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Ser Uncle P

Prince Nymor's letter (slight crackpot)

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43 minutes ago, Ser Uncle P said:

But once Rhaenys was dead, what would stop Aegon resuming hostilities. 

Whatever was in the letter not just persuaded Aegon to back off, but generations of Targaryen kings left Dorne alone until the time of Daereon 150 years later!!!

Aegon has no way to be certain when Rhaenys is dead. Since she, or her remains, are in Dorne's possession, they alone know the truth. Dorne might be able to prove she survived the fall if they can pass along something to Aegon that would only be known to them. If they did tell Aegon that she survived, he would have to choose whether to believe them or not, whether to take a chance or not. That gives Aegon good reason to keep the peace with them. And whether or not he stressed to his sons to keep the peace, they both had more pressing concerns than trying to conquer Dorne. But aside from all that, I think the wars themselves proved dragons would not work to occupy and assimilate Dorne. Aegon might have been too wroth to accept that, but perhaps the Dornish gave him a good reason to see the sense in not throwing a bunch of lives away trying to conquer and hold a place that was pretty crappy.

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4 hours ago, Ser Uncle P said:

But once Rhaenys was dead, what would stop Aegon resuming hostilities. 

Whatever was in the letter not just persuaded Aegon to back off, but generations of Targaryen kings left Dorne alone until the time of Daereon 150 years later!!!

But the letter only actually got Aegon to back off. He read it, burned it and then never troubled Dorne again. None of the other Kings saw the letter and if Aegon had ever put it into words (even to tell his kids about it) there'd be some hint of it in the text (rumours in Aegonfort about something cryptic he said to Aenys and Maegor or something). But there isn't. The letter convinced Aegon to accept a treaty with Dorne. The Kings after him, if Aegon's failure to take Dorne in any way affected their interactions with Dorne, do not have to know what was in the letter. Simply that whatever it was, it caused the Conqueror himself to back down. That alone might be enough.

Besides, of all the Kings between Aegon I and Daeron I, only one would have been inclined to try and take Dorne anyway and that's Maegor. And I daresay he had bigger problems at the time. But there's no reason to doubt that he would have been happy to try and fight Dorne if he'd had the chance. Of the others: Aenys was weak and trying to deal with internal problems, Jahaerys and Alysanne didn't really seem to have any desire to attack Dorne but had no problem in utterly slaughtering them if the aggressions started on the other side, Viserys wasn't a martial King, Rhaenyra and Aegon II only sat the throne in wartime and Aegon III was a broken shell who lost everything to a war. So really, the contents of the letter probably didn't play any part in why the Targaryen's left Dorne alone between 35 AC (ish; Aegon's death) and Daeron's conquest.

As for the part about what happens after Rhaenys is dead, well thats  the risk with hostages. In the main series what's to stop the Riverlords from rising up once Edmure dies? Nothing but if nothing else it buys time to consolodate and regroup.

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On 2/20/2019 at 11:33 AM, Ser Uncle P said:

Looking over the suggestions by Gyldayn as to what Nymor wrote in his letter that spooked Aegon, NONE of them add up. 

Eg, "ensorcelment", threats to hire FM to kill Aenys, an emotional appeal to the better angels of Aegon's nature (!) or returning the remains of Rhaenys and Meraxes. All weak. All red herrings by Martin. None of these explain why Aegon flew to Dragonstone before deciding to cease hostilities. Nor is it "plot armour" or an oversight by Martin

 

There's another possibility. Both Nymor and Aegon are, ethnically speaking "latecomers" to Westeros when compared to the Andals or First Men.  The Rhoyanar are only in Dorne 600 years and it's only 125 years since Aenar migrated. The past in Essos weighs heavily on both rulers' shoulders. 

 

I'd wager the letter referred to events in Essos that both men would have known well...specifically the Rhoynish wars between the Freehold and the Rhoyanar.

