Would Littlefinger have still “rescued” Sansa

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Yes . What you want do for love .

[John Suburbs]

On 3/2/2019 at 1:38 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Sansas brother is dead. She is now the North, putting her ahead, in the vip sense, of bannermen and a Dornishmans younger brother.

Shes been the third wheel before, anyway the plan is kidnapping, not chilling

Only foolish Tully women and their husbands trust Petyr

Who knows? Thorns knows that the Red Keep has ears, perhaps she knows some of its secrets. Or not.

She may have political value, but in terms of status she is on the low end. Her house is in open rebellion. It would be an honor to invite her to the wedding at all, which, come to think of it, may be another reason why Littlefinger saw fit to get her married to a Lannister.

Sorry, I keep forgetting that we are talking Tyrion and the pie here. In this case, then Lady O would have even less reason to think LF's aim was to kill Tyrion but not take Sansa. That would be a huge waste of time and risk because Sansa would just be married off to the next Lannister and they'd be stuck with the same old problem. The only way this makes sense for either of them is to kill Tyrion and take Sansa to be married to someone of their choice. Sure, this choice now falls to LF, but from LO's perspective it's better than handing the north over to Tywin.

If Lady O did have an alternate plan to take Sansa during the chaos, it wasn't a very good one because the only person who approached Sansa was Dontos.

It takes more than secrets to remove a highborn maid out from under a little bird's nose. It takes planning, resources . . . LO has none of these while LF has it all set up: Dontos, the secret stairs . . . Her only option at this point was to let LF have her. 

 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

She may have political value, but in terms of status she is on the low end. Her house is in open rebellion. It would be an honor to invite her to the wedding at all, which, come to think of it, may be another reason why Littlefinger saw fit to get her married to a Lannister.

Sorry, I keep forgetting that we are talking Tyrion and the pie here. In this case, then Lady O would have even less reason to think LF's aim was to kill Tyrion but not take Sansa. That would be a huge waste of time and risk because Sansa would just be married off to the next Lannister and they'd be stuck with the same old problem. The only way this makes sense for either of them is to kill Tyrion and take Sansa to be married to someone of their choice. Sure, this choice now falls to LF, but from LO's perspective it's better than handing the north over to Tywin.

If Lady O did have an alternate plan to take Sansa during the chaos, it wasn't a very good one because the only person who approached Sansa was Dontos.

It takes more than secrets to remove a highborn maid out from under a little bird's nose. It takes planning, resources . . . LO has none of these while LF has it all set up: Dontos, the secret stairs . . . Her only option at this point was to let LF have her. 

 

Its good to see Sansa out and about, eating and breathing. Itll help cement Jaimes head on his shoulders. But like you said, its a small point.

Anyway, yea np. Fuck these naysayers lol. I agree, Petyrs and Olennas plan was to kill Tyrion and kidnap Sansa. They met, under Tyrions orders in acok (lol so beautiful, how are there naysayers?). This is when Sansa was brought up. 

But why give her to Petyr? Thorns is the one who needs to be bought, not LF. Thornes is the one who lives in a fully garrisoned castle, LF didnt have Harrenhall yet and certainly not the Vale, or do you think he indulged his secrets to her?

Regardless why trust LF? Shes not a Tully women, or their husband. I mean to a degree, conspire murder and kidnapping, but dont give the spoils to LF, its hers for the taking.

Or is Olenna cool with Alayne Stone lol? A direct insult to Marg (2 of 3 queens. Cersei or Dany?) She tried to get her once, I believe she would have tried again the night of the wedding.

And in regards to her knowing the innerworkings of KL, a Tyrell coin was found in the walls of the red keep. Maybe that wasn't hers. Either way Sansas not the first person to escape KL. Her sister did it a few years back, along with countless others, from Selmy to Aegon II.

And Thorns got resources, shes one of the most powerful people in Westeros. 

[Chris Mormont]

On 2/25/2019 at 4:33 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

LF did kill his wife, Lysa, when Lysa was trying to push Sansa out the moon door.

LF killed Lysa because she was a mad woman who was starting to spill secrets, specifically about her killing Jon Arryn on LF orders and then sending the letter accusing the Lannisters to Winterfell.  By killing her at that moment, he tied up a loose end and he "saved" Sansa again, making her more in his debt.

[Clegane'sPup]

2 hours ago, Chris Mormont said:

LF killed Lysa because she was a mad woman who was starting to spill secrets, specifically about her killing Jon Arryn on LF orders and then sending the letter accusing the Lannisters to Winterfell.  By killing her at that moment, he tied up a loose end and he "saved" Sansa again, making her more in his debt.

Yes, I agree, when LF pushed Lysa out the moon door LF cleared up a few loose ends.

My question is not directed at you personally --- anyone can reply --- why was LF so interested in Sansa from the get go?   Beside the Sansa reminds LF of the unrequited love LF felt for Cat.

LF spent a lot of time and energy arranging the Sansa and Dontos meetings. LF spent a lot of money having that special hairnet made.

