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Ser Uncle P

Prince Nymor's letter (slight crackpot)

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Looking over the suggestions by Gyldayn as to what Nymor wrote in his letter that spooked Aegon, NONE of them add up. 

Eg, "ensorcelment", threats to hire FM to kill Aenys, an emotional appeal to the better angels of Aegon's nature (!) or returning the remains of Rhaenys and Meraxes. All weak. All red herrings by Martin. None of these explain why Aegon flew to Dragonstone before deciding to cease hostilities. Nor is it "plot armour" or an oversight by Martin

 

There's another possibility. Both Nymor and Aegon are, ethnically speaking "latecomers" to Westeros when compared to the Andals or First Men.  The Rhoyanar are only in Dorne 600 years and it's only 125 years since Aenar migrated. The past in Essos weighs heavily on both rulers' shoulders. 

 

I'd wager the letter referred to events in Essos that both men would have known well...specifically the Rhoynish wars between the Freehold and the Rhoyanar.

 

We know that the Rhoyanar had great  success against the Valaryians from Volantis, with their water wizards and shooting down 2 dragons. It took 300 dragons from the freehold to beat Garin the Great, firepower that Aegon can never access. Even after the war, the fog of the Sorrows has made the territory a no go area for centuries. 

 

Nymor probably reminded Aegon of that war and that he had no Freehold to call on for reinforcements.  He could point to the flood of Volon Therys as an example of Rhoyanar water magic and remind Aegon where his new capital was located... He could point out that only Dorne had successfully fought against a dragon in Westeros. 

 

We know from Doran Martell that Dorne exaggerates it's strength to deter would be invaders. Nymor might have bluffed that he still had "water wizards" in his service. Even if Aegon suspected bullshit, the fact remained that the kingdom ruled by Rhoynish refugees had succeeded where the other 6 hadn't.  Meraxes' carcass was proof of this. The letter was a threat to turn the new capitol into another Volon Therys and the Sorrows, unless Aegon ceased hostilities. 

Aegon would have had records from Valyria in Dragonstone brought by Aenar about the Rhoynish wars. These would have been far more detailed than any info some Maester would have had. That's why Aegon flew straight to Dragonstone after reading the letter. These records confirmed that historically the Rhoyanar were a bona fide thorn in the Freeholds side. Aegon was no hot head warmonger like Maegor or others after him. 

That's why Aegon accepted the offer of peace, and why his descendants treaded carefully with Dorne for the next 150 years...

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ser Uncle P

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I’d say don’t really push yourself for an answer because it is clearly an easy way cop out “why did Targaryens stop trying to take Dorne?”. The letter is a huge plot device. 

 

Imo the most plausible one is to threat Aenys with FM but it doesn’t explain why he flew to Dragonstone... so yeah it is a mystery with no answer.

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The Martells were much further removed from Rhoynish wizardry than the Targaryens were from the Freehold. I don't see such a threat working on Aegon. I am not sure what the letter contained. Perhaps the Dornish brought Rhaenyrs's remains with them to King's Landing, and the letter instructed him where to retrieve them, so he could bring burn them and deposit them on Dragonstone? Or perhaps not. Whatever the case, Dorne is a shithole that Aegon originally only wanted for completion's sake, and then only wanted for revenge's sake. Aegon was never going to take and keep Dorne with dragons, and he would have had to send tens of thousands to their deaths to take and hold it without dragons. The "prize" was never going to be worth the price.

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6 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The Martells were much further removed from Rhoynish wizardry than the Targaryens were from the Freehold. 

True, but Martell bannermen had slain a full grown dragon, just as the Rhoyanar did in Garin's day. It's a possible connection. 

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I doubt Aegon would believe Dorne had water wizards or the threat of them would make Aegon agree to peace. I tend to believe the FM route. The whole thing will probably be a mystery that never gets answered. 

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10 hours ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

I doubt Aegon would believe Dorne had water wizards or the threat of them would make Aegon agree to peace. I tend to believe the FM route. The whole thing will probably be a mystery that never gets answered. 

If all it took was a threat to hire a Faceless Man to deter Aegon, then why didn't one of the other 6 rulers try that? Or why would he fly to Dragonstone for a night in response to such a threat? 

The other regions had deeper pockets than Dorne, especially the Reach and Casterly Rock. They could have paid for killing Aegon, his sisters and even Orys for good measure. 

I know the water wizards is a shot in the dark, but the fact remains that Nymor alone of the monarchs in Westeros is descended from a nation that held Valyrians Dragonlords at bay. Reminding Aegon of this would be a good thing to put in the letter. 

