Stannis, the first lie and the false light

[kissdbyfire]

18 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I don't think so. But Mel wasn't at the Battle of the Blackwater either. Stannis said the sword glimmered prettily.

Here’s the quote:

“We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must . . . we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty. Melisandre swears that she has seen me in her flames, facing the dark with Lightbringer raised on high. Lightbringer!” Stannis gave a derisive snort. “It glimmers prettily, I’ll grant you, but on the Blackwater this magic sword served me no better than any common steel. A dragon would have turned that battle. Aegon once stood here as I do, looking down on this table. Do you think we would name him Aegon the Conqueror today if he had not had dragons?”

He seems to be talking generally... [the sword] glimmers prettily, and yet it was useless on the Blackwater. 

I am not disputing that it was glimmering prettily at the BotB, only saying that it always glimmers. And there are many instances where swords are said to glimmer throughout the books. I feel pretty confident that there’s nothing special about the sword, and it’s Mel and her magics and tricks - and more the latter than the former - that give the sword its special features. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

49 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I am not disputing that it was glimmering prettily at the BotB, only saying that it always glimmers. And there are many instances where swords are said to glimmer throughout the books. I feel pretty confident that there’s nothing special about the sword, and it’s Mel and her magics and tricks - and more the latter than the former - that give the sword its special features. 

There is nothing special about the sword. And Jon is also curious to see what it does in battle. Hopefully we get to see it in action at the Crofter's Village, with Asha likely present during battle. 

Clydas blinked. "A sword that makes its own heat . . ."
". . . would be a fine thing on the Wall." Jon put aside his wine cup and drew on his black moleskin gloves. "A pity that the sword that Stannis wields is cold. I'll be curious to see his Lightbringer behaves in battle. Thank you for the wine. Ghost, with me." Jon Snow raised the hood of his cloak and pulled at the door. The white wolf followed him back into the night." (Jon III, ADWD 10)

One thing of note with the sword is in Clash of Kings.

The king plunged into the fire with his teeth clenched, holding the leather cloak before him to keep off the flames. He went straight to the Mother, grasped the sword with his gloved hand, and wrenched it free of the burning wood with a single hard jerk. Then he was retreating, the sword held high, jade-green flames swirling around cherry-red steel. Guards rushed to beat out the cinders that clung to the king's clothing.

Jade-green flames sound like wildfire. We know she wouldn't need a ton of it. All she'd need to do is coat the blade, so perhaps she did what Thoros does with his swords. We know that after the wildfire has burned out, the sword becomes a total mess. It's something that Gendry brings up to Thoros and how he treats his swords.

Thrust in the ground, Lightbringer still glowed ruddy hot, but the flames that were dwindling and dying.
By the time the song was done, only charwood remained of the gods, and the king's patience had run its course. He took the queen by the elbow and escorted her back into Dragonstone, leaving Lightbringer where it stood. The red woman remained a moment to watch as Devan knelt with Bryen Farring and rolled up the burnt and blackened sword in the king's leather cloak. The Red Sword of Heroes looks a proper mess, thought Davos. (Davos I, Clash 10)

There's only one thing that Mel could have done with this sword that she called "Lightbringer" from the production she put together and that's trash it because it would have been completely useless. The sword Stannis currently has would be a different one.

[The Mother of The Others]

Or more artistic mages can dose it right to preserve the blade better once they have the magical background radiation to work with.

I guess we could see lightbringer happen for real with the sacrifice but done for the wrong reasons by the wrong people so it's burn magical but foul?

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

There's only one thing that Mel could have done with this sword that she called "Lightbringer" from the production she put together and that's trash it because it would have been completely useless. The sword Stannis currently has would be a different one.

Nice, I didn’t remember the sword burned green! 

To the bold, agreed. He may even be on his 3rd, or 4th, or 29th Lightbringer. 

[Springwatch]

Nothing special about a sword that shines with its own light? You guys are hard to impress. Stannis's magic sword is famous wherever he goes, and you can be sure that he'd complain if the light failed when he was in battle. Also people would notice if 'wildfire-ruined' Lightbringer kept disappearing to the workshop, and coming out again suspiciously new-looking. A sort of glamor is more likely - the ruby in the hilt fits the pattern of Mel's glamors.