Now LF is trying to arrange a marriage between his bastard daughter Alayne/Sansa and some Vale lord.

why.

I don't know what LF is up to. I get this creepy vibe that whatever LF is up to it isn't in Sansa's best interest.

Young 13ish Sansa at the request of LF --- may flirt a bit to much with the seasoned 19ish Harry --- Harry might decide he will have what he desires --- Sansa/Alayne is after all the bastard daughter of LF --- and of course the rape of young Sansa would be meh --- she is the bastard daughter, no harm no foul of LF --- and of course Harry didn't mean to hurt the girl --- Sansa/Alyane well she got Harry's, as martin says --- blood up.

As of the end of DwD,  martin's frekking long winded ASOIAF story  --- LF's bastard daughter is Sansa Stark Lannister, a 13 year old fugitive in hiding wanted in connection of the death of King Joffrey not Sophie.

What's LF's game? One day I will hopefully find out.

Readers have two books and approximately 2000 pages to look forward to.  Some reason or another, gee wiz, I am thinking of the old 60's, 70's, 80's songs that have DREAM in the title. 

 

 

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its good to see Sansa out and about, eating and breathing. Itll help cement Jaimes head on his shoulders. But like you said, its a small point.

Anyway, yea np. Fuck these naysayers lol. I agree, Petyrs and Olennas plan was to kill Tyrion and kidnap Sansa. They met, under Tyrions orders in acok (lol so beautiful, how are there naysayers?). This is when Sansa was brought up. 

But why give her to Petyr? Thorns is the one who needs to be bought, not LF. Thornes is the one who lives in a fully garrisoned castle, LF didnt have Harrenhall yet and certainly not the Vale, or do you think he indulged his secrets to her?

Regardless why trust LF? Shes not a Tully women, or their husband. I mean to a degree, conspire murder and kidnapping, but dont give the spoils to LF, its hers for the taking.

Or is Olenna cool with Alayne Stone lol? A direct insult to Marg (2 of 3 queens. Cersei or Dany?) She tried to get her once, I believe she would have tried again the night of the wedding.

And in regards to her knowing the innerworkings of KL, a Tyrell coin was found in the walls of the red keep. Maybe that wasn't hers. Either way Sansas not the first person to escape KL. Her sister did it a few years back, along with countless others, from Selmy to Aegon II.

And Thorns got resources, shes one of the most powerful people in Westeros. 

Like I said, I think it was her only option. She had no real way of getting her out, so it was either Littlefinger or Tywin, and it certainly wasn't going to be Tywin. By this time, of course, Petyr does have the Vale, and Harrenhal for that matter, but it wouldn't matter if he didn't. Castles aren't going to protect Sansa, anonymity will. And Lady O knows that Petyr cannot use Sansa to his advantage as long as she is wanted for murder. By the time it's safe for Sansa to declare herself, the Lannisters will be gone (the important ones anyway) and the Tyrell hold on the Iron Throne will be secure. So then, if Petyr wants to wed Sansa to whomever of his choosing and form a bloc between the Vale and the North, so what? It's better than the north-westerlands-riverlands-crownloads-stormlands-IT bloc that Tywin was going after, and the Reach doesn't share boarders with either realm.

I cannot comprehend why Olenna would want to stash gold coins under the bed of a gaolor in the Red Keep. This was obviously a plant, and since we know who the gaolor was we should know who the planter was too. Arya escaped because she looked like a common boy, not a highborn girl. Selmy fought his way out, killing several gold cloaks. The Hound fled in the chaos of battle. None of these options are available to Lady O with Sansa.

Olenna may have resources. What she doesn't have is time. Her motivation to kill Tyrion does not arise until after the Red Wedding, and this is only a few weeks before the Purple Wedding. She couldn't possibly arrange something this complicated this quickly. Petyr has Dontos all set up to lead her away. What was Lady O going to do? Send a complete stranger to tell Sansa, "come with me, my lady"? Maybe one of the cousins, or Leonette? And again, how do they get her out? Varys knows all the secret passages. The chances of running into a little bird are extremely high. Petyr is her only hope here.

[John Suburbs]

23 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Yes, I agree, when LF pushed Lysa out the moon door LF cleared up a few loose ends.

My question is not directed at you personally --- anyone can reply --- why was LF so interested in Sansa from the get go?   Beside the Sansa reminds LF of the unrequited love LF felt for Cat.

LF spent a lot of time and energy arranging the Sansa and Dontos meetings. LF spent a lot of money having that special hairnet made.

Now LF is trying to arrange a marriage between his bastard daughter Alayne/Sansa and some Vale lord.

why.

I don't know what LF is up to. I get this creepy vibe that whatever LF is up to it isn't in Sansa's best interest.

Young 13ish Sansa at the request of LF --- may flirt a bit to much with the seasoned 19ish Harry --- Harry might decide he will have what he desires --- Sansa/Alayne is after all the bastard daughter of LF --- and of course the rape of young Sansa would be meh --- she is the bastard daughter, no harm no foul of LF --- and of course Harry didn't mean to hurt the girl --- Sansa/Alyane well she got Harry's, as martin says --- blood up.

