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The Younger More Beautiful Another? Queens or Noble Ladies or Princesses

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On 2/22/2019 at 5:59 AM, Rufus Snow said:

Note Maggy does not say 'another queen' - which would be incontrovertible, but simply 'another' which could just be sloppy grammar on her part, or it could equally be that she meant 'another' in the sense of 'someone else'.

 

So that leaves the field open to men too.

It could also be Cersei herself, when she looks in the mirror. A twist on the evil queen from Snow White.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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IMHO Its Myrcella.
 

Quote

Aye. Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear


What Cersei holds dear is power. But she only rules through her children. the books won´t go Hbo´s way. That´s just dumb, Cersei has no claim on the iron throne. She won´t be queen in her own right. She will be Queen Regent (once the tyrells are defeated) until one of her children becomes an adult (which wont happen of course), or the someone else takes the throne and kills them (which is of course what Cersei will fear of the prophecy once Dany arrives westeros).

The Tv Show made Myrcella die of poison, and Tommen commit suicide. In the books is tommen who will die of poison (Tyene´s doing of course), to pave way for Myrcella´s ascension to the throne and the final act of the KL´s storyline. 
Show tommen, had a season of defiance against her mother. Making pacts with the Sparrow to undermine her and so on. This of course is non sense in the books because tommen is like 5 years old... but myrcella is older. Smarter. Strong willed.  She is a nice girl. She won´t put up with Cersei´s madness quietly. 

When Daenerys arrives, Cersei will fear fate. Younger queen and the most beautiful woman in the world (some say). Cersei of course thinks physical beauty is one of the few weapons women can possess. She won´t think of Myrcella as a potential candidate for YMBQ (the injuries will also help here), therefore the reader won´t be expecting it. 
But when KL is starving, besieged, under threat of being burnt, Myrcella, who is a kind person (a different sort of beauty), will want to surrender the throne, give up the city to spare its people (jaime will have tell her by now the truth about the twincest)... .Cersei will of course refuse,  and probably have her locked up in some of Maegors Keep´s towers. You see where this is going... To save her people and end the war, Myrcella will jump, hence stripping away Cerseis power.. this is when Cersei goes full mad, and triggers the Mad Queen Widlfyre plan.

futheremore, theres a theme in asoiaf of princesses committing suicide. Gael, Helaena, Jaehaera, Aelora...

Edited by LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse

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On ‎2‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 8:59 AM, Rufus Snow said:

Did Maggy the Frog actually say it was a younger more beautiful queen, or did Cersei just assume that's what she meant (as do many readers)?

Note Maggy does not say 'another queen' - which would be incontrovertible, but simply 'another' which could just be sloppy grammar on her part, or it could equally be that she meant 'another' in the sense of 'someone else'.

 

It's clear Cersei assumes the queenliness of 'another', but I'm tempted to suspect an ulterior motive to the sloppy grammar (espcially as it's GRRM :thumbsup:)

This slightly hazy memory could be part of a set up... because Maggy never said explicitly, 'another queen'; although the phrase used implies 'another queen', it cannot be taken as 100% conclusive. And generally I find it worth noticing those occasions where GRRM skips a chance to state something with absolute certainly.

Sooo.... Brienne could fit the frame, for my money, with Jaime being all Cersei 'holds dear'.

This.

What Maggy tells Cersei is full of this sort of thing to screw with her head because she ticked Maggy off. The first part of Maggy's answer is always a direct, simple answer. Maggy's a lot like a genie here in lots of ways (both imagery and the 3 questions thing) and what she offers freely is poisoned.

For example, Cersei asks about kids and Maggy says a simple yes. The second part of her answer which she offers on her own is telling Cersei that the king will cheat on her all of the time ensuring Cersei goes into her marriage paranoid and already hating him which helps to sabotage the whole thing before it even starts. 

AFFC Cersei VIII

"Will the king and I have children?" she asked.

"Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you."

 

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On 2/20/2019 at 2:36 PM, Sophia [email protected] said:

Meera Reed

Myrcella Baratheon - NO. "Gold will be their crowns and gold their shrouds". Cersei will bury her daughter. And it's Myrcella LANNISTER.

Val The Wilding Princess - What, and sit on a dangerous chair in the hot, sweltering south while spineless men kneel to her? Enforce "the King's Law", while she'd always been a lawless woman? NO.

Shireen Baratheon - NO. True, according to Stannis, Shireen is "a princess", but she wasn't particularly attractive before greyscale, and looks much worse afterwards. And "inner beauty" is something Cersei would be unable to recognize.