Apart from its glow, Lightbringer acted like a normal sword during the Battle of the Blackwater. This could be because light magic doesn't serve much purpose during the daytime. The true test will be when the Long Night falls, when sun made steel might have real impact:

Quote

Old Nan nodded. "In that darkness, the Others came for the first time," she said as her needles went click click click. "They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins.... [AGOT - BRAN IV]

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

@Springwatch, even Stannis isn't impressed with his sword.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Nothing special about a sword that shines with its own light? You guys are hard to impress. Stannis's magic sword is famous wherever he goes, and you can be sure that he'd complain if the light failed when he was in battle. Also people would notice if 'wildfire-ruined' Lightbringer kept disappearing to the workshop, and coming out again suspiciously new-looking. A sort of glamor is more likely - the ruby in the hilt fits the pattern of Mel's glamors.

Apart from its glow, Lightbringer acted like a normal sword during the Battle of the Blackwater. This could be because light magic doesn't serve much purpose during the daytime. The true test will be when the Long Night falls, when sun made steel might have real impact:

 

But the thing is, there’s really nothing that impressive about Stannis’s sword... 

It “glimmers” all the time, as far as we can tell?  It we have tons of swords glimmering throughout... So, a sword that glimmers is not that big a deal. Sure, a sword that glimmers even indoors w/o any light sources nearby is different. But it still doesn’t make it a magical sword, or even a special sword. 

My understanding is that the sword is glamoured and it has different... “settings”, for lack of a better word.

Mel doesn’t have to be near it for it to glimmer, but for a true spectacle, like we’ve seen at the Wall, she has to be right there w/ her bag of powders. 

I’m actually super curious to learn more about that.

 

25 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

@Springwatch, even Stannis isn't impressed with his sword.

Yes! He’s not at all impressed!

“Melisandre swears that she has seen me in her flames, facing the dark with Lightbringer raised on high. Lightbringer!” Stannis gave a derisive snort. “It glimmers prettily, I’ll grant you, but on the Blackwater this magic sword served me no better than any common steel.”

 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 2/22/2019 at 12:31 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

1.  Stannis is already important by virtue of his role in the war for the north.  It is a costly war and counterproductive to the unity needed.  

2.  To slay the lie means to expose the lie and reveal the truth.  The truth of Azor Ahai has already been revealed to the astute readers and will be revealed within the story in the future.  Daenerys Targaryen is Azor Ahai.  That is proof that Stannis is not.  

3.  The first lie is the claim to Azor Ahai.  The second lie is the claim to the Targaryen throne.  The third lie is the claim to a dragon heritage. 

The weapon to slay the three lies are Dany's true identity.  Azor Ahai, Princess of Dragonstone and heir to Westeros, and the Dragon.  If we believe in the prophecy, and I do, the liars will be Stannis, Aegon, and Jon.  

 

[The Mother of The Others]

Naw.    The ninnies who are steering Daenerys may want her to think Jon is one of the lies she has to fight, but 'taint so.    The two powers of Ice and Fire want an armageddon battle, but Jon and Daenerys aren't going to give the Powers what They want.    Both Dannee's and Jon's first instinct is to not be an ass.   They'll not follow through on the endgame their handlers are pushing.   They'll hook up instead, flying naked over their respective armies while making the beast with three backs.

[Springwatch]

14 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Naw.    The ninnies who are steering Daenerys may want her to think Jon is one of the lies she has to fight, but 'taint so.    The two powers of Ice and Fire want an armageddon battle, but Jon and Daenerys aren't going to give the Powers what They want.    Both Dannee's and Jon's first instinct is to not be an ass.   They'll not follow through on the endgame their handlers are pushing.   They'll hook up instead, flying naked over their respective armies while making the beast with three backs.

(Well, most of it.)

The Undying say to Dany she must slay the 3 lies. Maybe her best answer is, why must I? Whose agenda is this anyway? Who are the Undying and what do they want?