As of the end of DwD,  martin's frekking long winded ASOIAF story  --- LF's bastard daughter is Sansa Stark Lannister, a 13 year old fugitive in hiding wanted in connection of the death of King Joffrey not Sophie.

What's LF's game? One day I will hopefully find out.

Readers have two books and approximately 2000 pages to look forward to.  Some reason or another, gee wiz, I am thinking of the old 60's, 70's, 80's songs that have DREAM in the title. 

 

 

He knows a good piece when he sees one. Har!

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Like I said, I think it was her only option. She had no real way of getting her out, so it was either Littlefinger or Tywin, and it certainly wasn't going to be Tywin.

Throw her in a barrel like her husband and roll her ass down to Highgarden. Its Olenna. No ones strip searching her, shes got more resources at her disposal then practically every other Westerosi. It wont be impossible for her to smuggle out a child. Plus, as I said before, its no great feat to escape KL, its been done hundreds of times, like Aegon IIs crippled ass

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

By this time, of course, Petyr does have the Vale, and Harrenhal for that matter, but it wouldn't matter if he didn't. Castles aren't going to protect Sansa, anonymity will.

No he does not. He treats with Olenna for Joff/Margs wedding plan in acok. He becomes lord of Harrenhall in asos and takes The Vale at the end of asos.

And castles protect. Shes a child, could get scooped up by the first Mad Mouse or even a Rorge

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

And Lady O knows that Petyr cannot use Sansa to his advantage as long as she is wanted for murder. By the time it's safe for Sansa to declare herself, the Lannisters will be gone (the important ones anyway) and the Tyrell hold on the Iron Throne will be secure. So then, if Petyr wants to wed Sansa to whomever of his choosing and form a bloc between the Vale and the North, so what? It's better than the north-westerlands-riverlands-crownloads-stormlands-IT bloc that Tywin was going after, and the Reach doesn't share boarders with either realm.

 What do you mean "So what?" The North remembers. Sansas on a one way ticket to Queen of the North, she will always be a challenger to Margs rule unless shes firmly in the hands of Tyrell. Yes it's better then Tywin but its a far cry from "all good"

And the balls in her court, Petyrs the one begging her for an army to reinforce KL

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Her motivation to kill Tyrion does not arise until after the Red Wedding, and this is only a few weeks before the Purple Wedding. She couldn't possibly arrange something this complicated this quickly. Petyr has Dontos all set up to lead her away. What was Lady O going to do? Send a complete stranger to tell Sansa, "come with me, my lady"? Maybe one of the cousins, or Leonette? And again, how do they get her out? Varys knows all the secret passages. The chances of running into a little bird are extremely high. Petyr is her only hope here.

She planned to kill Tyrion during acok. Yes Robb was still living but they decided hes not one long for this earth.

Just because we are not privy to Tully schemes doesnt mean they have none. Petyrs no Obi Wan, she can trust in herself.

Dont you think my quotes peculiar? Inviting Sansa to Highgarden on the night of the PW?

[Chris Mormont]

21 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

why was LF so interested in Sansa from the get go? 

I think LF from early on saw that Sansa is exactly who she is, a young, naive girl who can be easily manipulated.  She also has the Tully look, thus resembling Cat, his true love.  But most importantly she is a Stark and the only one he has access to.

A manipulator like LF, didn't need an exact reason when he first became interested in her, he just knew it was in his best interest to get her to trust him.

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Throw her in a barrel like her husband and roll her ass down to Highgarden. Its Olenna. No ones strip searching her, shes got more resources at her disposal then practically every other Westerosi. It wont be impossible for her to smuggle out a child. Plus, as I said before, its no great feat to escape KL, its been done hundreds of times, like Aegon IIs crippled ass

No he does not. He treats with Olenna for Joff/Margs wedding plan in acok. He becomes lord of Harrenhall in asos and takes The Vale at the end of asos.

And castles protect. Shes a child, could get scooped up by the first Mad Mouse or even a Rorge

 What do you mean "So what?" The North remembers. Sansas on a one way ticket to Queen of the North, she will always be a challenger to Margs rule unless shes firmly in the hands of Tyrell. Yes it's better then Tywin but its a far cry from "all good"

And the balls in her court, Petyrs the one begging her for an army to reinforce KL

She planned to kill Tyrion during acok. Yes Robb was still living but they decided hes not one long for this earth.

Just because we are not privy to Tully schemes doesnt mean they have none. Petyrs no Obi Wan, she can trust in herself.

Dont you think my quotes peculiar? Inviting Sansa to Highgarden on the night of the PW?

Lol, that would have been a funny scene. Where would this barrel be? In the back of the throne room? And then Lady O rolling it all the way out of the castle with Sansa going around and around inside. She'd still be dizzy. Sorry, Lady O has no plausible way of taking Sansa. She can get her maybe to the godswood, and then what? And if this was her plan, then why did no one but Dontos approach her after the poisoning? If it's so all-fire important for the Tyrells to have her, why did she or this agent of hers simply let her go?