Brienne Tarth - Ditto "no" on the beauty front, but Brienne would seem to have or be gaining many of the characteristics we'd like to see in a queen. (See previous threads).

Sansa Stark

Arya Stark - What, "Old Horseface"? Sadly, no.

Daenerys Targaryen

Arianne Martell

Margaery Tyrell

Asha GreyJoy  Or Yara Greyjoy - NO; her nose is too big. Moreover, we know no "Yara" in this place.

Lyanna Morment to marry Rickon -Heh. By now, Rickon is close enough to being a bear for Mormont women to consider him.

Please add your ideas:  My favorite is Val The Wilding and Arianne Martell and Shireen Baratheon

My favorites:

1. Daenerys Targaryen

2. Margaery Tyrell, at least until Dany arrives

A second thought as far as beauty goes: Cersei had been getting kind of blowsy and thick-waisted, as a result of constantly pickling her brain in a variety of wines; moreover, she's gotten older, has borne three children (and that really gives gravity an assist). True, she slimmed down in her cell just prior to her Walk of Shame, but she's not the beautiful golden child that she was in her teens. So many, many young women can now qualify as "more beautiful." And, I do believe that when Maggy the Frog said "more beautiful", she was speaking in terms Cersei would understand. (I also think one could make a great case otherwise, for what it's worth!)

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On 2/20/2019 at 4:36 PM, Sophia [email protected] said:

Meera Reed

Myrcella Baratheon

Val The Wilding Princess

Shireen Baratheon

Brienne Tarth

Sansa Stark

Arya Stark

Daenerys Targaryen

Arianne Martell

Margaery Tyrell

Asha GreyJoy  Or Yara Greyjoy

Lyanna Morment to marry Rickon

 

Please add your ideas:  My favorite is Val The Wilding and Arianne Martell and Shireen Baratheon

 

My favorite for the younger, more beautiful queen is Daenerys Targaryen.  

The list is really shorter.  It's down to Daenerys Targaryen and Margaery Tyrell.  

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How is there any doubt? 

 

Cersei smiled. "The fat old fool may have been loyal to the Starks in his own way, but with the wolves of Winterfell extinguished - "

"Your Grace has forgotten the Lady Sansa," said Pycelle.

The queen bristled. "I most certainly have not forgotten that little she-wolf." She refused to say the girl's name. "I ought to have shown her to the black cells as the daughter of a traitor, but instead I made her part of mine own household. She shared my hearth and hall, played with my own children. I fed her, dressed her, tried to make her a little less ignorant about the world, and how did she repay me for my kindness? She helped murder my son. When we find the Imp, we will find the Lady Sansa too. She is not dead . . . but before I am done with her, I promise you, she will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss."

 

There is no poetic justice without Sansa

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4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

How is there any doubt? 

Well, I have my doubts, but that was a great Cersei quote. It really illustrates how self-delusional she is. Lying is one thing, and it's bad; telling a lie and then believing it yourself as the "new reality" is (I hate to use the word) madness.

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34 minutes ago, zandru said:

Well, I have my doubts, 

Is it Sansa being a Queen that you doubt?

Quote

I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now . . . it is a good thing that I thrive on chaos. What little peace and order the five kings left us will not long survive the three queens, I fear."

or do you doubt Sansas beauty? 

Quote

"Sansa was a lady at three, always so courteous and eager to please. She loved nothing so well as tales of knightly valor. Men would say she had my look, but she will grow into a woman far more beautiful than I ever was, you can see that.

 

34 minutes ago, zandru said:

but that was a great Cersei quote. 

So great. One of my favorite in affc, maybe asoiaf

34 minutes ago, zandru said:

It really illustrates how self-delusional she is. Lying is one thing, and it's bad; telling a lie and then believing it yourself as the "new reality" is (I hate to use the word) madness.

As we see Sansa certainly is a trigger for Cersei, the following paragraph is the SC trying not to react to Cerseis scary outburst.

Though im not sure how off Cersei truly was 

41 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I made her part of mine own household. She shared my hearth and hall, played with my own children. I fed her, dressed her, tried to make her a little less ignorant about the world

this is all true. In Cerseis mind, perhaps now if not then, Sansa betrayed her. They have one of the strangest and most fascinating relationships in asoiaf, but their acquaintance isnt over yet, theyll meet again and when they do Sansa will cast her down and take everything she holds dear

Edited by Hugorfonics

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16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

They have one of the strangest and most fascinating relationships in asoiaf, but their acquaintance isnt over yet, theyll meet again and when they do Sansa will cast her down and take everything she holds dear

Eh. We can read exactly the same texts (good quotes, by the way!) and interpret them in different ways. I see Sansa picking up Cersei's habit of altering her memories to make herself come out better. That's not actually good.

