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Let's suppose...


Ser Uncle P

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...Viserys I didn't remarry or was more forceful regarding the succession. 

 

Rhaenyra ascends the Throne and her um, "strong"  dragonlord son Jace is declared Prince of Dragonstone. Luke is declared heir to Corlys and Driftmark. 

 

There'd still have been a struggle of sorts to succeed her, no way would Daemons  sons by her tolerate being left behind the Strong lafs in the succession. Or would actual Velaryons agree to the riches of driftmark going to Luke or Joff as the Sea Snake's heirs? Not bloody likely.  

 

Pity, because any of Jace, Luke or Joff would probably have made a decent King or even head of house Velaryon. They had courage, and Jace showed original thinking with the dragonseeds and the Pact of Ice and Fire. 

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Actually I don't think Daemon's sons would have much a problem with Jace being king. Its said that Aegon III worshiped his three ''strong'' older brothers and visarys might not have been any different. Aegon probably never even wanted to be king to begin with so Jace sitting on the iron thrown would be fine with him. 

Its not the kids that could be a problem but Daemon himself. Maybe he would find it annoying that his flesh and blood would miss out on account of some ''strong'' older brothers and move to um....''fix'' that. On the other hand it could be equally possible he wouldn't care who his wife slept with or who'd sit on the throne after her as long as he got to be the most powerful man in Westeros during her reign. 

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Aegon and Viserys wouldn't have had a problem with their half-brother ruling. But their sons may have had a problem, if they had fathered some.

Daemon would have not been likely to outlive Rhaenyra, so he wouldn't have been really an issue. And by having his daughters marry the heirs to the Iron Throne and Driftmark things would have gone very well for him, anyway.

The guy doesn't come across as a particularly ambitious guy during the Dance, and if he had had issue with his stepsons this could and should have come up during the Dance.

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2 hours ago, Ser Uncle P said:

Viserys I didn't remarry or was more forceful regarding the succession.

Well okay, so this is a big change in the plot.  If Viserys had not opened the door by a crack to the Hightowers, the dance would not have taken place.  It is important to note that one can ascend to the throne even when there are dissatisfied parties.  I don't think a person can ever rise to rule with 100% approval.  You can't please everybody.  

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I agree with those that say that the problems wouldn't come from Daemon's sons but from Daemon himself. At the time of Viserys' death he was still a huge powerhungry asshole and with the absence of other faction to fight (greens), I do believe he could have easily turned on Rhaenyra's 'strong' sons. After all, it's very doubtful that he married Rhaenyra for love, more like that was his attempt to get closer to the throne, and he would have very likely tried to sideline Rhaenyra and her bastards in favour of his children. Heck, the situation might have escalated to a different type of Dance down the line.

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15 minutes ago, Dofs said:

I agree with those that say that the problems wouldn't come from Daemon's sons but from Daemon himself. At the time of Viserys' death he was still a huge powerhungry asshole and with the absence of other faction to fight (greens), I do believe he could have easily turned on Rhaenyra's 'strong' sons. After all, it's very doubtful that he married Rhaenyra for love, more like that was his attempt to get closer to the throne, and he would have very likely tried to sideline Rhaenyra and her bastards in favour of his children. Heck, the situation might have escalated to a different type of Dance down the line.

I  also agree, during and before the Dance we see lot of decisions: Blood&Cheese, use of Mysaria, wanting to give Betrayers Casterly Rock and Storm's End as reward, gifting Mysaria dragon egg, corrupting Goldcloaks from the start, starting a War in Stepstones but getting bored with it, also his advice regarding Greyjoys who attacked Westerlands even after war ended and  Velaryon fleet  had to be sent:

Quote

The greens of Aegon II Targaryen offered Dalton the position of master of ships and the admiralty to replace Ser Tyland Lannister, who had been made master of coin, if Dalton would bring his ships around Westeros to battle Lord Corlys Velaryon, the Sea Snake. Instead of leaping to the offer, Dalton waited to see what the blacks had to offer.[3] On the black council, Prince Daemon Targaryen suggested appealing to Dalton's bloodlust to bring him on the side of Rhaenyra Targaryen. Instead of asking him to sail to Blackwater Bay, Rhaenyra only asked for Dalton to attack her enemies

I feel that his capriciousness and flawed political moves would be destabilizing factor regardless of existence of Targaryen-Hightower branch, also we can't disregard other potential schemers like Larys Strong or Mysaria who might have had influence in turning people against each other.