If you agree that the poison was in the pie and Tyrion was the target, then you cannot think that LF and Lady O were plotting this all the way back in Kings. She has no reason to want Tyrion dead until he is married to Sansa and all the other Stark children are dead.

Lady O has no idea who the Mad Mouse or Rorge are. If she is taken by either of these two men, it will be because her identity was revealed, not because the castle has fallen.

In what way does Sansa as Queen of the North represent a threat to Margy as Queen of the Iron Throne? Is Sansa now going to march on Westeros? At best, this becomes a long-term issue for Highgarden, whereas Tywin's power bloc is a clear and present danger. I never said it was a perfect solution for Lady O, but it's the best she has given that she has no viable way to get Sansa herself at this point, thanks to Littlefinger's meddling.

The Lannisters need an army and the Tyrells need a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne. Quid pro quo. Nobody has leverage here.

They did have schemes: to marry Sansa to Willas. That scheme was quashed by Littlefinger, so so much for them working together at this point. Sorry, but there is no plausible scenario in which LO was hoping to get Sansa after the poisoning. To coin a phrase, "Littlefinger, you're our only hope."

It wasn't the night of the PW. The plan was to invite Sansa to HG after Margaery became queen, after the wedding. Maybe as soon as Lady O took her leave, maybe later. But definitely not the night of the PW. Who leaves on a long journey in the middle of the night?

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

It wasn't the night of the PW. The plan was to invite Sansa to HG after Margaery became queen, after the wedding. Maybe as soon as Lady O took her leave, maybe later. But definitely not the night of the PW. Who leaves on a long journey in the middle of the night?

She was invited to Highgarden the night of the PW, not that she would have left that night. Although she might have, after all she did. This is a quote from the night of the PW

Quote

Lady Olenna smiled. "I am pleased to say I shall be leaving for Highgarden  the day after next. I have had quite enough of this smelly city, thank you. Perhaps you would like to accompany me for a little visit, whilst the men are off having their war? I shall miss my Margaery so dreadfully, and all her lovely ladies. Your company would be such sweet solace."

"You are too kind, my lady," said Sansa, "but my place is with my lord husband."

 Lady Olenna gave Tyrion a wrinkled, toothless smile. "Oh? Forgive a silly old woman, my  lord, I did not mean to steal your lovely wife.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Lol, that would have been a funny scene. Where would this barrel be? In the back of the throne room? And then Lady O rolling it all the way out of the castle with Sansa going around and around inside. She'd still be dizzy. Sorry, Lady O has no plausible way of taking Sansa. She can get her maybe to the godswood, and then what? And if this was her plan, then why did no one but Dontos approach her after the poisoning? If it's so all-fire important for the Tyrells to have her, why did she or this agent of hers simply let her go?

If you agree that the poison was in the pie and Tyrion was the target, then you cannot think that LF and Lady O were plotting this all the way back in Kings. She has no reason to want Tyrion dead until he is married to Sansa and all the other Stark children are dead.

Lady O has no idea who the Mad Mouse or Rorge are. If she is taken by either of these two men, it will be because her identity was revealed, not because the castle has fallen.

In what way does Sansa as Queen of the North represent a threat to Margy as Queen of the Iron Throne? Is Sansa now going to march on Westeros? At best, this becomes a long-term issue for Highgarden, whereas Tywin's power bloc is a clear and present danger. I never said it was a perfect solution for Lady O, but it's the best she has given that she has no viable way to get Sansa herself at this point, thanks to Littlefinger's meddling.

The Lannisters need an army and the Tyrells need a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne. Quid pro quo. Nobody has leverage here.

They did have schemes: to marry Sansa to Willas. That scheme was quashed by Littlefinger, so so much for them working together at this point. Sorry, but there is no plausible scenario in which LO was hoping to get Sansa after the poisoning. To coin a phrase, "Littlefinger, you're our only hope."

It was funny with Tyrion too. Thorns can do anything, the city is flooded with her men. They can hide Sansa in a wheelbarrow with a Tyrell flag draping over her, or put her in armor and say shes Left's buttboy. Perhaps there are some knights wearing no sigils in the tourney grounds waiting for Sansa, there's a near infinite amount of possibilities for one of the most poweful people in Westeros to orchestrate a kidnapping.

(Dontos didn't approach Sansa, they met at the Godswood, and she wasnt approached by Tyrell agents because she ran directly there. Also the Tyrell scheme was off to a terrible start, the plan was to off the Imp, not the King. The city was in much confusion) 

 

Ok, so they met in acok. Petyr with bowl in hand, (if asked what he seeks in this and he says Harrenhall the correct response should be lolz) Olenna with an army and food. After this exchange, lets call it Littlethorns, Petyr returns to KL with his lovely Renly ghost scheme. Dontos was happy to report that, but was even happier to show Sansa her new Hairnet. Olenna arrives in KL shortly afterwards. 

