MushroomIsNoFool Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Something that kept my atention during reading F&B, was the repultion Dragons felt in cold weather. Three times Alysanne tried to drive Silverwing beyond the wall and three times the dragon didn't obey... When Jacaerys went to Winterfell, Vermax was pissed about the cold wind. So, inmediately i thught about the mission beyond the wall they made in the TV show... where Dany came to the rescue with Drogon, Vyserion and Rhaegal... and... What do you think? TV show runners just deliverately bullshitted us? this can happen in the novels? is there something special about Dany and her Dragons, and they'll actually go beyond the wall? Silverwing was pushed back by cold weather or by some magic forces from beyond the wall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 It is a hint that dragons are likely not going to be some magical miracle tools to defeat the Others. I don't think, though, Silverwing's reluctance should be taken too far. She was a pretty young dragon at the time, and is thus not necessarily representative of Vhagar or Balerion. But overall, the idea that fire-breathing creatures who are said to be fire made flesh like water, reign, snow, or ice well was always pretty stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Uncle P Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 1 hour ago, MushroomIsNoFool said: Three times Alysanne tried to drive Silverwing beyond the wall and three times the dragon didn't obey... When Jacaerys went to Winterfell, Vermax was pissed about the cold wind. So, inmediately i thught about the mission beyond the wall they made in the TV show... where Dany came to the rescue with Drogon, Vyserion and Rhaegal... and... What do you think? TV show runners just deliverately bullshitted us? this can happen in the novels? is there something special about Dany and her Dragons, and they'll actually go beyond the wall? Silverwing was pushed back by cold weather or by some magic forces from beyond the wall? Tinfoil hat time...Martin retconned Silverwing's refusal to cross the wall, after in Season 7 HBO Dany brought hers across. Previous books mentioned Silverwing at the wall without any bother. The novella of Princess and the Queen mentioned Jace bringing Vermax to visit the Starks with no issue. I don't think D&D "deliberately bullshitted us" on Dragons crossing the wall. Martin gave them a limited outline for the endgame. Not their fault there's limited material to go on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Uncle P Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: It is a hint that dragons are likely not going to be some magical miracle tools to defeat the Others. I don't think, though, Silverwing's reluctance should be taken too far. She was a pretty young dragon at the time, and is thus not necessarily representative of Vhagar or Balerion. But overall, the idea that fire-breathing creatures who are said to be fire made flesh like water, reign, snow, or ice well was always pretty stupid. Even a full grown beast like Meraxes was limited by heavy rain in the Battle at Storms End. For arguments sake, let's assume the dragons going beyond the wall will feature in final books. I wouldn't see Silverwing's refusal as contradicting this. Timing could be an issue. Obviously Danny's eggs hatched when her forefathers didn't as it was the optimum time (coinciding with the return of the White Walkers) The Others may have been still dormant when Silverwing was at the wall. No need for a creature representing "fire magic" to enter an area of "ice magic" as there was no balance to restore between the elements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 I'm rather believing Silverwing felt the Others/the Heart of Winter and did not want to mess with them. There is actually no reason to believe the Others were ever 'dormant'. They just didn't come down south, but that doesn't mean they weren't there and active. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Uncle P Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: I'm rather believing Silverwing felt the Others/the Heart of Winter and did not want to mess with them. There is actually no reason to believe the Others were ever 'dormant'. They just didn't come down south, but that doesn't mean they weren't there and active. Yeah that makes sense. I'm probably assuming they were "dormant" simply because they re-emerge at the same time as Dany hatching the dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 4 hours ago, Lord Varys said: I don't think, though, Silverwing's reluctance should be taken too far. She was a pretty young dragon at the time, and is thus not necessarily representative of Vhagar or Balerion. Perhaps, but at any rate Silverwing was older than any of Dany's dragons will be during the main series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis-something-Rose Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 The more I think of it, the more sense it makes to me that Silverwing wouldn't want to cross the Wall. The further north she goes, the colder it gets. Dragons exist in opposite to the Others. What the dragons love, the Others hate and vice versa. I don't think the dragons will fare well at all in extreme winter conditions and the Others do bring those conditions with them. If the dragons have to be grounded every time there's a storm (the storm at Winterfell was a very bad one) or simply refuse to fly because it's really cold, then they won't be of much use. And they're only two years old compared to