Is x character a psychopath?

[Foot_Of_The_King]

On 2/28/2019 at 1:50 PM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Reckon Roose is a psychopath? Or just a sadist? Or neither

Roose is the best example we have of a clinical socio/psychopath. Lady Dustin lays this out for us as clear as day with the whole “Roose has no feelings” spill she gives Theon. 

[Sigella]

9 minutes ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Psychopaths are born not made. 

This is debatable, though I’m not sure Arya really is a psychopath, I agree that her state is due to trauma.

Children cannot be diagnosed with psychopathy (anti-social personality disorder) but are called as having ”callous and unemotional traits” which is treatable unlike psychopathy. This argues against ”born not made” imo.

There is a genetic factor to psychopathy but it also correlates with trauma (= abused or neglected) or head injury so genetics isnt everything. Most people who have genetic vulnerabilty/trauma/head injury wont turn into psychopaths.

[Back door hodor]

On 2/28/2019 at 11:16 AM, Aegon VII said:

Big walder. I wrote a bit on it https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/144657-big-walder-analysis/

This is one of my favorites, very well done

[Texas Hold Em]

On 2/28/2019 at 11:16 AM, Aegon VII said:

Big walder. I wrote a bit on it https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/144657-big-walder-analysis/

Big Walder is not.  He's just very smart kid.  What he does to get ahead is what the nobles do.  Big Walder had empathy for the old goat farmer.  He also seemed to show his distaste for his cousin is becoming.  BW is that guy who takes no pleasure in killing but he will do it to keep himself safe.  It was only a matter of time before Little Walder became murderous ala Ramsay.  Big Walder can see this as a threat to his own safety.  And offed LW.  

[Moiraine Sedai]

Speaking of Big Walder.  He and Arya would make good adversaries.  He can be the successful foil to Arya. 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 1:30 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Let’s discuss which character you think is or isn’t a psychopath. 

Joffrey Lannister , Gregor Clegane are psychopaths .

Cersei Lannister is a sociopath .

[Yet another Arya !]

5 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Joffrey Lannister , Gregor Clegane are psychopaths .

Cersei Lannister is a sociopath .

I quite agree. We can distinguish the crazy ones (not even struggling with their sadistic tendencies), like Joff or the Mountain, from the sociopath ones (who can control their bad tendencies to achieve their goals in a rational way, without any empathy, that is right Brandon Greystark?) like Cercei (and the Tickler I guess).

The Hound and Arya are similar, they deal with their traumas as best they can (Arya and her kill-list, Sandor ending up to protect Arya)...But they are not psychopaths.

[Rondo]

On 3/5/2019 at 12:56 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Speaking of Big Walder.  He and Arya would make good adversaries.  He can be the successful foil to Arya. 

Thumbs up.  I like that.  

[Rondo]

On 3/1/2019 at 3:53 AM, The Transporter said:

 

She is that.  She killed the old man in Braavos to further advance in her training.  That man had done her no harm.  She killed Daeron the crow and felt no remorse.  The crow had done her no harm.  She tortured Rafford before killing him.  She is a psycho.  She even goes through identity crisis like Norman Bates.

Oh I think Arya skipped the identity crisis and went straight to psycho.  

[Sigella]

5 hours ago, Yet another Arya ! said:

I quite agree. We can distinguish the crazy ones (not even struggling with their sadistic tendencies), like Joff or the Mountain, from the sociopath ones (who can control their bad tendencies to achieve their goals in a rational way, without any empathy, that is right Brandon Greystark?) like Cercei (and the Tickler I guess).

The Hound and Arya are similar, they deal with their traumas as best they can (Arya and her kill-list, Sandor ending up to protect Arya)...But they are not psychopaths.

Nah, sociopath means: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sociopath anti-social personality disorder. It is a myth that there is a difference between the two. 

Some experts use it so the general populous won't mix it up with psychosis.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Sociopathy

[Yet another Arya !]

12 hours ago, Sigella said:

Nah, sociopath means: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sociopath anti-social personality disorder.

I though there was a slight difference between the two words: besides in your second link, we can read "Hare [an expert] contended that the term sociopathy is preferred by those that see the causes as due to social factors and early environment, and the term psychopathy preferred by those who believe that there are psychological, biological, and genetic factors involved in addition to environmental factors.Hare also provides his own definitions: he describes psychopathy as not having a sense of empathy or morality, but sociopathy as only differing from the average person in the sense of right and wrong."

I found another site explaining the tiny differences between sociopath and psychopath:

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/sociopath-psychopath-difference#1

(However I don't know if this site and baybe it is not trustworthy...)