So the scheme certainly started in acok as thats when Sansa got the hairnet. Unless you believe Petyr told Olenna about his hairnet in KL, where they are both fully aware of the Red Keeps ears. 

So what'd they discuss at Littlethorns? Why should Olenna reinforce Jaimes bastard? Mace wants his grandkid to be king lol? As you noted earlier, Tywin was amassing power unseen in Westeros, for Highgarden to throw its support behind it without stipulation would be adding to Tywins "power bloc" and not the right political move. So if its going to add, then it might as well subtract.

Robb is not dead. Far from it, yet his brothers are. Murdered and their house put to the flames. Theon didn't kill Bran when Petyr set out to meet Olenna, but by the time of Blackwater Bran and Rickon were already in the tombs. But Robbs not dead, just a king without a kingdom fighting a two front war. A betting man would not put their money on Robb, no matter what the spread is.

What are the chances Sansas name was brought up at Littlethorns? Practically 100% as shes the agent who would smuggle in the Hairnet. Now in light of Sansas family she becomes important. Sansa is the North, as valuable as half of Westeros. Sansa will no longer marry Joff, perhaps Cersei will send her home like Brienne thought, or perhaps Tywin will add to his powerbloc. All signs point to Imp.

If Olenna agrees to this marriage then Tywin now has 2 kingdoms and blood ties to 3 others, while Tyrell has but Highgarden. 

Back to subtraction, The North must not go to Tywin (kill Tyrion) and the best way to prevent that is to marry her yourself. After all, Tywins 4 kingdoms vs the biggest kingdom and the most populated (and really, who thinks the Riverlands would fight for Lannister over Sansa Stark?) isnt so much of a Tywins powerbloc but a healthy Crowns powerbloc with the Vale and Ironborn falling in line.

 

Remove Sansa Stark from the equation and Tywins powebloc is still vastly superior to lonely Highgarden.

However lose Sansa Stark and Westeros will fall back into carnage. (It should be rule number one, dont let the princess escape, Dany will certainly remind them, along with Sansa) The Vale knights will remain neutral like they did with Robb, maybe? And Riverlands and North would only fight for their young wolf, maybe? Sansa must be kept to prevent short term problems, and must not go to Tywin for long term problems.

Now, 2 suggestions, Petyr or Olenna. Who gets her? Olenna could certainly use her as we noted itd do great for Powerbloc Tyrell. She also tried to marry her to Tyrell. (Petyr uses this opportunity to "pull spades" and force Tyrions hand in marriage, it would have happend eventually, this way though Olenna cant win, not yet) However Olenna knew that she was in KL untill Marg gets married, after all shes the murder culprit, which was always the plan on sending Sansa "home".

Petyr robbed Olenna, he lied to her during Littlethorns and made off with Sansa which was the whole reason Olenna went to KL in the first place. Olenna may have thought about Sansa and said LF, Your my only hope. But Petyr has a New Hope

[Nevets]

5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

It was funny with Tyrion too. Thorns can do anything, the city is flooded with her men. They can hide Sansa in a wheelbarrow with a Tyrell flag draping over her, or put her in armor and say shes Left's buttboy. Perhaps there are some knights wearing no sigils in the tourney grounds waiting for Sansa, there's a near infinite amount of possibilities for one of the most poweful people in Westeros to orchestrate a kidnapping.

 

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Lol, that would have been a funny scene. Where would this barrel be? In the back of the throne room? And then Lady O rolling it all the way out of the castle with Sansa going around and around inside. She'd still be dizzy. Sorry, Lady O has no plausible way of taking Sansa. She can get her maybe to the godswood, and then what? And if this was her plan, then why did no one but Dontos approach her after the poisoning? If it's so all-fire important for the Tyrells to have her, why did she or this agent of hers simply let her go?

I think the Tyrells pretty much gave up on Sansa after her marriage to Tyrion.  She's not worth the effort.  In any event, any effort to spirit her out of the Red Keep is going to have to require her cooperation, and they didn't approach her at all during that time.  The quote with Olenna was with Tyrion at Sansa's side, so it hardly counts.

As for Littlefinger's plans, I think he exposed the marriage plot with Willas because if she went off to Highgarden, it would ruin his plans.  He needed her to be dependent on him for hope of rescue, and in the Red Keep.  With the Tyrells promising to take her to Highgarden, getting her cooperation at the PW is going to be well nigh impossible.

I expect he has multiple plans as to what to do with Sansa, depending on what happens.  Whether or not he expected Tyrion to marry her, I think he planned for the possibility.  But, considering that he is probably already planning to get rid of Tyrion somehow (if framing him for the murder doesn't work, he'll figure something else out), that isn't an insurmountable obstacle.

I see no reason for the Tyrells to be concerned with Tyrion's marriage to Sansa.  The North is underpopulated, comparatively impoverished, and as far from the Reach as you can get and still be in the Seven Kingdoms.  Plus, they don't care much for Lannisters.  Even if somehow gains power, he is going to have his hands full.