Though any conflict that would happen wouldn't be as great as Dance and most of the Dragons would survive.

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1 hour ago, Dofs said:

I agree with those that say that the problems wouldn't come from Daemon's sons but from Daemon himself. At the time of Viserys' death he was still a huge powerhungry asshole and with the absence of other faction to fight (greens), I do believe he could have easily turned on Rhaenyra's 'strong' sons. After all, it's very doubtful that he married Rhaenyra for love, more like that was his attempt to get closer to the throne, and he would have very likely tried to sideline Rhaenyra and her bastards in favour of his children. Heck, the situation might have escalated to a different type of Dance down the line.

Daemon isn't exactly a very ambitious or calculating guy in 129 AC. He and Rhaenyra had no plan for the death of Viserys I. The guy was sick and got ever sicker, yet neither Rhaenyra nor Daemon had made preparations for the day the king died - unlike Daemon back in 101 AC when his own father died. Then he hired men to ensure his brother Viserys would take the throne after the death of their ailing grandfather.

This implies not only that Daemon and Rhaenyra didn't actually expect Otto and Alicent to steal Rhaenyra's throne, but also that Daemon himself had made no preparation to ensure he became the big guy at Rhaenyra's new court.

The fact that Daemon had no issue with his daughters being betrothed to Rhaenyra's eldest sons and the fact that he actually avenged Lucerys after his death, there is actually no internal evidence that he wanted to advance his sons at the cost of the Velaryon boys.

If Daemon had wanted to see his Aegon on the Iron Throne, one would expect him to actually have some sort of relationship or connection or interest in the boy. But there is absolutely none of that in the text. Daemon was on Dragonstone for nine years, but he has no connection that we know of either to his daughters or sons.

That is not the behavior of a man who has a dynastic agenda. Daemon once personally coveted the Iron Throne, apparently, but that is a separate issue.

1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

I  also agree, during and before the Dance we see lot of decisions: Blood&Cheese, use of Mysaria, wanting to give Betrayers Casterly Rock and Storm's End as reward, gifting Mysaria dragon egg, corrupting Goldcloaks from the start, starting a War in Stepstones but getting bored with it, also his advice regarding Greyjoys who attacked Westerlands even after war ended and  Velaryon fleet  had to be sent.

During the Dance the man clearly has run out of steam. Young Daemon would have just taken their dragons to burn down KL in 129 AC to settle the matter. Instead, the guy is reluctant to start open hostilities. After Rhaenyra sits the throne, he comes up with rather stupid ideas and fails to actually amass formal and informal power into his own hands. Instead, he continues his affair with his aging former paramour and then leaves court and has whatever thing he has with a common girl. When his wife and paramour drive a dagger in his heart, he doesn't fight back or flies away with Nettles, he throws away his life.

Whatever the man may have done in his youth - there was little to nothing left of that guy in the years that mattered.

 

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

out of steam. Young Daemon would have just taken their dragons to burn down KL in 129 AC to settle the matter. Instead, the guy is reluctant to start open hostilities. After Rhaenyra sits the throne, he comes up with rather stupid ideas and fails to actually amass formal and informal power into his own hands. Instead, he continues his affair with his aging former paramour and then leaves court and has whatever thing he has with a common girl. When his wife and paramour drive a dagger in his heart, he doesn't fight back or flies away with Nettles, he throws away his life.

Whatever the man may have done in his youth - there was little to nothing left of that guy in the years that mattered.

 

Well Daemon did admit he lived too long so he was probably quite tired during the dance and while a colorful figure his long life didn't exactly give him a lot of success to celebrate. He repeatedly missed out on the throne, got exiled, had to give up his mini kingdom and was a poor member of the small council. 

As for Nettles. I heard theories she could actually be his bastard daughter and that he dotes on her based on his suspicion that this is the case. I'd prefer that actually. Daemon is the type to have many bastards and it gives him a manner of redemption. Spoiling and protecting Nettles because they are lovers is partly based on lust but doing so because she may be his daughter implies Daemon wants to be better for her and do things right for once. 