Edited by Ser Uncle P
Misspellings

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Could the letter have been about the 'Device from Lys'?

Quote

THE DRAGONS WROTH

The grief Aegon and Visenya felt at the death of Rhaenys was great; the next two years would later be called the years of the Dragon's Wroth. The Targaryens burned every Dornish stronghold at least once, with the exception of Sunspear and its shadow city. The Dornish believed that the Targaryens refused to attack Sunspear because they were afraid that Princess Meria might have purchased a device from Lys to slay dragons with. Archmaester Timotty offers a different explanation, suggesting in his Conjectures that Aegon hoped this would instead turn the Dornish against the Martells. Indeed, letters have been discovered in which Marcher lords urge Dornish lords to surrender, while claiming that House Martell had purchased their safety from the dragons. Regardless of the truth, the Dornish lords and smallfolk remained loyal.[1]

Aegon and Visenya also placed bounties on the heads of Dornish lords, who, in turn, placed bounties on the Targaryens and their allies. Half a dozen Dornish lords were successfully assassinated, though only two of their killers ever lived to collect their bounties.[1] King Aegon was attacked on three occasions, and Visenya was attacked on several occasions as well. One day, when Aegon and Visenya were assaulted on the streets of King's Landing, only Visenya's swift intervention saved Aegon's life. This attack led to the creation of the elite royal bodyguard known as the Kingsguard in 10 AC.[1][2] Lord Fell was killed in a brothel in King's Landing,[1] while the Wyl of Wyl committed atrocities, particularly in Fawnton and Old Oak.[1]

Although Dorne was a blasted, burning ruin from the Red Mountains to the mouth of the Greenblood, the Dornish continued to fight.

 

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10 hours ago, Ser Uncle P said:

If all it took was a threat to hire a Faceless Man to deter Aegon, then why didn't one of the other 6 rulers try that? Or why would he fly to Dragonstone for a night in response to such a threat? 

The other regions had deeper pockets than Dorne, especially the Reach and Casterly Rock. They could have paid for killing Aegon, his sisters and even Orys for good measure. 

I know the water wizards is a shot in the dark, but the fact remains that Nymor alone of the monarchs in Westeros is descended from a nation that held Valyrians Dragonlords at bay. Reminding Aegon of this would be a good thing to put in the letter. 

Maybe because the other 6 rulers actually thought they could beat Aegon in the field or hold out in their castles. They lost or decided not to fight, then bent the knee to their new King. Why would Nymor make a empty threat? One that could easy been proven false. I don't have a answer as to why he flew to DS or why he burned the letter after reading it or why he clenched the letter so hard his hands were bleeding.

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3 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Could the letter have been about the 'Device from Lys'?

 

I'd buy that possibility ahead of the Faceless Man treath or offering to return Rhaenys' remains.  

There were dragonlords slain in Lys and Tyrosh in the aftermath of the Doom, which was very recent. 

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1 minute ago, Ser Uncle P said:

I'd buy that possibility ahead of the Faceless Man treath or offering to return Rhaenys' remains.  

There were dragonlords slain in Lys and Tyrosh in the aftermath of the Doom, which was very recent. 

 I wonder what the device was. Some sort of mega Scorpion or something?

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On 2/20/2019 at 7:33 PM, Ser Uncle P said:

Looking over the suggestions by Gyldayn as to what Nymor wrote in his letter that spooked Aegon, NONE of them add up. 

:agree: and I like the suggestion that it might be something Rhoynish hiding in the woodshed, too.

In this case though, the next question is why did Aegon's successors not also feel bound by it? OK, he burnt the letter, but if the fact of the matter was something Rhoynish that was a special threat to hold against Targaryens/Valyrians/dragons surely he would have taken some steps to ensure future members of his House would be aware of what a war with Dorne could entail. For this reason alone, I still suspect that the letter was something relevant to Aegon personally.

However, I am not totally convinced of anything at this stage... except that only the Dornish would be mad enough to eat anything as hot as a dragon ;)

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18 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

In this case though, the next question is why did Aegon's successors not also feel bound by it? OK, he burnt the letter, but if the fact of the matter was something Rhoynish that was a special threat to hold against Targaryens/Valyrians/dragons surely he would have taken some steps to ensure future members of his House would be aware of what a war with Dorne could entail. For this reason alone, I still suspect that the letter was something relevant to Aegon personally.