In response to the OP, he will take Sansa in whatever shape he gets her.  He is obsessed with her, in love with her, considers her his protégé, and obviously has plans for her (probably several, depending on circumstances).

[Hugorfonics]

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

I think the Tyrells pretty much gave up on Sansa after her marriage to Tyrion.  She's not worth the effort. 

Shes worth 1/2 of Westeros. No amount of effort should be put aside when the North is the prize.

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

In any event, any effort to spirit her out of the Red Keep is going to have to require her cooperation, and they didn't approach her at all during that time. 

Why? Sansas on good terms with Tyrell, she thinks about kittens in Highgarden frequently, Id think shed be thrilled to go to Highgarden.

Or really anywhere. "Follow me to escape Joff Cersei and Illyn Payne" who would say no?

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

The quote with Olenna was with Tyrion at Sansa's side, so it hardly counts.

Why? Tyrion isnt making it outside unscathed, he should be dead by then. (Or arrested for killing Joff, if you believe in Petyrs lies like a Tully Lady) 

I was taught once, in suspect situations, to only ask questions you know the answer to. What are the chances Sansa could agree to Thorns?

Then, no. But with a dead husband (or incarcerated) why not accompany Olenna to Highgarden?

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

As for Littlefinger's plans, I think he exposed the marriage plot with Willas because if she went off to Highgarden, it would ruin his plans.  He needed her to be dependent on him for hope of rescue, and in the Red Keep.  With the Tyrells promising to take her to Highgarden, getting her cooperation at the PW is going to be well nigh impossible.

I expect he has multiple plans as to what to do with Sansa, depending on what happens.  Whether or not he expected Tyrion to marry her, I think he planned for the possibility.  But, considering that he is probably already planning to get rid of Tyrion somehow (if framing him for the murder doesn't work, he'll figure something else out), that isn't an insurmountable obstacle.

Word.

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

I see no reason for the Tyrells to be concerned with Tyrion's marriage to Sansa.  The North is underpopulated, comparatively impoverished, and as far from the Reach as you can get and still be in the Seven Kingdoms. 

Underpopulated? Compared to what? New York? Comparatively impoverished to Iron Islands? Dorne? No.

The Norths not sexy, no knights, no tourneys, hardly even a singer. What it is though is big. It fields a considerable army size made up of an ancient and loyal houses. Its the location of great fortresses like Deepwood Motte or the bursting city of White Harbor.

Dont sleep on the North man, its half of Westeros

 

[Nevets]

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Shes worth 1/2 of Westeros. No amount of effort should be put aside when the North is the prize

The empty half, maybe.  It may have half the land mass, but certainly not half the population or half the GDP.

15 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Underpopulated? Compared to what? New York? Comparatively impoverished to Iron Islands? Dorne? No.

The Norths not sexy, no knights, no tourneys, hardly even a singer. What it is though is big. It fields a considerable army size made up of an ancient and loyal houses. Its the location of great fortresses like Deepwood Motte or the bursting city of White Harbor.

Dont sleep on the North man, its half of Westeros

Thinly populated, then.  Most of it is empty, with no people or productive use of the land.  As to wealth, Asha had a point when she dumped turnips and pinecones at the Kingsmoot, declaring it the wealth of the North.  And there is a reason that the NW gets most of its taxes in produce, not cash.

Deepwood Motte a great fortress?  How about, "a pisspot on a hill", as Theon describes it.  Stannis was practically able to walk into the place.  And White Harbour is probably the least important of the decent ports in the country.

Don't worry, I won't sleep on the North.  It is going to be important to the story.  But I very much doubt its importance to the Tyrells.

[Hugorfonics]

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

The empty half, maybe.  It may have half the land mass, but certainly not half the population or half the GDP.

Certainly not. But does it have more then 1/7 (or should it be 1/8) of the population and gdp? Probably

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

Thinly populated, then.  Most of it is empty, with no people 

Thinly populated, maybe. Mostly empty, no. While traveling the North Robert and later the Reeds question Stark where all there people are, Stark replies, around.

Quote

"I trust you enjoyed the journey, Your Grace?"

Robert snorted. "Bogs and forests and fields, and scarcely a decent inn north of the Neck. I've never seen such a vast emptiness. Where are all your people?"

"Likely they were too shy to come out," Ned jested. He could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth. "Kings are a rare sight in the north."

Quote

On the clear days, it often seemed as if they were the only living things in all the world. "Does no one live up here?" Meera Reed asked once, as they made their way around a granite upthrust as large as Winterfell.

"There's people," Bran told her. "The Umbers are mostly east of the kingsroad, but they graze their sheep in the high meadows in summer. There are Wulls west of the mountains along the Bay of Ice, Harclays back behind us in the hills, and Knotts and Liddles and Norreys and even some Flints up here in the high places."

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

or productive use of the land. 

Theyve got the Wolfswood, presumably this is a good way of building ships and siege weapons. If not, they have other forests, wild animals, livestock, fishing, etc. Land looks fine to me.