Silverwing who was in her very early twenties when she flew to the Wall. I think the whole thing is going to be brutal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 2 hours ago, Ser Uncle P said: Yeah that makes sense. I'm probably assuming they were "dormant" simply because they re-emerge at the same time as Dany hatching the dragons. A lot of people make that mistake. My guess is that the Others/Heart of Winter could feel/see Silverwing when she were there, just as she felt them. And then later the Others/the Heart of Winter sent the Shivers to attack/kill Queen Alysanne and the other dragonriders. It didn't work, but they dealt her blow in the death of Daenerys. I don't think it is a coincidence that the Shivers came the winter after Alysanne and Silverwing had visited the Wall. 1 hour ago, The hairy bear said: Perhaps, but at any rate Silverwing was older than any of Dany's dragons will be during the main series. That is true, but Gyldayn tells us later that Silverwing was the most docile of the wild dragons (when Mushroom tries to mount her), so she may be lacking in ferocity. That means Vhagar or Balerion or even Drogon may have the strength and determination Silverwing was lacking back then. Even more so, we have to take Alysanne into account. She was a very nice and friendly person. Rhaena points out that Alysanne is Rhaenys whereas she is Visenya. This could mean Silverwing may have flown over the Wall if Alysanne had pushed her hard enough. 38 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said: Dragons exist in opposite to the Others. What the dragons love, the Others hate and vice versa. This is why I assume that the Others were always there but were not really making a move to cause a new Long Night. First there was Valyria and hundreds of dragons, and then the last dragonlords and their dragons moved to Dragonstone and then Westeros. Fewer then, but much closer. If your magic and existence is based on ice and cold and summers can be as long or longer than winters, and your potential mortal enemies have fire-breathing flying beasts of tremendous size, then you don't try to attack them directly. You only make proper preparation for that after those dragons are gone. And that means that mankind's clock began to tick in earnest from 153 AC onwards. Prior to that, the Others were there, thinking evil thoughts, etc. but they couldn't do much aside from creating reasonably bad winters and, perhaps, the occasional magical plague. 38 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said: I don't think the dragons will fare well at all in extreme winter conditions and the Others do bring those conditions with them. If the dragons have to be grounded every time there's a storm (the storm at Winterfell was a very bad one) or simply refuse to fly because it's really cold, then they won't be of much use. I expect the dragons to be of use when the weather is cold but still. They won't be of use at all during snow storms and blizzards. Not only because of the magical stuff but also because it should be very hard to see, target something, or maneuver in such a weather. However, we should also not underestimate the potential effects of dragon fire on the Others. Perhaps being close to that has very unpleasant effects on both the wights and the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Not the cold and not the Others. It was the Wall that stopped her. 1. It’s not like it is significantly colder 10 feet north of the Wall than 10 feet south of it. 2. Once the Wall falls the barrier holding back the Others magic will be gone. So if the dragon feared to enter a region where the Others’ magic was not blocked then the dragons are going to fear all of Westeros after the Wall falls. So not feasible. 3. The Wall stops magic. We know that. Dragons were created by blood magic. Conclusion, it was the magic in the Wall that repelled Silverwing, not some King of the Others sitting up at the North Pole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 7 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said: Not the cold and not the Others. It was the Wall that stopped her. 1. It’s not like it is significantly colder 10 feet north of the Wall than 10 feet south of it. It actually would be, since the sun is in the southern sky, meaning it the lands immediately north of the Wall are in shadow, and if there is north wind then the Watch is not exactly getting that in their face thanks to the Wall. 7 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said: 2. Once the Wall falls the barrier holding back the Others magic will be gone. So if the dragon feared to enter a region where the Others’ magic was not blocked then the dragons are going to fear all of Westeros after the Wall falls. So not feasible. There is no reason to believe creatures who can fly cannot fly above a magical barrier, just as it makes no sense to assume they cannot go around it. 7 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said: 3. The Wall stops magic. We know that. Dragons were created by blood magic. Conclusion, it was the magic in the Wall that repelled Silverwing, not some King of the Others sitting up at the North Pole. The Wall didn't stop wights that were carried through the Wall, it didn't stop Melisandre from crossing it, either. Not to mention that it would utter silliness to waste resources on building that wall ever higher and higher if magic stops everything anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 I also believe that it may be possible the dragon didn’t like what it was sensing, the Others. Just as their are different types of Fire, there are different types of ice/cold. The Others have their own magic that manifests in ice, anathema to the fire dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maia Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 20 hours ago, Lord Varys said: But overall, the idea that fire-breathing creatures who are said to be fire made flesh like water, reign, snow, or ice well was always pretty stupid. Didn't Dany's dragons enjoy swimming and diving in sea-water during her passage to Astapor? Rhaegal in particular? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 21 minutes ago, Maia said: Didn't Dany's dragons enjoy swimming and diving in sea-water during her passage to Astapor? Rhaegal in particular? They dived in when they caught fish, but they didn't take long baths, as far as I recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexis-something-Rose Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 43 minutes ago, Maia said: Didn't Dany's dragons enjoy swimming and diving in sea-water during her passage to Astapor? Rhaegal in particular? Dragons always preferred to attack from above, Dany had learned. Should either get between the other and the sun, he would fold his wings and dive screaming, and they would tumble from the sky locked together in a tangled scaly ball, jaws snapping and tails lashing. The first time they had done it, she feared that they meant to kill each other, but it was only sport. No sooner would they splash into the sea than they would break apart and rise again, shrieking and hissing, the salt water steaming off them as their wings clawed at the air. (Dany I, ASOS 8) They're not scared of the water, but I don't think they enjoy swimming. Also, the whole thing sounds like foreshadowing, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Wadsworth Longfellow Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 On 2/23/2019 at 11:43 AM, MushroomIsNoFool said: Something that kept my atention during reading F&B, was the repultion Dragons felt in cold weather. Three times Alysanne tried to drive Silverwing beyond the wall and three times the dragon didn't obey... When Jacaerys went to Winterfell, Vermax was pissed about the cold wind. So, inmediately i thught about the mission beyond the wall they made in the TV show... where Dany came to the rescue with Drogon, Vyserion and Rhaegal... and... What do you think? TV show runners just deliverately bullshitted us? this can happen in the novels? is there something special about Dany and her Dragons, and they'll actually go beyond the wall? Silverwing was pushed back by cold weather or by some magic forces from beyond the wall? I would not take the show seriously. It's DnD writing that story. They just pick what they want from the novels and mostly just do what they want. I didn't renew HBO this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Wadsworth Longfellow Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 On 2/23/2019 at 11:43 AM, MushroomIsNoFool said: Something that kept my atention during reading F&B, was the repultion Dragons felt in cold weather. Three times Alysanne tried to drive Silverwing beyond the wall and three times the dragon didn't obey... When Jacaerys went to Winterfell, Vermax was pissed about the cold wind. So, inmediately i thught about the mission beyond the wall they made in the TV show... where Dany came to the rescue with Drogon, Vyserion and Rhaegal... and... What do you think? TV show runners just deliverately bullshitted us? this can happen in the novels? is there something special about Dany and her Dragons, and they'll actually go beyond the wall? Silverwing was pushed back by cold weather or by some magic forces from beyond the wall? Why would a dragon like the cold? It doesn't make sense for them to. No more than a direwolf being comfortable in the Dornish desert. Thank goodness the dragons have the gift of flight. They have the ability to cover great distances and outrun the weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MushroomIsNoFool Posted February 25, 2019 Author Share Posted February 25, 2019 I think we are hitting the spot here... 1.- Fire made flesh creature, should be unconfortable in cold weather. 2.- Magic forces from beyond the wall, not necesarily pushed Silverwing back, but surely frighten her. 3.- A bigger dragon, more fierce, more determined could be able to go beyond the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 On 2/24/2019 at 8:29 AM, Lord Varys said: They dived in when they caught fish, but they didn't take long baths, as far as I recall. They don't have a problem with water. They feasted on krakens and fish. Do they breathe under water? No, but they can hold their breath long enough to dive in and go fishing without a lure. It's like catching a fish underwater which ain't easy to do. They've got water skills. It's the cold that they don't like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 6 hours ago, MushroomIsNoFool said: I think we are hitting the spot here... 1.- Fire made flesh creature, should be unconfortable in cold weather. 2.- Magic forces from beyond the wall, not necesarily pushed Silverwing back, but surely frighten her. 3.- A bigger dragon, more fierce, more determined could be able to go beyond the wall. The simplest explanation is a distaste for the cold. Another interesting option is the existence of an ancient treaty that forbade both sides from crossing the barrier of the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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