 

We know that the Rhoyanar had great  success against the Valaryians from Volantis, with their water wizards and shooting down 2 dragons. It took 300 dragons from the freehold to beat Garin the Great, firepower that Aegon can never access. Even after the war, the fog of the Sorrows has made the territory a no go area for centuries. 

 

Nymor probably reminded Aegon of that war and that he had no Freehold to call on for reinforcements.  He could point to the flood of Volon Therys as an example of Rhoyanar water magic and remind Aegon where his new capital was located... He could point out that only Dorne had successfully fought against a dragon in Westeros. 

 

We know from Doran Martell that Dorne exaggerates it's strength to deter would be invaders. Nymor might have bluffed that he still had "water wizards" in his service. Even if Aegon suspected bullshit, the fact remained that the kingdom ruled by Rhoynish refugees had succeeded where the other 6 hadn't.  Meraxes' carcass was proof of this. The letter was a threat to turn the new capitol into another Volon Therys and the Sorrows, unless Aegon ceased hostilities. 

Aegon would have had records from Valyria in Dragonstone brought by Aenar about the Rhoynish wars. These would have been far more detailed than any info some Maester would have had. That's why Aegon flew straight to Dragonstone after reading the letter. These records confirmed that historically the Rhoyanar were a bona fide thorn in the Freeholds side. Aegon was no hot head warmonger like Maegor or others after him. 

That's why Aegon accepted the offer of peace, and why his descendants treaded carefully with Dorne for the next 150 years...

 

 

 

 

I like this explanation a lot because when I first read about the letter I immediately thought it had something to do with Rhoynar magic.  But I found that return to Dragonstone very curious and just love the idea he was consulting his library.  My imaginings were so much more sinister but this makes sense!

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Dorne is a Mary Sue in WOIAF lore so it's likely there won't be an answer to what was in that letter because the entire scenario was ridiculous from the start.

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Prince Nymor sent a letter saying back off or your sister dies a slow and painful death.Come with your remaining dragon's and the people of the realm will be receiving 2 dragon skulls and looking for a new king and queen.

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I'm honestly partial to the letter being bewitched with some blood magic with Rhaenys' blood answer. Dragons were still in the world at the time, magic was more of an option then it will be for most of history of the Seven Kingdoms.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/4/2019 at 2:58 AM, M.Alhazred said:

Prince Nymor sent a letter saying back off or your sister dies a slow and painful death.Come with your remaining dragon's and the people of the realm will be receiving 2 dragon skulls and looking for a new king and queen.

Lol you do realize he sent his daughter and heir to deliver the letter right? 

 

On 5/4/2019 at 3:55 PM, Denam_Pavel said:

I'm honestly partial to the letter being bewitched with some blood magic with Rhaenys' blood answer. Dragons were still in the world at the time, magic was more of an option then it will be for most of history of the Seven Kingdoms.

The problem with that being that if it was blood magic, Dorne would've done that, y'know, before their entire country got glassed. If Planetos had mind control magic, this wouldn't be the only time ever it would be mentioned.

 

 

Edited by sleath56

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I think Aegon believed that he was the Prince that was Promised, which was in fact his whole reason for invading and Dorne came up with something that proved to him that he was not. Hence his urgent consultation of his libraries.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, sleath56 said:

The problem with that being that if it was blood magic, Dorne would've done that, y'know, before their entire country got glassed. If Planetos had mind control magic, this wouldn't be the only time ever it would be mentioned.

 

 

They didn't have Rhaenys' blood before. And dragons died and the magic went away. The moment Pyromancers noticed their own magic worked again, they went "have you seen any dragons?" And all these histories are written by Maesters, those people who hated magic and Marwyn tells us killed the last dragons to get rid of it.

Edited by Denam_Pavel

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Personally, I was partial to the first explanation of a simple plea father to father. Aegon is a mix of his two sons. He can play the part of brutal conqueror, but he still has a heart. The emotional appeal would have found a receptive ear.