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

As to wealth, Asha had a point when she dumped turnips and pinecones at the Kingsmoot, declaring it the wealth of the North. 

Shes just dramatic, real political theatre. At the Kingsmoot she never says theyll give up their conquered land (an abundance of wood) just that she wont war more to the expense of her soon to be dead subjects

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

And there is a reason that the NW gets most of its taxes in produce, not cash.

The NW needs produce more then cash, and they get their taxes from Moles town and The Gifts, not Winterfells domain.

The Starks are rich enough, Cat gives Brienne like an equivalent of 1 million U.S dollars? Sandor is sure that Robb will flood him in gold, if not castles, for returning Arya (as Beric did too)

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

Deepwood Motte a great fortress?  How about, "a pisspot on a hill", as Theon describes it.  Stannis was practically able to walk into the place. 

Lol. Stannis took it from the North, which was the undefended side. But yea, it aint pretty. Like the Reeds castle. North aint sexy, but its still undefeated against southron enemies since the earliest records of history

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

And White Harbour is probably the least important of the decent ports in the country.

Its, what the 4th biggest city? Population of maybe 50k? Thats like half of Dorne lol

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

Don't worry, I won't sleep on the North.  It is going to be important to the story.  But I very much doubt its importance to the Tyrells.

Good, theyre the main characters lol. 

Before King Robert ever met Sansa he wanted her to be Baratheon. When the marriage was put aside Tywin made her Lannister, thinking if she was home shed instantly be a Mallister. The first conversation with Lysa ended with the promise shell be an Arryn. Tyrell was no different, Olenna made frequent remarks on having Sansa in Highgarden

Its not just you whos not sleeping on The North or Sansa, the whole South is tossing and turning when thinking about her.

[John Suburbs]

On 3/7/2019 at 12:25 AM, Nevets said:

 

I think the Tyrells pretty much gave up on Sansa after her marriage to Tyrion.  She's not worth the effort.  In any event, any effort to spirit her out of the Red Keep is going to have to require her cooperation, and they didn't approach her at all during that time.  The quote with Olenna was with Tyrion at Sansa's side, so it hardly counts.

As for Littlefinger's plans, I think he exposed the marriage plot with Willas because if she went off to Highgarden, it would ruin his plans.  He needed her to be dependent on him for hope of rescue, and in the Red Keep.  With the Tyrells promising to take her to Highgarden, getting her cooperation at the PW is going to be well nigh impossible.

I expect he has multiple plans as to what to do with Sansa, depending on what happens.  Whether or not he expected Tyrion to marry her, I think he planned for the possibility.  But, considering that he is probably already planning to get rid of Tyrion somehow (if framing him for the murder doesn't work, he'll figure something else out), that isn't an insurmountable obstacle.

I see no reason for the Tyrells to be concerned with Tyrion's marriage to Sansa.  The North is underpopulated, comparatively impoverished, and as far from the Reach as you can get and still be in the Seven Kingdoms.  Plus, they don't care much for Lannisters.  Even if somehow gains power, he is going to have his hands full.

In response to the OP, he will take Sansa in whatever shape he gets her.  He is obsessed with her, in love with her, considers her his protégé, and obviously has plans for her (probably several, depending on circumstances).

I think she is still worth the effort, but they have no plausible way of doing it. And yes, if they did have some plan, then surely someone else beside Dontos would have approached her once the king dropped.

As for the Willas plan, remember, this was not supposed to happen until after the royal wedding. Littlefinger is going to take her at the wedding. So this would in no way ruin his plans. In fact, he would be ruining theirs. The only possible way this could foul things up for LF is if Sansa started to trust the Tyrells more than Dontos and decided not to wear the hairnet. But the remedy for that is to get into Sansa's head so that she does not trust the Tyrells, which is already in her mind because she can't understand why they aren't as concerned about Joffrey as they should be. But by all means, don't tell Tywin about it. Any fool could see that he will quickly marry her off to one of her own, so, placing this in the context of the (thoroughly debunked ) poisoned wine theory, instead of just having to kill the king and take unmarried Sansa free and clear, he now has to kill the king and make sure everything else breaks his way in this now-convoluted plan to frame Tyrion -- because Sansa is next-to-worthless as long as she is married to Tyrion. I just don't see why a smart man like Littlefinger would intentionally and needlessly complicate his own plan like that.

Everybody from Tywin on down remark what a good match Sansa is because whoever marries her will rule the north. The north is one of the most resource-rich realms in the kingdom. It is chock full of wood, stone, ore, furs and everything else you need to support a medieval army, and it's population, and thus the size of the army, is equal to any other realm, albeit a bit more difficult to marshal. It also has something that neither the Reach nor the Westerlands has: a port on the Narrow Sea capable of generating enormous wealth from the free cities for whomever controls it. Add this to Tywin's other gains in the riverlands, the stormlands, the crownlands and his ties to Dorne, he now has the power to field an army that would dwarf anything the Reach could muster, and other than its large army the Reach has nothing to thwart an invasion by the most ruthless warlord of a generation. Compared to what Tywin did to King's Landing and the riverlands, a few bruises and black eyes on Lady Olenna's granddaughter are minor.

