman in that vision is 7K, and four little men are Stannis, Renly, Joffrey and Balon. But Robb was not among them. That's because out of five kings from the War, he was the only one, who went into war to save/avenge his family, not to get crown or Iron Throne. And also in Dany's visions he was depicted in the next room, he was the king with wolf's head, in the scene of Red Wedding. So four out of five kings were shown to Dany in first room, while the fifth king was in the next room. That scene is about War of four kings, excluding Robb.

The four represent Robb, Joff, Stannis, and Renly. Balon is the exclusion. He had not yet declared himself king at the time of Dany's visit to the HotU.

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3 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think, that the beautiful woman in that vision is 7K, and four little men are Stannis, Renly, Joffrey and Balon. But Robb was not among them. That's because out of five kings from the War, he was the only one, who went into war to save/avenge his family, not to get crown or Iron Throne. And also in Dany's visions he was depicted in the next room, he was the king with wolf's head, in the scene of Red Wedding. So four out of five kings were shown to Dany in first room, while the fifth king was in the next room. That scene is about War of four kings, excluding Robb.

Balon was not trying to win the Iron Throne either. He was attempting to carve out his own kingdom, like Robb was.

13 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

The four represent Robb, Joff, Stannis, and Renly. Balon is the exclusion. He had not yet declared himself king at the time of Dany's visit to the HotU.

I think he did. By one of Bran's middle chapters, when the attack on Deepwood is reported, it is said that he has declared himself King of the Iron Isles. But he never claimed the Iron Throne.

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18 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I think he did. By one of Bran's middle chapters, when the attack on Deepwood is reported, it is said that he has declared himself King of the Iron Isles. But he never claimed the Iron Throne.

Yes, I think you're right. Bran VI (which is before Dany's visit):

Quote

One of the ironmen handed Reek a sword, and he laid it at Theon's feet and swore obedience to House Greyjoy and King Balon. Bran could not look. The green dream was coming true.

@Lost Melnibonean has some good ideas about this. I believe his thought is that the four represent what the Undying Ones do to Dany before Drogon saves her.

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11 hours ago, Wolfkin said:

While doing a reread I found this:

. . . the day he {Aerys} burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. "You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, 'but not from him."

Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.
~aFfc, Jaime II

I'm not sure if this fits with the rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands like a servitor: 

But I could only come up with 3 pyromancers (not 4) that Jaime had mentioned: Rossart, Garigus, Belis (unless Aery's himself would be included) 

Too far off? Not enough textual evidence? 
I know there are many that think the 'beautiful woman' is Dany, and the rattish little things are the shades of the Undying, but she doesn't recognize herself as the 'beautiful woman'?
I'm new at posting theories, as I've mostly just asked questions, so please be gentle with your replies. Thank you
 

The woman is definitely not Daenerys. 

The woman is a generic symbol of humanity.  There is a war of the species taking place and the humans have no idea.  The other species, represented in the vision by the dwarves, are at war with man for control of the planet.  This image shows what will happen if they should win.  The war with the Others is only one such war and not even the most important.  Humans are under attack from the other species on the planet. 

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Not sure about the pyromancers, although the name Pyat Pree does kind of resonate a bit.

There's also the larger theme of the 'devoured/mutilated woman', which pops up quite often (and always really disturbing imagery...): Cersei dreams of Tyrion gnawing her breasts till they bleed. Brienne is 'eaten' by Biter. A number of women dream of the flesh being cut or burnt or boiled off their bones. Weird.

Doesn't invalidate any theory about the HotU beautiful women - just makes it bigger.

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I like the find with Aerys. 

It's hard to connect this to the pyromancers as we have so few details about them (Hallyne has damp hands) but your find has me thinking about other manipulators working behind the curtains. I do think its referring to the War of the 5 Kings and what it's doing to Westeros, but I also think multiple meanings are more common than we think. 

The rat-like features of smallness, pointed faces and pink hands are very specific. So maybe consider small (common?) men who are lesser hands to the Kings who have rat-ish agendas which push the Kings to their decisions with Aerys being the extreme case to make the point?

Aerys' pyromancers might well be in this group. Maesters are often described as having pink hands and there are some conspiracies out there about Citadel plots. Pink hands are red (bloody) hands-lite. Some speculate that Varys works for the Citadel and if you believe his anti-magic statement, this lines up with an alliance with the Citadel, and is contrary to supporting uber-magical Targs. Freys definitely come to mind, but at this point in the story at least, it's tough to connect them.

But Varys' soft hands are mentioned all of the time along with LF's pointed, goateed face and both are small/common and rat-like. Notice the kings, but take a really close look to see those manipulating them.

Edit: Hallyne has soft, damp hands just like Varys. 

Edited by Lollygag

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8 hours ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

I disagree with your interpretations.  The visions were given in reverse chronological order.  This came at the beginning of the series of visions.  So this one is indeed Westeros getting raped by Joff, Stannis, Robb, Balon, and Renly.  The five "kings" who were destroying the kingdom during the war of the five kings.   