Agreed. It's not like Prince Morion used water wizards in his foolish campaign against the Iron Throne, nor did the Prince of Dorne use it as a last resort during the Conquest of Dorne. I find it hard to believe that Rhoynish magic would survive 700 years in Westeros and then conveniently die out a few decades after the Targaryens showed up.

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1 hour ago, Vaith said:

. I find it hard to believe that Rhoynish magic would survive 700 years in Westeros and then conveniently die out a few decades after the Targaryens showed up.

My original argument was that Morion bluffed that he had ancient Rhoynish magic to hand. 

He could point to the fact that Dorne alone of all Westeros was able to kill a full grown dragon, and dare Aegon to call his bluff.

 

Morion's ancestors had success in slaying dragons too. A trip to the Valyrian records in Dragonstone would have confirmed this to Aegon. 

 

No other explanation tallies with Aegon flying to DS before accepting peace BTW. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

:agree: and I like the suggestion that it might be something Rhoynish hiding in the woodshed, too.

In this case though, the next question is why did Aegon's successors not also feel bound by it? OK, he burnt the letter, but if the fact of the matter was something Rhoynish that was a special threat to hold against Targaryens/Valyrians/dragons surely he would have taken some steps to ensure future members of his House would be aware of what a war with Dorne could entail. For this reason alone, I still suspect that the letter was something relevant to Aegon personally.

However, I am not totally convinced of anything at this stage... except that only the Dornish would be mad enough to eat anything as hot as a dragon ;)

@Rufus Snow As long as they had dragons, Aegon's line stayed away from Dorne and respected it's independence. Even Maegor never bothered to try conquer Dorne. I think this was on Aegon's advise, either explicitly or implicitly. 

There was no Targaryen aggression until Daeron, well after the dragons were extinct. 

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The threat about Aenys being killed by FM seems unrealistic. Aegon could marry another (fertile) woman, produce many heirs and continue the war with Dorne to avenge both Rhaenys's and Aenys's death. Dorne is not that rich to afford FM all the time to kill Aegon's sons.

If Dorne had water magic, it would have been used against Aegon during the Wrath of the Dragon.

Sending Meraxes's head to King's Landing seemed as a warning: "We killed one dragon. You have only two left. We can kill them too." How can Aegon keep his newly-made kingdom without dragons? 

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I don’t think it likely that Prince Nymor sent his heir to King’s Landing with a threat. You’ve just given Aegon the best possible hostage. The most reasonable thing I’ve seen (I don’t remember who theorised it) was that the letter was from Rhaenys, who had been gravely injured but treated well at Hellholt. The Dornish may have sent Rhaenys’s body on a boat to Dragonstone and Aegon went to see it. I’m not totally convinced but it’s the only explanation I can believe that would explain Prince Nymor risking sending his heir and Aegon flying to Dragonstone and later agreeing to peace. 

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On 2/24/2019 at 7:24 PM, Ser Uncle P said:

There was no Targaryen aggression until Daeron, well after the dragons were extinct.

Yes, that's very telling - the Targs couldn't conquer the rest of Westeros without dragons; Dorne they couldn't conquer WITH dragons.... and this is the evidence I missed that Aegon probably did warn his heirs and successors  :read:

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Some people say that they give tge body of rhaenys back or give her a quick dead. If that was true aegon could have pick up his arms the very next week, so that is no reason for peace!

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Personally the only thing that makes sense to me is that Rhaenys survived the death of Meraxes and the letter was essentially a back-off or we kill her type thing. It explains why Aegon stopped attacking Dorne, why no King after felt beholden to it, why he would burn the letter (what lord is going to accept a newly made King that is already being blackmailed) and why he would fly to Dragonstone before making the decision (he's going to his and Rhaenys' home essentially to think about the pros/cons).

Threatening an alive Rhaenys (and sending Meraxes head as a 'we killed one, we can kill two more' reminder) is the only thing to me that makes sense.

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10 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Personally the only thing that makes sense to me is that Rhaenys survived the death of Meraxes and the letter was essentially a back-off or we kill her type thing. It explains why Aegon stopped attacking Dorne, why no King after felt beholden to it, why he would burn the letter (what lord is going to accept a newly made King that is already being blackmailed) and why he would fly to Dragonstone before making the decision (he's going to his and Rhaenys' home essentially to think about the pros/cons).

Threatening an alive Rhaenys (and sending Meraxes head as a 'we killed one, we can kill two more' reminder) is the only thing to me that makes sense.

But once Rhaenys was dead, what would stop Aegon resuming hostilities. 

Whatever was in the letter not just persuaded Aegon to back off, but generations of Targaryen kings left Dorne alone until the time of Daereon 150 years later!!!

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