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2 hours ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

Well Daemon did admit he lived too long so he was probably quite tired during the dance and while a colorful figure his long life didn't exactly give him a lot of success to celebrate. He repeatedly missed out on the throne, got exiled, had to give up his mini kingdom and was a poor member of the small council.

The character is rather strange even in his so-called 'ambitious phase'. It is clear from the start of his brother's reign that he actually has no taste for the tedium of day-to-day rule. This is why he sucked while he sat on the Small Council. But people as moody and impatient and irresponsible as he is don't *really* have an interest in power.

Daemon apparently liked the glory and prestige that came with being the heir to the Iron Throne, and in that sense also aspired to the glory and prestige that came with being king, but he never actually wanted to rule.

And I daresay that he eventually realized that when he ended his 'King of the Narrow Sea' adventure. At that point, his main interest seem to have been to check his descent into obscurity by marrying Laena and then Rhaenyra. It seems to me he was perfectly fine with being a prince consort who can bask in the light of the throne, but is under no responsibility to actually rule or make decisions. As Rhaenyra's consort Daemon got everything he wanted without actually being forced to work or shoulder any burdens. He could continue his life as before. And that he basically did when his wife took the throne in 130 AC.

2 hours ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

As for Nettles. I heard theories she could actually be his bastard daughter and that he dotes on her based on his suspicion that this is the case. I'd prefer that actually. Daemon is the type to have many bastards and it gives him a manner of redemption. Spoiling and protecting Nettles because they are lovers is partly based on lust but doing so because she may be his daughter implies Daemon wants to be better for her and do things right for once. 

Yes, I think I laid out the best case for this idea. Nettles could also work as the old guy discovering something he never knew in a young girl, etc., but I find the kind of thing they had - even the sharing of a bathtub thing - as more reminiscent of a kind father-daughter thing than a proper love story.

Even more so, this helps to explain Mysaria's motivation better since she would have not been simply jealous but jealous of the bastard child Daemon had had with another woman. She wanted to avenge the child he caused her to lose.

And Daemon actually being broken by the letter he receives and identifying it as Mysaria's work implies, to me at least, that his later nonsensical actions also have to do with him feeling deeply hurt by the women he loved. A man who actually wanted to live with Nettles as his paramour would have likely decided to go with her. Daemon had friends in Pentos, he and she could have lived there. There dragons would have been welcome anywhere in the Free Cities.

And if you love a person in a romantic way you want to be with her. You don't just abandon her.

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14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

During the Dance the man clearly has run out of steam. Young Daemon would have just taken their dragons to burn down KL in 129 AC to settle the matter. Instead, the guy is reluctant to start open hostilities. After Rhaenyra sits the throne, he comes up with rather stupid ideas and fails to actually amass formal and informal power into his own hands. Instead, he continues his affair with his aging former paramour and then leaves court and has whatever thing he has with a common girl. When his wife and paramour drive a dagger in his heart, he doesn't fight back or flies away with Nettles, he throws away his life.

Whatever the man may have done in his youth - there was little to nothing left of that guy in the years that mattered.

Everything is mostly hypothetical, especially regarding people who  can be very changeable.

 Though I wonder  how would increased number of dragons with their long lifespan and how Targaryens lacked any formal rules about inheriting dragons and policy regarding their use effect the future Westeros.

Example for policies:  possible plans for expansion, creating other branches of house by marrying nobility or claiming territory, or just maintaining limited number of branches/dragonriders.

If not managed properly would  it cause different Dance further in time , or would they to create new Valyria with lack of lost knowledge of their craft and achievements.

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5 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Though I wonder  how would increased number of dragons with their long lifespan and how Targaryens lacked any formal rules about inheriting dragons and policy regarding their use effect the future Westeros.

Example for policies:  possible plans for expansion, creating other branches of house by marrying nobility or claiming territory, or just maintaining limited number of branches/dragonriders.

If not managed properly would  it cause different Dance further in time , or would they to create new Valyria with lack of lost knowledge of their craft and achievements.