[Springwatch]

21 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

But the thing is, there’s really nothing that impressive about Stannis’s sword... 

It “glimmers” all the time, as far as we can tell?  It we have tons of swords glimmering throughout... So, a sword that glimmers is not that big a deal. Sure, a sword that glimmers even indoors w/o any light sources nearby is different. But it still doesn’t make it a magical sword, or even a special sword. 

Swords glimmer, yes, but no one says, my gods! a magic sword! So we can only assume they glimmer with reflected light in a normal kind of way (except maybe Dawn? but I'm not an expert on Dawn.) Lightbringer is not just shiny, but shining - that's its party trick, and no-one is ever disappointed. Stannis reliably knows it's going to perform:

Quote

[at the Wall] ... Stannis drew the sword he called Lightbringer. "Here is your sword in the darkness." Light rippled up and down the blade, now red, now yellow, now orange, painting the king's face in harsh, bright hues. "Even a green boy should be able to see that. Are you blind?" [ADWD - JON I]

 

21 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

My understanding is that the sword is glamoured and it has different... “settings”, for lack of a better word.

Maybe something like that.... I've been thinking about the power source. Lightbringer doesn't seem to drain Mel. I think she must have put all the pain and effort into the original act of creation, so Lightbringer is now independently powered (either a magical battery, or plugged in to ambient magic - so the Wall that makes Mel strong also makes LB strong.)

21 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Mel doesn’t have to be near it for it to glimmer, but for a true spectacle, like we’ve seen at the Wall, she has to be right there w/ her bag of powders. 

Maybe not powders, but yes Mel is capable of putting on a great fireworks display. So this takes me back to the Lightbringer show she puts on at Dragonstone. It's terrible! It wouldn't convince anyone not already a fanatic.

As @Alexis-something-Rose points out, the green flames are almost certainly wildfire - created by alchemists, and not considered 'true magic'. So where's Mel's input? No fireworks. No mood-changing smokes. No glamors - she didn't even glamor the sword! Nor did she protect Stannis from the heat - he had to use heavy leather for that (not very convincing for a fire hero, that.) Finally, Stannis just wanders off, leaving the squires to pick up the sword for Melisandre.

As ceremonies go, it was a stinker. It doesn't make any sense. My only idea is that Melisandre doesn't really care what people think at this stage - the ritual was just the first stage in the manufacturing process (and maybe she didn't want additional magic interfering with that). Next stage is putting on the glamor, which is where the pain and effort start.

I really like the idea that Lightbringer has that burnt and blackened sword at its core, with a coating of light magic on top.  A black and unlovely sword fits Stannis to a T; it's the magical loveliness outside that he can't relate to.

A deceptive and false sword maybe, but it may work out that false things are no less potent than true ones. Wildfire is considered fakery, but it won the Battle of the Blackwater.

For what it's worth, I liked the theories that have dragons as 'true' Lightbringer. And there's a good case for the Night's Watch. But none of those unite iron and fire and sun - the things the Others hate - like Mel's sword does.

 

23 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

@Springwatch, even Stannis isn't impressed with his sword.

Stannis is the ultimate cynic. You're in good company.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

19 hours ago, Springwatch said:

As @Alexis-something-Rose points out, the green flames are almost certainly wildfire - created by alchemists, and not considered 'true magic'. So where's Mel's input? No fireworks. No mood-changing smokes. No glamors - she didn't even glamor the sword! Nor did she protect Stannis from the heat - he had to use heavy leather for that (not very convincing for a fire hero, that.) Finally, Stannis just wanders off, leaving the squires to pick up the sword for Melisandre.

I think she switched the swords. She used one for her mummer's show and coated with wildfire, knew the steel was going to be ruined, then gave Stannis another sword. She also tells us that she has powders in her sleeves that can make fire look green, blue, silver. So she could have been using that during her ceremony.

Davos's description of the sword is that it's a bloody mess, but Catelyn gives us the only description of the hilt we have.

