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redriver

The Hooded Man is Torren Liddle.

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Yes that's the hooded man Bran encountered in the "hidey hole" in Swords.Both strange, largely undescribed men who say-(or don't)- and do-(or don't)- mysterious things, but both do appear to be Stark sympathizers .

If him,how did he get into Winterfell?I suggest he walked into Winterfell with Mance Rayder disguised as a spearwife called Myrtle, with Mance disguised as a bard called Abel.

Mance left on his mission to rescue Arya with six spearwives,"young ones,and pretty" whom Dolorous Ed had supplied.But he doesn't rescue Arya-whom we later learn is Alys Karstark-but turns up at Winterfell with two daughers,two sisters,his wife and his "old mother".

This old mother character,we later find out, is Myrtle.We first meet her after the HM incident where Theon describes her as gaunt,older,tall and grey haired with a deep voice.I suggest to you,as Martin suggests to us, that this is a man and this man is the chief of House Liddle.

This is a very bare bones outline.We can get into the nuts and bolts in thread.

But there you have it.

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Like it. 

And off the top of my head seems like a more plausible possibility than many of the others I’ve heard. 

Need to reread the pertinent bits... doesn’t Mance leave the Wall w/ 6 spearwives, and arrives at Winterfell w/ 6?

Edited by kissdbyfire

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4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Like it. 

And off the top of my head seems like a more plausible possibility than many of the others I’ve heard. 

Need to reread the pertinent bits... doesn’t Mance leave the Wall w/ 6 spearwives, and arrives at Winterfell w/ 6?

 

 The math adds up.1 wife,2 daughters,2 sisters,1 mother.

I'm aware this is a very bare-bones outline of the theory,but I'm happy to elaborate as we go.

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Just now, redriver said:

 

 The math adds up.1 wife,2 daughters,2 sisters,1 mother.

I'm aware this is a very bare-bones outline of the theory,but I'm happy to elaborate as we go.

As I said, I do like it, quite a bit actually. 

My question is, doesn’t he leave the Wall w/ 6 spearwives? We know there are 6 “women” with him at WF, but if he had 6 w/ him from the start, the Liddle would be the 7th. I suppose it is possible the Liddle swapped places w/ one of the spearwives? Maybe she is w/ Umber outside? Or something else? Thoughts?

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34 minutes ago, redriver said:

Yes that's the hooded man Bran encountered in the "hidey hole" in Swords.Both strange, largely undescribed men who say-(or don't)- and do-(or don't)- mysterious things, but both do appear to be Stark sympathizers .

If him,how did he get into Winterfell?I suggest he walked into Winterfell with Mance Rayder disguised as a spearwife called Myrtle, with Mance disguised as a bard called Abel.

Mance left on his mission to rescue Arya with six spearwives,"young ones,and pretty" whom Dolorous Ed had supplied.But he doesn't rescue Arya-whom we later learn is Alys Karstark-but turns up at Winterfell with two daughers,two sisters,his wife and his "old mother".

This old mother character,we later find out, is Myrtle.We first meet her after the HM incident where Theon describes her as gaunt,older,tall and grey haired with a deep voice.I suggest to you,as Martin suggests to us, that this is a man and this man is the chief of House Liddle.

This is a very bare bones outline.We can get into the nuts and bolts in thread.

But there you have it.

Interesting and a fresh take. It would be cool.

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33 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

As I said, I do like it, quite a bit actually. 

My question is, doesn’t he leave the Wall w/ 6 spearwives? We know there are 6 “women” with him at WF, but if he had 6 w/ him from the start, the Liddle would be the 7th. I suppose it is possible the Liddle swapped places w/ one of the spearwives? Maybe she is w/ Umber outside? Or something else? Thoughts?

What is pertinent is that he leaves with six women.Dolorous Ed surely got that part right even if we can dispute what constitutes young and pretty.So yes,we have to take it that Mance swapped personnel on the way in this theory.