A logical policy would be to favour marrying cousins over siblings. Precisely to avoid splitting the dragonriders into several remotely related branches.

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5 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

 

 Though I wonder  how would increased number of dragons with their long lifespan and how Targaryens lacked any formal rules about inheriting dragons and policy regarding their use effect the future Westeros

Not sure how one could have formal rules about "inheriting" a full  grown dragon.

E.G. Baelon rode Vhagar, then Laena had her.  But Vhagar had no bond with Daemon, and she fought him to the death, despite Daemon's closeness to Vhagar's old riders. 

Seems there's no set rules which dragon bonds with a particular dragonlord. Otherwise the new King would have automatically got the biggest dragon upon ascending to the Throne...

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28 minutes ago, Ser Uncle P said:

Not sure how one could have formal rules about "inheriting" a full  grown dragon.

E.G. Baelon rode Vhagar, then Laena had her.  But Vhagar had no bond with Daemon, and she fought him to the death, despite Daemon's closeness to Vhagar's old riders. 

Seems there's no set rules which dragon bonds with a particular dragonlord. Otherwise the new King would have automatically got the biggest dragon upon ascending to the Throne...

Maegor  took Balerion and with him the throne, Balerion lated was hijacked or hijacked Aerea, and in his old age bonded with Viserys. 

When Laena died , Aemond just ran in , hopped on his back and he had most powerful Dragon at the time.

Dragons average lifespan is what 200 years , while Westerosi on average life 50-60 years.  

Some sort of guidelines like : " first born child of that dragon rider has right to try to claim him after certain age , if he fails than other can  try to claim him , or limiting number of Dragons, or if they don't want limitsand plan to create new Valyrian Empire make better use of them, it is possible Dragonfire was used to build lot of infrastructure still in existence"

That amount is randomness in how Targaryens did things is not something You can build stable hereditary dynasty , in my opinion at least.

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One has to wonder how the "Faith" would have responded to the Strong boys as heirs to the Targaryen dynasty.  On the one hand, the doctrine of "exceptionalism" had taken root thanks to the wise rule of Jahaerys, but the taint of bastardry is quite another matter.  It was plain for all to see that the boys were bastards born of adultery, and who the father likely was.   

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25 minutes ago, Stallion That Mounts Texas said:

One has to wonder how the "Faith" would have responded to the Strong boys as heirs to the Targaryen dynasty.  On the one hand, the doctrine of "exceptionalism" had taken root thanks to the wise of Jahaerys, but the taint of bastardry is quite another matter.  It was plain for all to see that the boys were bastards born of adultery, and who the father likely was.   

It was also rumored that Prince Aenys wasn't the Conqueror's son. So what?

Harwin Strong doesn't look like Rhaenyra's sons as far as we know.

The Faith no longer had any power to challenge the Targaryens on anything, but even if anyone actually had openly dared to accuse Rhaenyra Targaryen of adultery and claimed that her sons children were not the seed of their father - it would have been rather easy for the queen to legitimize them, wouldn't it?

She also legitimized Addam and Alyn of Hull.

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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It was also rumored that Prince Aenys wasn't the Conqueror's son. So what?

Harwin Strong doesn't look like Rhaenyra's sons as far as we know.

The Faith no longer had any power to challenge the Targaryens on anything, but even if anyone actually had openly dared to accuse Rhaenyra Targaryen of adultery and claimed that her sons children were not the seed of their father - it would have been rather easy for the queen to legitimize them, wouldn't it?

She also legitimized Addam and Alyn of Hull.

Well, for one thing, lets start by separating foolish rumors from plain truth.  Rhaenyra was a full-blooded Targaryen (no question there) and Laenor was half Targaryen and half Velaryon (no problem there).  Her sons had no Valyrian features (big problem).  C'mon, it is one thing to turn a blind eye to the truth, but most of the learned people of Westeros knew what was amiss, especially given Laenor's proclivities.  And Strong was her chosen protector.  Everyone knew what was up.  Aenys was questioned quietly because of his lack of martial ability and overall weakness, as compared to his sire.  