As he neared, she saw that Stannis wore a crown of red gold with points fashioned in the shape of flames. His belt was studded with garnets and yellow topaz, and a great square-cut ruby was set in the hilt of the sword he wore. (Catelyn III, ACoK 31)

And we do find out in ADwD that Mel uses rubies for her glamors. If she managed to glamor herself as the woman that's been described. And if she's able to glamor Mance to look like Rattleshirt, then a sword is probably small potatoes to her.

20 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Stannis is the ultimate cynic. You're in good company.

Maybe I am a cynic. Melisandre has done things that should make anyone wary of her. But in the words of the dear departed Lord Renly (and part of one of the most hilarious exchanges in the series);

"Stannis, that's a very pretty sword, I'll grant you, but I think the glow off it has ruined your eyes [snip]" (Catelyn III, ACoK 31)

[Springwatch]

17 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think she switched the swords. She used one for her mummer's show and coated with wildfire, knew the steel was going to be ruined, then gave Stannis another sword. She also tells us that she has powders in her sleeves that can make fire look green, blue, silver. So she could have been using that during her ceremony.

Davos's description of the sword is that it's a bloody mess.... <snip>

That solves one problem - the wildfire damage - but it still leaves another problem, which is that the ceremony has no purpose, no product. It's not morale - if anything the ceremony came at a cost to morale, because Stannis becomes more cynical than ever, and people like Salla start saying that sword can't be Lightbringer, it's not made right.

Mel could have fixed this. She could have glamored the sword to stay red (and actually, why didn't she? why is the red sword of heroes now multi-coloured?) She could have added a bit of blood and sacrifice to the ceremony.

What she in fact did was sing - which makes a strong parallel with Mirri Maz, another mage trained in Asshai, who sang on the pyre in Dany's fire ceremony, the ceremony that produced the dragons (possibly true Lightbringer).

I take from this that Mel was trying for authentic magic in the traditions of her religion, and her role as singer left her no room for conjuring tricks. I'm going to guess as well that the sword was the focus of her magic, and was used as the core of Lightbringer.

Hopefully she used her skills to protect the sword from too much damage from wildfire! It has survived a few battles, but I wouldn't be too surprised if it broke at some point (actually, isn't the banner of the Second Sons a broken sword?)

I'm still fairly confident that false things and broken things can be powerful. It's easier to demonstrate for false things: Littlefinger is false, so is Cersei and her children, so is Jon, so is Duncan the Tall (according to some). A lot of people, in fact. Broken things that are strong include Moat Caillin, and of course Bran  - which should be enough really.

[Aline de Gavrillac]

 

On 2/24/2019 at 6:16 PM, 867-5309 said:

Lie 1 = Stannis is Azor Ahai.  He is not.  

Lie 2 = Aegon/Young Griff is the heir to the Iron Throne.  He is not.

Lie 3 = Jon is a Targaryen.  He is not.  

Daenerys is all three:  Azor Ahai, heir to the Iron Throne, and true Targaryen.  She slays those lies one by one.

[rotting sea cow]

On 2/22/2019 at 8:06 PM, Lollygag said:

Lie is a weird thing to call an enemy. She's only needs to slay the lie, not the person. 

Of course. I don't think that Dany and Stannis will ever get engaged in direct conflict. However, the lie she is supposed to slay must be important enough and have weight in the narrative. My argument is that lie is not significant enough because it doesn't push the conflict forward.

 

 

On 2/22/2019 at 8:06 PM, Lollygag said:

The other visons made a point to show that Westeros is divided and this is bad. I hold that Jon is the Stone Beast. The lie to be slain is that these other guys can win the fight against the Others (Aegon is foreshadowed to choose to go against the Others/wights but "freezes") instead of Dany. 

Basically, these aren't Dany's enemies exactly, they're just competing leaders dividing Westeros. Dany sees the vision just as that person is beginning that journey to leader - Stannis with the sword, Aegon being hailed, the stone beast taking flight as explained in the thread above. This line of thought would imply that Stannis gains strength as a leader and this could def happen: if Jon is MIA for a while and Stannis regains Winterfell, Stannis easily holds north in the meantime. He frees Mance and the wildlings follow strength and Stannis has without hesitation welcomed them. If he breaks from Mel and her tree burning self (Shireen) and commits to returning a Stark to Winterfell, he'll have full support of the North & Wildlings. 