Also, I don't think that Nymor was supposed to be as fierce and stubborn as Meria. To my reading, he didn't seem the type to effectively use threats where his mother couldn't. Likewise, Aegon didn't seem the type to back down to threats, even ones that involve magic. Yes, he was likely aware of the Rhoynish wars, but he would also be well aware that the Dragonlords won that war, and that these Dornish are the descendants of the scattered remnants of those Rhoynar. I don't think this threat of water magic holds water.

The interesting tidbit to me is that Aegon's hand was dripping blood when he rose after reading the letter. What was that about? Did he cut it on the Iron Throne because he was gripping extra hard in anger, in grief, some other emotion?

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I have read theories, that maybe in that letter it was written, that Rhaenys Targaryen survived after the fall of her dragon.

Rhaenys supposedly died in 10 AC, but the letter was delivered to Aegon in 13 AC. In 23 AC Aegon and his son Aenys visited Dorne for a "feast of friendship" celebrating the tenth anniversary of the peace accord with Princess Deria.

"In 37 AC, as the Vulture King troubled the lands surrounding the border between Dorne and the Iron Throne, Princess Deria insisted to King Aenys I Targaryen that she was doing what she could to end the rebellion, many suspected that she was secretly giving the rebel her support."

 

Based on this information, I think that either Rhaenys died in 10 AC, after she gave birth to Aegon's child, or that she got pregnant from someone else, already in Dorne, possibly, one of Martells, and gave birth to their child in 13 AC. So that's when they allowed her to get in contact with Aegon. Because she became a mother of a half-Martell child, and because they were not going to let the child go with her to KL, she was going to stay in Dorne permanently. When Aegon and Aenys visited Dorne in 23 AC, there was held a wedding between Rhaenys' son and daughter of Princess Deria Martell. This unnamed son was the Vulture King, and Aenys Targaryen knew, that this guy was his brother/or half-brother.

If my guess is correct, then at the time of his death, the Vulture King was either 27 or 24 years old. So, most likely, him and Deria's daughter already had many kids, and one of their children eventually became Prince or Princess of Dorne.

Next known Martell after Deria was Qoren Martell, he was Prince of Dorne during reign of King Viserys I Targaryen. Based on timeframe, and Targaryen family tree, it seems, that Qoren could be Vulture King's great-grandson, and Aegon's great great-grandson.

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

I have read theories, that maybe in that letter it was written, that Rhaenys Targaryen survived after the fall of her dragon.

Rhaenys supposedly died in 10 AC, but the letter was delivered to Aegon in 13 AC. In 23 AC Aegon and his son Aenys visited Dorne for a "feast of friendship" celebrating the tenth anniversary of the peace accord with Princess Deria.

"In 37 AC, as the Vulture King troubled the lands surrounding the border between Dorne and the Iron Throne, Princess Deria insisted to King Aenys I Targaryen that she was doing what she could to end the rebellion, many suspected that she was secretly giving the rebel her support."

 

Based on this information, I think that either Rhaenys died in 10 AC, after she gave birth to Aegon's child, or that she got pregnant from someone else, already in Dorne, possibly, one of Martells, and gave birth to their child in 13 AC. So that's when they allowed her to get in contact with Aegon. Because she became a mother of a half-Martell child, and because they were not going to let the child go with her to KL, she was going to stay in Dorne permanently. When Aegon and Aenys visited Dorne in 23 AC, there was held a wedding between Rhaenys' son and daughter of Princess Deria Martell. This unnamed son was the Vulture King, and Aenys Targaryen knew, that this guy was his brother/or half-brother.

If my guess is correct, then at the time of his death, the Vulture King was either 27 or 24 years old. So, most likely, him and Deria's daughter already had many kids, and one of their children eventually became Prince or Princess of Dorne.