Whatever condition you think the Faith was in, to think it was powerless is a bit naive.  Just look to the storming of the dragon pit to see what power religious zealotry can have over the masses.  I would not have been surprised if it was indeed the Faith that would have pushed Daemon to set aside the Strong boys as heirs.  Likewise, there were many pious lords who also voted for Viserys at the Great Council, establishing the precedent of male Targaryen claimants over the female.  I've no doubt they would answer another call to arms should it come to it.

To legitimize her boys, she must first acknowledge what they are.  You see no problem with that?  She would have to openly disgrace her dead husband, then hope there was no opposition to her legitimizing her bastards over true born Targaryen heirs.  Several true born heirs of House Velaryon certainly objected when Rhaenyra attempted to have Lucerys made heir to Driftmark.

  

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On 2/22/2019 at 4:10 PM, Ser Uncle P said:

Rhaenyra ascends the Throne and her um, "strong"  dragonlord son Jace is declared Prince of Dragonstone. Luke is declared heir to Corlys and Driftmark. 

I foresee two problems.

First, we have Rhaenyra's court. It's a deeply dysfunctional bunch. Rhaenyra herself can't resolve a domestic dispute without attempted murder and her husband Daemon has no problems assassinating people, since he was the one to murder little children and he was almost certainly the one to have Laenor and Strongs murdered. You can't have a stable regime with two murder-happy people on top. Worse still, you have to add Corlys to the mix. Corlys is NOT willing to have a strong boy as his heir, he replaced Joffrey with his own bastard at first opportunity. Add Lady Misery whose behavior before Rhaenyra's downfall is extremely suspicious and point to both lack of morals and her own ambitions. It's only a matter of time till they all start trying to have each other murdered/assassinated and eventual succession depends on who comes out on top. Since it probably won't be Rhaenyra, her sons' fate would depend on the victor and whether he/she has any use for them.

Second, you have Jace himself. I know people like to think that Jace was a promising prince, but if you take a sharp look at his actions, he was anything but. His diplomatic mission to the Vale and the North was a failure - his own kin Arryns sat out the war, Manderlys and Starks did pretty much the same, sending token forces instead of providing actual support Rhaenyra desperately needed. His idea to hand out full-sized dragons to random people was reckless and was bound to end in debacle. On one hand, he handed out WMDs to people with no allegiance to the Crown. On the other hand, he granted extremely potent symbols of power and legitimacy to what was considered scum of the earth in Westeros. Remember, Jaehaerys and his chosen representative based Doctrine of Exceptionalism on ability to fly dragons. And while Jace was brave, his bravery was rather foolhardy - he ended up rushing in and getting smashed in his first engagement. He had an overwhelming advantage in dragons, he had a fleet to support him, yet the battle ended up a complete debacle - Velaryon fleet was driven off with heavy losses, Jace himself was killed and Driftmark got sacked. To survive, Jace would need to marshal support for his cause, yet he failed at game of thrones and warfare both.  

 

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9 hours ago, Stallion That Mounts Texas said:

Well, for one thing, lets start by separating foolish rumors from plain truth.  Rhaenyra was a full-blooded Targaryen (no question there) and Laenor was half Targaryen and half Velaryon (no problem there).  Her sons had no Valyrian features (big problem).  C'mon, it is one thing to turn a blind eye to the truth, but most of the learned people of Westeros knew what was amiss, especially given Laenor's proclivities.  And Strong was her chosen protector.  Everyone knew what was up.  Aenys was questioned quietly because of his lack of martial ability and overall weakness, as compared to his sire.

Not everybody knew what was about. Those were calumnies spread by Alicent Hightower. And even she doesn't say to Laenor 'try again and I'm sure you'll get one who doesn't look like Harwin Strong', she says 'try again and eventually you'll get one who looks like you'. Meaning what she believed is that the boys were not Laenor's because they did not look like him, but she did not believe they were Harwin's because they looked like him. Harwin is just the guy they chose to be the true father because he was Rhaenyra's sworn shield and close companion.

Lucamore Strong was blond, not brown-haired.

FaB gives us ample examples of Targaryen who don't have prototypical Valyrian looks despite the fact that they were born from incestuous Targaryen unions - or unions of Targaryen and Velaryon - whereas there other striking examples of Velaryons looking very much like the dragonlords of old - like Daenaera Velaryon - despite the fact that she wouldn't exactly have a pure-blooded Velaryon-Targaryen, being the offspring of a very minor cadet branch of House Velaryon.