This is why I don't see Euron being the stone beast (besides not having seen any solid evidence). Euron will be obeyed out of fear, but no one will follow him like willingly, out of belief, out of love, as savior-type like Aegon is forseed to be, like Stannis is set up to be in the North, and like how Jon is set up to be eventually. 

I disagree here. Euron is being set up as a big threat to Westeros. It's also possible that in the verge of the Other's invasion he set himself up as a dragon mounted saviour.

Jon, on the other hand, is being set up as the hidden prince, Daenerys partner.

[rotting sea cow]

On 2/24/2019 at 2:14 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Maester Aemon is not wrong about what he's saying about what Mel is up to and that she deceives herself. Mel is not very good at understanding the flames and we see her do exactly what Maester Aemon says she's doing.

This is one of the best examples of it.

"Some may." Could the skulls in her vision have signified this bridge? Somehow Melisandre did not think so. "If it comes, that attack will be no more than a diversion. I saw towers by the sea, submerged beneath a black and bloody tide. That is where the heaviest blow will fall."
"Eastwatch?"
Was it? Melisandre had seen Eastwatch-by-the-Sea with King Stannis. That was where His Grace left Queen Selyse and their daughter Shireen when he assembled his knights for the march on Castle Black. The towers in her fire had been different, but that was oft the way with visions. "Yes. Eastwatch, my lord." (Mel I, ADWD 31)

She 100% misleads Jon here. Instead of saying I'm not sure or I don't think it is or giving him a description of the towers, she tells him that yes, the attack is coming at Eastwatch.

Renly's murder was a direct result of one of her visions. She has left chaos in her wake.

We don't know why she has zeroed in on Stannis, what she saw in her flames that make her believe so fervently that he is AA. We don't know what it is that led her to him. Did the flames whisper Stannis's name in the same way they whispered Jon's name and she decided she had to find him?

I enjoy Mel's character very much, but she's the worst and she's not helping anyone with the way she interprets her flame or how she went a step too far when she gave him the glamoured sword to try and sell it.

You are misunderstanding here, imho. Melisandre is a tragic character. She has firm convictions but fails to understand she is also a tool for powers beyond her understanding.  She is where she must be and does what she has to do. I think it is a very difficult position to be in a place where even your mistakes are necessary.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

You are misunderstanding here, imho. Melisandre is a tragic character. She has firm convictions but fails to understand she is also a tool for powers beyond her understanding.  She is where she must be and does what she has to do. I think it is a very difficult position to be in a place where even your mistakes are necessary.

Having a different opinion from you doesn't mean I'm misunderstanding. I'm sure that she is where she has to be, but Mel wields whatever power she has in a very irresponsible way. 

I don't fault her for making mistakes. She got the girl fleeing from her marriage bed right. She got the girl wrong because she doesn't know what Arya looks like. 

The dead rangers, the knives around Jon Snow, she had gotten right and I'm sure she knows the names of the people who conspired against him because she is at Castle Black and knows who these men are. 

But then she outright lies about the attack on Eastwatch even though she has been there, knows what it looks like. There is nothing wrong with saying she isn't sure and give a description. This is her wielding her power in an irresponsible way because Eastwatch becomes a focal point even though there's a really good chance nothing is going to happen there.

She thinks Stannis is AA, so she gave him a shiny sword she may have glamoured to help fluff him up. 

So yes, her actions are helping lead the world into darkness. She is deceiving herself and everyone around her. 

[Lollygag]

8 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Of course. I don't think that Dany and Stannis will ever get engaged in direct conflict. However, the lie she is supposed to slay must be important enough and have weight in the narrative. My argument is that lie is not significant enough because it doesn't push the conflict forward.

 

 

I disagree here. Euron is being set up as a big threat to Westeros. It's also possible that in the verge of the Other's invasion he set himself up as a dragon mounted saviour.

Jon, on the other hand, is being set up as the hidden prince, Daenerys partner.