Next known Martell after Deria was Qoren Martell, he was Prince of Dorne during reign of King Viserys I Targaryen. Based on timeframe, and Targaryen family tree, it seems, that Qoren could be Vulture King's great-grandson, and Aegon's great great-grandson.

This theory  (Or the plea from one father to another) wouldn't explain why Aegon flew to Dragonstone first before calling off hostilities. 

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6 hours ago, Megorova said:

I have read theories, that maybe in that letter it was written, that Rhaenys Targaryen survived after the fall of her dragon.

The rest of this theory is super complicated, but the premise of Rhaenys being alive and captive in Dorne begs the question of why Meria didn't use her as a hostage at the outset of the Dornish war.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Denam_Pavel said:

They didn't have Rhaenys' blood before. And dragons died and the magic went away. The moment Pyromancers noticed their own magic worked again, they went "have you seen any dragons?" And all these histories are written by Maesters, those people who hated magic and Marwyn tells us killed the last dragons to get rid of it.

They would've had Rhaenys' blood for three years since she died at Hellholt 3 years before the letter. That's 3 years where Dorne got extra-glassed by the IT.

Edited by sleath56

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13 hours ago, Ser Uncle P said:

This theory  (Or the plea from one father to another) wouldn't explain why Aegon flew to Dragonstone first before calling off hostilities. 

Of course it does explain everything. He went to Dorne, to see for himself, whether what's written in the letter is truth.

What if Rhaenys was pregnant, at the time of her arrival to Dorne, and later, after death of her dragon, gave birth to Aegon's child, and then died during childbirth? In this case Aegon would have wanted to go to Dorne, to see that baby, to confirm, that it's his baby, with silver-gold hair and violet/purple/lilac/or indigo eyes of Targaryens. To confirm, that there is a baby.

Or the baby was Rhaenys', but wasn't Aegon's. The father could have been Nymor (if the baby was born after 10 AC). In this case "the plea from one father to another" gets a totally new meaning. I.e. - each of them had a child, born by the same woman.

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I kinda like "lighter" theories that have more positive outlook on the people involved and reasons for ending the war.

It was theorized by some that was written by Rhaenys  herself, on her deathbed, asking the Aegon to stop the war, maybe she was cared for by the Dornish after long time there and got to see them as human beings and tried to fix things. 

It is also possible that Aegon left after reading it to Dragonstone to do sort of burning ceremony if her body was returned.

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17 hours ago, Megorova said:

Of course it does explain everything. He went to Dorne, to see for himself, whether what's written in the letter is truth.

What if Rhaenys was pregnant, at the time of her arrival to Dorne, and later, after death of her dragon, gave birth to Aegon's child, and then died during childbirth? In this case Aegon would have wanted to go to Dorne, to see that baby, to confirm, that it's his baby, with silver-gold hair and violet/purple/lilac/or indigo eyes of Targaryens. To confirm, that there is a baby.

Or the baby was Rhaenys', but wasn't Aegon's. The father could have been Nymor (if the baby was born after 10 AC). In this case "the plea from one father to another" gets a totally new meaning. I.e. - each of them had a child, born by the same woman.

Aegon didn't visit Dorne until 10 years after the war. His visit to Dorne alone to celebrate the 10th anniversary of peace alone invalidates the logic of the more edgy letter theories.

 

On 5/7/2019 at 9:40 PM, Syl of Syl said:

The rest of this theory is super complicated, but the premise of Rhaenys being alive and captive in Dorne begs the question of why Meria didn't use her as a hostage at the outset of the Dornish war.

Which is why any scenario where Rhaenys survives beggars a suspension of disbelief. 

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7 hours ago, sleath56 said:

Aegon didn't visit Dorne until 10 years after the war. His visit to Dorne alone to celebrate the 10th anniversary of peace alone invalidates the logic of the more edgy letter theories.

Yes, I was a bit mistaken - after reading that letter, he went alone to Dragonstone, not to Dorne. Which doesn't mean, that Martells couldn't have brought the baby, or even Rhaenys together with the baby to Dragonstone, just to show to Aegon, that there is a baby.