I quote a paragraph: "A psychopath doesn’t have a conscience. If he lies to you so he can steal your money, he won’t feel any moral qualms, though he may pretend to. [...] A sociopath typically has a conscience, but it’s weak. He may know that taking your money is wrong, and he might feel some guilt or remorse, but that won’t stop his behavior."

So I believed that the main difference was the ability to control bad tendencies, but if we assume that the above-mentioned definitions apply, I was wrong: the difference would be the remaining of a conscience, even weak. I admit it is a very small difference, but that lets a room for further changes in the behavior of the character if he or she is "only" sociopath.

In this condition...well, almost everyboy is a psychopath in ASOIAF: Joff, the Mountain, Cercei, the Tickler, Ramsay of course...and a lot of guys I don't remember.

And we could consider the Hound and Aya as sociopath, due to their traumas, as you said Sigella in a previous message.

[Aegon VII]

On 3/1/2019 at 3:34 PM, Back door hodor said:

This is one of my favorites, very well done

Thank you! 

On 3/1/2019 at 4:16 PM, Texas Hold Em said:

Big Walder is not.  He's just very smart kid.  What he does to get ahead is what the nobles do.  Big Walder had empathy for the old goat farmer.  He also seemed to show his distaste for his cousin is becoming.  BW is that guy who takes no pleasure in killing but he will do it to keep himself safe.  It was only a matter of time before Little Walder became murderous ala Ramsay.  Big Walder can see this as a threat to his own safety.  And offed LW.  

Let’s look at your goat example. What part of this scene suggests empathy?

 

Big Walder followed him into the stables, leading his own mount. Reek stole a look at him as he removed Blood’s bit. “Who was he?” he said softly, so the other stablehands would not hear.

“No one.” Big Walder pulled the saddle off his grey. “An old man we met on the road, is all. He was driving an old nanny goat and four kids.”

“His lordship slew him for his goats?”

“His lordship slew him for calling him Lord Snow. The goats were good, though. We milked the mother and roasted up the kids.”

Lord Snow. Reek nodded, his chains clinking as he wrestled with Blood's saddle straps. By any name, Ramsay' s no man to be around when he is in a rage. Or when he' s not. "Did you find your cousins, my lord?"

"No. I never thought we would. They're dead. Lord Wyman had them killed. That's what I would have done if I was him."

[Aegon VII]

On 3/10/2019 at 4:53 AM, Yet another Arya ! said:

snip

I think the most important thing is understanding that it’s nuanced. I agree with the quote you provided as a general litmus test. The technical (medical) definition of the term psychopath really had to pivot due to its use in criminal proceedings, so I just hate it when people try to take one super specific definition and say it’s the only interpretation of the terms psychopath and sociopath. You can see a huge argument I had on it in the comments of my big walder analysis previously linked.

[Eddard Waters]

Would Roose Bolton be a psychopath or sociopath? We know he enjoys inflicting torture and rape, but he at least has some self-control, unlike his son.

[Aegon VII]

10 minutes ago, Eddard Waters said:

Would Roose Bolton be a psychopath or sociopath? We know he enjoys inflicting torture and rape, but he at least has some self-control, unlike his son.

Based on the way he talks about his son being killed by Ramsay I would say psycho

[The Commentator]

Bronn.  Maybe he's even worse.  

[Sigella]

On 3/10/2019 at 11:53 AM, Yet another Arya ! said:

I though there was a slight difference between the two words: besides in your second link, we can read "Hare [an expert] contended that the term sociopathy is preferred by those that see the causes as due to social factors and early environment, and the term psychopathy preferred by those who believe that there are psychological, biological, and genetic factors involved in addition to environmental factors.Hare also provides his own definitions: he describes psychopathy as not having a sense of empathy or morality, but sociopathy as only differing from the average person in the sense of right and wrong."

I found another site explaining the tiny differences between sociopath and psychopath:

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/sociopath-psychopath-difference#1

(However I don't know if this site and baybe it is not trustworthy...)

I quote a paragraph: "A psychopath doesn’t have a conscience. If he lies to you so he can steal your money, he won’t feel any moral qualms, though he may pretend to. [...] A sociopath typically has a conscience, but it’s weak. He may know that taking your money is wrong, and he might feel some guilt or remorse, but that won’t stop his behavior."

So I believed that the main difference was the ability to control bad tendencies, but if we assume that the above-mentioned definitions apply, I was wrong: the difference would be the remaining of a conscience, even weak. I admit it is a very small difference, but that lets a room for further changes in the behavior of the character if he or she is "only" sociopath.