About Sansa's beauty - sure, we get it thrust into our faces every time she's on the page. Nobody is questioning that. But Daenerys is also beautiful, as is Margaery, and Arianne, and Val, and undoubtedly lots more. Still lots of potential candidates, particularly since Cersei has lowered the bar.

On 2/23/2019 at 3:06 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

So that leaves the field open to men too.

Heh, heh, heh... maybe Loras? Cersei has been told that Ser Loras has been horribly injured, with massive facial scars. I would like to believe that they're lying to Cersei. After all, her formal position at this point is Dowager, or at best Queen Mother, and she's lost a lot of her mystique by her naked trek down Main Street.

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42 minutes ago, zandru said:

 (good quotes, by the way!)

(Always)

42 minutes ago, zandru said:

Eh. We can read exactly the same texts (good quotes, by the way!) and interpret them in different ways.

What quote do you think we are interpreting differently? Petyrs?

42 minutes ago, zandru said:

I see Sansa picking up Cersei's habit of altering her memories to make herself come out better. That's not actually good.

Aside from Sandors kiss when does she do that?

Or Cersei? She truly belives, or strongly suspects, that Sansa was an accomplice to the murder of Joff

42 minutes ago, zandru said:

About Sansa's beauty - sure, we get it thrust into our faces every time she's on the page. Nobody is questioning that. But Daenerys is also beautiful, as is Margaery, and Arianne, and Val, and undoubtedly lots more. Still lots of potential candidates, particularly since Cersei has lowered the bar.

Word. Beauty is subjective. For what its worth Cersei doesnt believe Margery is prettier then her

Quote

Queen you shall be, the old woman had promised, with her lips still wet and red and glistening, until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.

Cersei glanced past Tommen, to where Margaery sat laughing with her father. She is pretty enough, she had to admit, but most of that is youth. Even peasant girls are pretty at a certain age, when they are still fresh and innocent and unspoiled, and most of them have the same brown hair and brown eyes as she does. Only a fool would ever claim she was more beautiful than I. The world was full of fools, however. So was her son's court.

 

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2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

What quote do you think we are interpreting differently?

Oh, no! I'm not getting into the Sansa Wars. There must be a few hundred such threads out there, and everything that could conceivably be said has, many times over.

If Cersei doesn't think Margaery is beautiful, I suspect she downplays Sansa, too. Perhaps more importantly, Cersei is right on in noticing that youth is a major factor in beauty. Obviously, not all young girls are beautiful, or even pretty - but many fewer retain their good looks with time. Of course, the whole "beauty" deal is irrelevant for men, in Westeros and beyond. Particularly since nearly everyone conceals his entire face and neck with massive growths of beard.

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9 hours ago, zandru said:

Oh, no! I'm not getting into the Sansa Wars.

Lol, well if you decide to later, Hugor should lead the van.

9 hours ago, zandru said:

 There must be a few hundred such threads out there, and everything that could conceivably be said has, many times over.

No doubt. However Sansas not special in that regard, yet that hasnt stopped us from returning to the forum

9 hours ago, zandru said:

If Cersei doesn't think Margaery is beautiful, I suspect she downplays Sansa, too. Perhaps more importantly, Cersei is right on in noticing that youth is a major factor in beauty. Obviously, not all young girls are beautiful, or even pretty - but many fewer retain their good looks with time. 

Perhaps. Yet the two main contestants, Sansa and Dany, are respectively entering teenagehood and adulthood, time should only be a positive for their looks in the upcoming books

9 hours ago, zandru said:

Of course, the whole "beauty" deal is irrelevant for men, in Westeros 

Indeeed. Im pretty sure another refers to another queen, thusly a woman. 

(Though if prophesies are like dragons and genders can switch then perhaps the valanqor is younger sister. And whos Cerseis little sister? Her little brothers wife of course)

9 hours ago, zandru said:

and beyond. Particularly since nearly everyone conceals his entire face and neck with massive growths of beard.