Just as Daenaera is a freak accident on the Valyrian looks side, Rhaenyra's sons could be a freak accident resembling non-Targaryen ancestors on the side of Rhaenyra's - on the Arryn side - or Laenor's - on the Velaryon and the Durrandon-Baratheon - non-Valyrian side.

As for Aenys Targaryen: There seems to have been ample contemporary evidence that Queen Rhaenys slept around. We don't have a candidate for the true father of Aenys, but that doesn't mean the Conqueror was the boy's father. In fact, the looks of both Alysanne - a common blond and blue eyes rather than purple - and later of Alyssa Targaryen with similar hair and her freak green eye - give us ample examples of the fact that the Targaryen bloodline may not have been as pure as the incestuous marriages of Aegon the Conqueror implies.

Sure, such traits could have come in through Alyssa Velaryon, too, but we don't know that they did.

And Aenys had such a sweet singing voice...

9 hours ago, Stallion That Mounts Texas said:

Whatever condition you think the Faith was in, to think it was powerless is a bit naive.  Just look to the storming of the dragon pit to see what power religious zealotry can have over the masses.  I would not have been surprised if it was indeed the Faith that would have pushed Daemon to set aside the Strong boys as heirs.  Likewise, there were many pious lords who also voted for Viserys at the Great Council, establishing the precedent of male Targaryen claimants over the female.  I've no doubt they would answer another call to arms should it come to it.

Daemon is not likely to have a say in Rhaenyra's own succession. He is an old guy in 129 AC, close to fifty. He is not likely to live to see the death of his wife. The Targaryens don't get that old, and Daemon's lifestyle doesn't make it likely he is going to live very old age, even if they did.

The Storming of the Dragonpit seems to have been madness caused by a single individual feeding on and fueling the fears of dragons in a particular situation. Anti-dragon resentment was still there among the remnants of the Poor Fellows, etc., but this has nothing to do with unproven claims of bastardy of dragonriders. The Faith wouldn't care about stuff like that. They never pushed Aegon IV to disinherit Daeron Falseborn, as far as we know.

There is no mentioning of pious lords supporting Prince Viserys.

9 hours ago, Stallion That Mounts Texas said:

To legitimize her boys, she must first acknowledge what they are.  You see no problem with that?  She would have to openly disgrace her dead husband, then hope there was no opposition to her legitimizing her bastards over true born Targaryen heirs.  Several true born heirs of House Velaryon certainly objected when Rhaenyra attempted to have Lucerys made heir to Driftmark.

Her husband is dead. If there was evidence that he was not the father of the boys this could be done. Rhaenyra was also the one who legitimized the Hull boys. She gave Corlys Velaryon his new heirs. She could have made her children trueborn Targaryens, too.

Vaemond Velaryon and his cousins were an ambitious and greedy ilk who wanted to steal the richest lordship in the Realm from Corlys Velaryon's own descendants. They were not about *the truth* but about what they could gain if their pushed aside Corlys' grandsons and his granddaughters - who would have been next in line if Rhaenyra's sons weren't Laenor's son.

Corlys and Rhaenys were perfectly fine with their Velaryon grandsons. They were their grandsons and their heirs never mind who their true sire was. If Laenor was not the father of Rhaenyra's sons they would have known, because they knew and lived with their son at High Tide. If they had had issues with his homosexuality and him not sleeping with his wife/fathering children on her, and if they had felt humiliated or angered by the sons Rhaenyra actually produced, they would have done something about that.

Most importantly and obviously they would have not been in team Black when the Dance finally began. But they were. Which means they either knew Laenor's children were his children, or they knew that and why they weren't his and didn't care.

Corlys' love and pride for his three grandsons is one of the most touching new little details in FaB.

The Hull boys only come into the equation after the unfortunate early death of Princess Rhaenys. If they were Corlys' sons then it is understandable why he wanted them to succeed him considering that sons are usually closer than grandsons, even more so if you have already lost two children you once had, and also the beloved wife who was their mother.

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