In this condition...well, almost everyboy is a psychopath in ASOIAF: Joff, the Mountain, Cercei, the Tickler, Ramsay of course...and a lot of guys I don't remember.

And we could consider the Hound and Aya as sociopath, due to their traumas, as you said Sigella in a previous message.

You're right. Hare's definition might not be that a big deal considering it pretty much means "callous", though.  Borderliners and narcissists are callous too. Your link goes to something that looks very much like clickbait.

These are my five cents on the characters you listed:

Arya is a vigilante-killer, she has a high sense of morality and empathy - it just doesn't apply to the people she kills/wants to kill because they are too immoral. Arya doesn't torture anyone, when she kills she minimises pain and suffering (this applies to after she learns that a prick in the tummy is a cruel way to die). The Mercy chapter from WoW is a great example.

Cersei is a narcissist but not completely lack of empathy - she does feel sick over Senelle even though she thinks she "had to" in her blown up version of self-preservation. Although she condemns people to horrible deaths it isn't for the sake of their suffering but for Cersei's self-preservation. 

The Hound is severely depressed (which might affect empathy) and has PTSD (fire gives him flashbacks) but he doesn't completely lack for morality or empathy. We can't hold Mycah's murder too much against him because Milgram-effect. Also when he's with Arya he is an outlaw which would be super-stressful and thus making him less caring than he would be otherwise.

The Tickler is a psychopath but not a sadist because he doesn't seem to enjoy or mislike torture. Arya even thinks its a routine: "by the second day she could have asked the questions herself". 

Clayton Suggs, like Ramsay is psychopath and sadist which spells maximum damage and pain caused to victims. 

[Plain, Simple Tailor]

On 2/27/2019 at 5:08 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Gregor is a stupid beast who doesn't know any better.  

Nope. 

Ignorance does not excuse cruelty. Gregor knows better because even in Westeros there is some level of basic morality. Gregor Clegane is one of the closest things we will ever get in this series to someone who is pure evil. 

Him, Ramsay, and maybe Roose. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 hours ago, Sigella said:

Arya is a vigilante-killer, she has a high sense of morality and empathy - it just doesn't apply to the people she kills/wants to kill because they are too immoral. Arya doesn't torture anyone, when she kills she minimises pain and suffering (this applies to after she learns that a prick in the tummy is a cruel way to die). The Mercy chapter from WoW is a great example.

We don’t really know if the insurance man was too immoral to empathize with. It shouldn’t be ignored that she only  needed the mere possible  implication from a Master Assasain that the insurance salesmen was a bad guy to go and kill the guy. Yes, I know she’s seriously find a character fault for quite a while when scoping the guy out but I got the impression it was  50-50 chance she’d do it regardless.  I mean she’s still with the cult after the whole ordeal, she’s a smart enough girl to know the odds of her being asked to kill again is likely. And the next person could be a saint or devil. But, she doesn’t seem to ponder what she’d actually do when the time comes. Daeron, too she only knew he was a derserter-a crime that does warrant death, but given the cult she’s chosen to serve does she have room to judge? The Faceless Men have murdererd thousands, plenty of innocent, Hell I imagine the kindly old man’s crimes far surpass whatever Daeron has done.

Also, she doesn’t really have much time to actually torture the people she kills right? I mean the people she’s killed tend to be in a place where if she doesn’t do it relatively quickly it could pose a greater risk to her.

She does refuse to mercy-kill the Hound-leaving him to instead die an excruciating painful death.

[Varysblackfyre321]

I’m laying a bet on Mance Rayder being revealed to be a psychopath.  Doesn’t appear to have any umberage about any societal mores, he actively and kinda needlessly  puts himself in situations that could get him killed/tortured then killed(examples being traveling to WF to see Robert, modifying the Dornis man’s wife to a song that could have offended his audience of Northman).  There is a charm to the man but I get the feeling it’s more acting. That he doesn’t really care about the people he’s around. Like, it’s weird how, he doesn’t show real interest in the wellfare of his son right? He doesn’t ask Jon to see him or impart a message to him when the boy grows up or do anything to showcase his father cared for him.   Or isn’t shown or even to have been grief-striken over the relatively recent death of his wife he said he fell in love with after a short time meeting? I get the feeling he doesn’t really care about people and that he’s really working for the Others. I got this idea, when it’s shown Tormund asked to destroy Craster, and Mance stopped the man. Mance must’ve have known Craster was allighned with the others-otherwise why stop Tormund? It would only take 4 or 5  guys to go in bash the monster’s skull in and take the food, Craster has locked up and maybe steal the women/girls.