Im not good at judging another dudes face, but mines easier. Currently Ive got a trimmed coat of a beard upon my face, but even wolfing, Im still a beaut ;)

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Yes, there should be a beauty twist so I like the idea of the author downplaying external beauty, which is why I like Brienne or a man. Since Rhaegar is the whole reason she wants her fortune read, Jon comes to mind. He will probably be maimed in the war like Loras. He's also Snow White.

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17 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

How is there any doubt? 

 

Cersei smiled. "The fat old fool may have been loyal to the Starks in his own way, but with the wolves of Winterfell extinguished - "

"Your Grace has forgotten the Lady Sansa," said Pycelle.

The queen bristled. "I most certainly have not forgotten that little she-wolf." She refused to say the girl's name. "I ought to have shown her to the black cells as the daughter of a traitor, but instead I made her part of mine own household. She shared my hearth and hall, played with my own children. I fed her, dressed her, tried to make her a little less ignorant about the world, and how did she repay me for my kindness? She helped murder my son. When we find the Imp, we will find the Lady Sansa too. She is not dead . . . but before I am done with her, I promise you, she will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss."

 

There is no poetic justice without Sansa

Hey Mr. Fonics.  Justice is hard enough to come by without adding the poetic requirement.  It's not  Sansa.  Daenerys or Margaery.  I like Daenerys a lot though a good case can be made for Marge.  She is of an age to become Jamie's girlfriend.  Tommens already in her purse.  Her family poisoned Joffrey. 

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5 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Hey Mr. Fonics.  Justice is hard enough to come by without adding the poetic requirement.  It's not  Sansa.  Daenerys or Margaery.  I like Daenerys a lot though a good case can be made for Marge.  She is of an age to become Jamie's girlfriend.  Tommens already in her purse.  Her family poisoned Joffrey. 

Hey Ms. Sedai. Writing poetic justice is hard, but Ive got faith in GRRM.

Cersei thinks its Margaery which makes me think its not. Marge isnt even a pov, more of a secondary character really. Dany would be the obvious other one being a pov and a queen, but shes got no history with Cersei.

Sansa though, now thats a relationship that needs a conclusion 

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Somehow, I can't help but worry that George RR will pull the rug out from under us and slot in somebody we haven't yet seen, or so obscure they've been under the radar. I'm still worried that My Hero Daenerys Stormborne will turn to The Dark Side and end up as a villain (as Tyrion seemed to). Far as we know, another of My Heroes, Jon Snow, is dead and if he comes back, will it be as a blue-eyed wight? A vengeance-driven Lord Snowheart? (heh) As for Arya, she's begun to understand her ability to skinchange and thus, what her "wolf dreams" mean - might she decide to operate Nymeria and her gigantic wolf pack remotely, to wreak the vengeance that location and vows deny Arya's physical self?

In short, I really want to see that next book!

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It doesn't really matter who the younger, more beautiful queen is. It's how Cersei interprets it that matters. The whole point of the valonqar prophecy is that it's self-fulfilling. Maggy the Frog says Melara is going to die, Cersei kills Melara. Maggy says the little brother will kill her, Cersei ends up pissing off her younger twin brother while trying to go after Tyrion, who she thinks is the valonqar. 

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Posted (edited)
On 2/20/2019 at 4:36 PM, Sophia [email protected] said:

Meera Reed

Myrcella Baratheon

Val The Wilding Princess

Shireen Baratheon

Brienne Tarth

Sansa Stark

Arya Stark

Daenerys Targaryen

Arianne Martell

Margaery Tyrell

Asha GreyJoy  Or Yara Greyjoy

Lyanna Morment to marry Rickon

 

Please add your ideas:  My favorite is Val The Wilding and Arianne Martell and Shireen Baratheon

 

For me Dani, Sansa and Brienne are the top candidates, while I think Cersei herself may have been threatened by Sansa(I certainly think so but Cersies POVs do not start until after Sansa leaves the city so we see no direct interaction from Cersei POV), and definitely Marge, based on her thoughts and actions in her Chapters.

I think the other part of the prophecy(about Cerseis kids dieing) rules out Myrcella as a possibility, so I don't think its her.

We also don't technically know if Val or Asha(I think she's younger than Cersei but as far as I remember we don't know her age) is actually younger than Cersei.

I mention this because the younger part seems the more important/easiest factor to identify of said prophecy.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all

 

P.S. I'm a big fan of the Martells and Arianne specifically, for this reason solely, I'm convinced they are all going to die, and have no Hope's for thier future.

Edited by Back door hodor
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