Though 10 years later, Aegon didn't went to Dorne alone. He took Aenys with him. The question is, why only Aenys, and not Maegor too? Maybe, because he wanted to introduce Aenys to his brother (half-brother)? This also explains, why Maegor wasn't part of that party, or part of alliance against the Vulture King - because, unlike Aenys and the Vulture King, Maegor wasn't Rhaenys' child.

And the reason why Martells didn't used Rhaenys as a hostage, also could be explained. Prior 13 AC, when Nymor has finally contacted Aegon about what really happened with Rhaenys, at that time his mother was already dead, and he became ruling Prince of Dorne. It's possible, that Meria was against revealing to Targaryens, that Rhaenys had survived. Because for her it was personal. She has already met Rhaenys once, so it's likely that since then she had a grudge against her, and thus didn't allowed her to contact her family, or to inform them that she's alive. Meria wanted to make them suffer, and to keep thinking that Rhaenys is dead, and to keep Rhaenys separated from her family. But while Rhaenys was held as a secret prisoner of Martells, she and Prince Nymor fell in love (and maybe even had a baby together).  So after Nymor's mother died, he allowed Rhaenys to contact her family. Though by that time Rhaenys was already liking living in Dorne, and being a single wife (Nymor's), instead of sharing her husband, how she had to do with Aegon and Visenya (evidence of her not liking being not her husband's only woman, was her affairs with other men). Or something like that.

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3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Yes, I was a bit mistaken - after reading that letter, he went alone to Dragonstone, not to Dorne. Which doesn't mean, that Martells couldn't have brought the baby, or even Rhaenys together with the baby to Dragonstone, just to show to Aegon, that there is a baby.

Though 10 years later, Aegon didn't went to Dorne alone. He took Aenys with him. The question is, why only Aenys, and not Maegor too? Maybe, because he wanted to introduce Aenys to his brother (half-brother)? This also explains, why Maegor wasn't part of that party, or part of alliance against the Vulture King - because, unlike Aenys and the Vulture King, Maegor wasn't Rhaenys' child.

And the reason why Martells didn't used Rhaenys as a hostage, also could be explained. Prior 13 AC, when Nymor has finally contacted Aegon about what really happened with Rhaenys, at that time his mother was already dead, and he became ruling Prince of Dorne. It's possible, that Meria was against revealing to Targaryens, that Rhaenys had survived. Because for her it was personal. She has already met Rhaenys once, so it's likely that since then she had a grudge against her, and thus didn't allowed her to contact her family, or to inform them that she's alive. Meria wanted to make them suffer, and to keep thinking that Rhaenys is dead, and to keep Rhaenys separated from her family. But while Rhaenys was held as a secret prisoner of Martells, she and Prince Nymor fell in love (and maybe even had a baby together).  So after Nymor's mother died, he allowed Rhaenys to contact her family. Though by that time Rhaenys was already liking living in Dorne, and being a single wife (Nymor's), instead of sharing her husband, how she had to do with Aegon and Visenya (evidence of her not liking being not her husband's only woman, was her affairs with other men). Or something like that.

The problem with the Rhaenys' child theory is that it's literally fanfiction. If she somehow had a child, this child's only purpose would've been to serve as cuckoldry fetish for GRRM since it's never mentioned again.

The entire scenario of the letter and the Dornish success against Aegon isn't grounded in plausibility or logic so while it's unfortunately not impossible to rule out that Meria was stupid enough to keep Rhaenys for 3 years, it would make her a complete moron, which goes against her Mary Sue nature in WOIAF and Fire & Blood. The entire country was glassed for 3 years because Rhaenys died, if Meria had her alive, she would've immediately sued for peace. On another note, we do get the full dialogue of Rhaenys meeting in Sunspear and its tone was completely cordial so the idea that Meria had a *personal* grudge against her is implausible.

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