This.  The future destruction of Westeros from the houses within.  But what's the point of prophecy if it cannot be averted.  I will say possible future if certain actions are not taken.  Obviously this is meant to lead the heroine on a path.

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3 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

The four represent Robb, Joff, Stannis, and Renly. Balon is the exclusion. He had not yet declared himself king at the time of Dany's visit to the HotU.

The time of her visit is irrelevant, because what she saw there was visions of past, present, and future. In one room she saw four kings from the War, and in the next room she saw, what will happen with the fifth king from the same War, and he was shown separately from the other four, because he was different, he went into that War because of different reasons than the other four, for his family, not for the power. Also, not only at the time of Dany's visit Balon hadn't yet declared himself King, Robb also wasn't dead yet, with wolf's head instead of his own. So those visions were unrelated to Dany's "present" time, they were showing general picture of global events. For example, even though three of those four kings are already dead, the violation of 7K, that the four of them started, is still ongoing. Get it? -> "general picture".

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Balon was not trying to win the Iron Throne either. He was attempting to carve out his own kingdom, like Robb was.

Balon was attempting to carve out his own kingdom, by ripping off part of 7K. And Robb's motivation, because of which he participated in that war, was different. When he was in Winterfell, gathering his father's bannermen, he wasn't doing that to become King (of 7K, of the North, or to create his own Kingdom), all he wanted at that time, is to save his father (and later to avenge for the death of his father). So he was/is different from the other four. That's why he was shown separately from the other four.

@OtherFromAnotherMother If you think, that those four little men are four kings, including Robb, but excluding Balon, just because at the time of Dany's vision, Balon hasn't yet declared himself King, then what is your explanation of why out of those four (in your opinion - Joff, Robb, Renly, Stannis), in the next room/rooms to Dany was shown only fate of ONE of them, while there was given no additional information about fate of the other three/or two, that later also died same as Robb (why wasn't there room with depiction of Joff's death at Purple Wedding, why there was no room with depiction of Renly's assassination by Mel's shadow-baby, why there was no room with Balon's fall)? Why only Robb's fate was shown separately?

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Just now, Megorova said:

Why only Robb's fate was shown separately?

Possible crackpot explanation: In the Shade of the Evening thread, I pointed out the possibility that the trees in Qarth are Westeros-style weirwoods poisoned by sorcery to get around the wired connection and create a wireless connection. That Dany would be shown a beautiful woman (the land itself) being ravaged by little men (kings and maybe implied men behind the kings) and Robb specifically being shown (Robb/direwolf looks to Dany in an appeal for help) points to an old god perspective. Dany is then shown Willem Darry as an attempt to lure Dany to stay. We then see Aerys threatening to burn people. We're told in abstract that he burned people, but the one incident which stands out to the reader is the incident with Rickard and Brandon. Then she sees Rhaegar's scene and this is a line to the Lyanna incident which some speculate was because of her Stark blood. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Yes, I think you're right. Bran VI (which is before Dany's visit):

@Lost Melnibonean has some good ideas about this. I believe his thought is that the four represent what the Undying Ones do to Dany before Drogon saves her.

Kinda

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Also, not only at the time of Dany's visit Balon hadn't yet declared himself King, Robb also wasn't dead yet, with wolf's head instead of his own. So those visions were unrelated to Dany's "present" time, they were showing general picture of global events. For example, even though three of those four kings are already dead, the violation of 7K, that the four of them started, is still ongoing. Get it? -> "general picture".

I never said all the visions were only related to Dany's present time. I'm not sure why you are trying to explain this to me.

The idea that the servitors represent four kings is a strong possibility, along with @Lost Melnibonean's ideas. If they represent four kings, which kings they represent is certainly up for debate. I had originally thought it was Balon being excluded for reasons I mentioned upthread, but as @John Suburbs politely pointed out, I was incorrect. 

I also think it is possible that this could be one of those visions which George will make clear in the next two books, and we are all wrong. 

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

what is your explanation of why out of those four (in your opinion - Joff, Robb, Renly, Stannis), in the next room/rooms to Dany was shown only fate of ONE of them, while there was given no additional information about fate of the other three/or two, that later also died same as Robb (why wasn't there room with depiction of Joff's death at Purple Wedding, why there was no room with depiction of Renly's assassination by Mel's shadow-baby, why there was no room with Balon's fall)? Why only Robb's fate was shown separately?

It could be as you say. 

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18 hours ago, Megorova said:

Balon was attempting to carve out his own kingdom, by ripping off part of 7K. And Robb's motivation, because of which he participated in that war, was different. When he was in Winterfell, gathering his father's bannermen, he wasn't doing that to become King (of 7K, of the North, or to create his own Kingdom), all he wanted at that time, is to save his father (and later to avenge for the death of his father). So he was/is different from the other four. That's why he was shown separately from the other four.

It's possible, but all of these kings are ravishing the land, so I don't see why one should be excluded just because he shows up in the next room. But this explanation is just as valid as any other I've seen, and I doubt we'll ever get the full meaning. :)

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