It's possible that Euron will pose as a savior or see the light at the last minute, but I just don't see it right now. Especially after the TWOW chapter. 

So: 

1. Stannis - savior fighting the Others. Not a threat to Westeros. Quite the contrary. 

2. Aegon - looks to be received as a Savior and is heavily foreshadowed to fight the Others. Also not a threat to Westeros in this sense. 

3. Euron - bad dude who might well be helping the Others. BIG threat to Westeros. He really doesn't fit here with Stannis and Aegon, at least given where he seems to be right now. 

Looks more like Stannis, Aegon and Jon will all be on the same side, but factions will split as to who to follow and that's very bad and sliding back into the Game of Thrones. Makes more sense to me that the HOTU is telling Dany that she needs to gather these leaders under her and her dragons need to be central to it all. 

If someone's a Jon/Dany shipper, Jon being one of the lies doesn't exclude them hooking up, getting married and starting a Targ Restoration HEA with lots of babies if that's what one's into. 

[The Mother of The Others]

Ms. Gag, that is precisely the way of seeing this that would best serve Daenerys and the world.

    My version of saying the same thing was going to start with the proclamation, "Shit!  The Undying visions are being taken at face value by us readers? The undying are showing some bias here, we should remember, at the same time they're being 'accurate.'   Undying want the other powers to tear each other apart, probably, whether it's necessary or not, because it gets rid of the HotU's competition- - - they'd especially seek to engineer a demolition derby of the world's magical heroes.  (Because if the heroes ever formed a justice league.....HoTU would most def be on justice's hit list.)   

The lie about Stannis will come when the realm sees him as the exact same boogey man Dany was shown in the vision.  At the time when he's really busting his butt and losing his soul for them, to keep them safe.   As a hero king forsaken.  Aegon and Jon and Stan aren't to be torn down, they're the active ingredients of positive change in Westeros whose efforts Dany needs to build upon!  To the extent Dany can be tricked into attacking these 3, she becomes the lie, the despot.  Dany's problem may "lie" in each of these 3 putting their pride before the good of the realm and insisting on doing it their way, alone, instead of getting on the same page and becoming a group of generals working the same problem.

[rotting sea cow]

15 hours ago, Lollygag said:

It's possible that Euron will pose as a savior or see the light at the last minute, but I just don't see it right now. Especially after the TWOW chapter. 

I don't mean that Euron will see the "light" but if he manage to become a dragonrider, he may pose as the last hope of Westeros in exchange of power and adoration.

 

15 hours ago, Lollygag said:

So: 

1. Stannis - savior fighting the Others. Not a threat to Westeros. Quite the contrary. 

Indeed. He is one of the few who take the threat seriously. That's why I'm started this thread. Stannis already "saved" the world (because the wildings were just

 

15 hours ago, Lollygag said:

2. Aegon - looks to be received as a Savior and is heavily foreshadowed to fight the Others. Also not a threat to Westeros in this sense. 

Where is foreshadowed that Aegon will fight the Others? I think the foreshadowing is stronger in the other direction, ignoring or becoming paralyzed in the face of greater odds, as happened against the stone men.

 

15 hours ago, Lollygag said:

3. Euron - bad dude who might well be helping the Others. BIG threat to Westeros. He really doesn't fit here with Stannis and Aegon, at least given where he seems to be right now. 

I don't necessarily think that the three visions are related to the fight against the Others, more like people who want to "supplant" Daenerys destiny.

 

15 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Looks more like Stannis, Aegon and Jon will all be on the same side, but factions will split as to who to follow and that's very bad and sliding back into the Game of Thrones. Makes more sense to me that the HOTU is telling Dany that she needs to gather these leaders under her and her dragons need to be central to it all. 

If someone's a Jon/Dany shipper, Jon being one of the lies doesn't exclude them hooking up, getting married and starting a Targ Restoration HEA with lots of babies if that's what one's into. 

I don't think there will be a Targaryien restoration, tbh. It doesn't mean that Jon and Dany won't hook up together. They will. Not for nothing there is a third fire to light and a third mount to ride. And yes, getting Jon at her side is fundamental to achieve her destiny.