 

[Nevets]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Add this to Tywin's other gains in the riverlands, the stormlands, the crownlands and his ties to Dorne, he now has the power to field an army that would dwarf anything the Reach could muster, and other than its large army the Reach has nothing to thwart an invasion by the most ruthless warlord of a generation. Compared to what Tywin did to King's Landing and the riverlands, a few bruises and black eyes on Lady Olenna's granddaughter are minor.

Tywin a ruthless warlord who is a threat to the Tyrells?  I don't think so.  Tywin attacked the Riverlands as retaliation for the kidnapping of Tyrion.  He continued the war because he perceived that Cersei and her children were under threat, and with it his own position.  He may have overreacted (I think he did), but his actions do have clear reasons.  If he or his family's position are threatened,, he will respond with overwhelming force.

There is no reason to believe that the Tryells are going to do anything to threaten him.  They are allies, and are likely to remain so for the foreseeable future.  The Tyrells are going to be married to the King (whichever one that is), which should help their defenses considerably.  And Tywin has no reason to come after them in any event.  Tywin may be ruthless, but if you don't bother him, he is unlikely to bother you.

And I'm guessing that Olenna and Margaery have a very different idea about receiving black eyes, bruises, etc. than you do.  Plus they have Loras's reaction to think about. He won't like it either, and is a bit of a hot-head.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 2/25/2019 at 3:01 PM, Lollygag said:

He wanted Catelyn after she was married so I don't see how it would be different with Sansa. Also, if a guy values marriage and virginal purity, he doesn't go into the brothel/pimp business. What makes Sansa valuable beyond the mini-Cat obsession thing which is going on two decades now, is that she's an heir of Winterfell, River Run, Harrenhal, and apparently for some reason I can't figure, the Vale. If she was pregnant with Tyrion's kid? Great! Add Casterly Rock to the list. 

I think it's just in the show where LF seeks to marry Cat after she's widowed. I agree though that he's probably not hung up on her being a virgin, he's not relying on the lack of consummation for Tyrion's marriage to her.

[Lollygag]

13 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I think it's just in the show where LF seeks to marry Cat after she's widowed. I agree though that he's probably not hung up on her being a virgin, he's not relying on the lack of consummation for Tyrion's marriage to her.

I meant to say that he still wanted Cat after she was married to Ned. 

[John Suburbs]

On 3/8/2019 at 7:53 PM, Nevets said:

Tywin a ruthless warlord who is a threat to the Tyrells?  I don't think so.  Tywin attacked the Riverlands as retaliation for the kidnapping of Tyrion.  He continued the war because he perceived that Cersei and her children were under threat, and with it his own position.  He may have overreacted (I think he did), but his actions do have clear reasons.  If he or his family's position are threatened,, he will respond with overwhelming force.

There is no reason to believe that the Tryells are going to do anything to threaten him.  They are allies, and are likely to remain so for the foreseeable future.  The Tyrells are going to be married to the King (whichever one that is), which should help their defenses considerably.  And Tywin has no reason to come after them in any event.  Tywin may be ruthless, but if you don't bother him, he is unlikely to bother you.

And I'm guessing that Olenna and Margaery have a very different idea about receiving black eyes, bruises, etc. than you do.  Plus they have Loras's reaction to think about. He won't like it either, and is a bit of a hot-head.

You're talking about the past. Lady O is concerned about the future. If things go south between the Tyrells and Lannisters, which is likely considering they share a common, ill-defined border that is about 1000 leagues long, then they not only have to worry about Tywin and his 20k-man army from the westerlands, but an additional 20k each from the north, the riverlands, the stormlands, Dorne, and probably the Vale, which isn't likely to defy the Iron Throne, which Tywin also controls.

Lol, Lady Olenna has just murdered the king and she expects the Tyrells and Lannisters to be allies for the foreseeable future? Not exactly the way to build a strong alliance. And this is a state of affairs that the Tyrells will be pleased with? They give up 5000 years of militarily dominance in the realm to a mad warlord who utterly obliterates his rival's lands and houses, but they should be OK as long as they behave themselves? I think you woefully underestimate Tyrell pride.

Loras lost his temper one time: when his lover was unexpectedly and brutally killed on the morning of their certain military victory. A few black eyes, etc., are nothing. Plenty of queens have suffered far worse for their crowns. There is no reason why Margaery couldn't do the same, or to think that she won't be able to continue to seduce Joffrey long enough to get an heir or two out of them. Then they can get rid of him anyway they choose without jeopardizing any of the Tyrells, not even Margaery, and then sit back and reap the rewards bestowed upon their house by the new Queen Regent for the next decade or more -- all the while making sure the new king grows up thinking of himself as a Tyrell, not a Lannister. Please give Lady Olenna a little credit; this is by far the better plan.