We know he changes mission somewhere along the way too.His mission is to rescue "Arya" ,a grey girl on a dying horse".

It does not happen.We know this from Alys' testimony.Instead he arrives at Winterfell.We don't know if Mance witnessed Alys from afar and realized she was not Arya,or ignored the mission entirely for his own reasons or that another actor who may know what's happening in the north informed him that this was not "Arya" and that "Arya" was still in Winterfell.And that actor replaced one of the spearwives.

I was going to expand on the third option right now,but respecting the Socratic tradition,I'll park it right there  for now!

 

 

Edited by redriver

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22 minutes ago, Impbread said:

Interesting and a fresh take. It would be cool.

Not exactly fresh.It's about 7 years old.

But not your fault,it was never a thread on its own.

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I like this theory as well, its much more palatable than the Theon-Durden theory which is ridiculous. Didn't that Bran chapter where they meet the Liddle say that Bran knew the mountain clans would be watching? Or have I misremembered that. I always had the impression that the Liddle went to that cave to wait for them so he could give them guidance and news., like he knew they would end up there in advance.

This theory would also explain why the hooded man doesn't kill Theon out of hand, he already knows that Theon didn't kill Bran and Rickon, hence why he's so flippant with him. I guess he doesn't know about Rickon but maybe he got word of him and Osha in the same way.

I'm less convinced about him arriving with Mance but its definitely plausible.

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6 hours ago, redriver said:

Yes that's the hooded man Bran encountered in the "hidey hole" in Swords.Both strange, largely undescribed men who say-(or don't)- and do-(or don't)- mysterious things, but both do appear to be Stark sympathizers .

If him,how did he get into Winterfell?I suggest he walked into Winterfell with Mance Rayder disguised as a spearwife called Myrtle, with Mance disguised as a bard called Abel.

Mance left on his mission to rescue Arya with six spearwives,"young ones,and pretty" whom Dolorous Ed had supplied.But he doesn't rescue Arya-whom we later learn is Alys Karstark-but turns up at Winterfell with two daughers,two sisters,his wife and his "old mother".

This old mother character,we later find out, is Myrtle.We first meet her after the HM incident where Theon describes her as gaunt,older,tall and grey haired with a deep voice.I suggest to you,as Martin suggests to us, that this is a man and this man is the chief of House Liddle.

This is a very bare bones outline.We can get into the nuts and bolts in thread.

But there you have it. 

Yeah, I like the theory about Myrtle being a Liddle. There's not much information to work with, unfortunately.

I would add one thing, and that is Ramsay says he caught the six women who came with Mance, and that would clearly be wrong if Myrtle was a man. But as I don't believe Ramsay wrote the letter, Myrtle being a man would only further confirm that Ramsay didn't write the letter.;)

But I still think the hooded-man was Hal Mollen, as it is someone who knew Theon more personally imo.

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

As I said, I do like it, quite a bit actually. 

My question is, doesn’t he leave the Wall w/ 6 spearwives? We know there are 6 “women” with him at WF, but if he had 6 w/ him from the start, the Liddle would be the 7th. I suppose it is possible the Liddle swapped places w/ one of the spearwives? Maybe she is w/ Umber outside? Or something else? Thoughts?

As far as I recall, Mance requested six wildling women from Moletown for a ploy he had in mind. Edd went for the women at Jon's request. Mance had asked for pretty girls and Myrtle would not really be considered a looker, in fact only one of the women, Holly, is described as pretty by Theon, so there is some discrepancy between what was requested and provided.

Rowan, the tall spearwife, gets offended at Theon's use of Lord Eddard's words. This is strange if she is a wildling. It suggests that she is in fact a northerner. There is very little information about her except that she is tall. This might suggest she is an Umber as we know Greatjon has a daughter and one of the Umber's defining characteristics is being tall.

Another spearwife, Willlow, is described along the lines of a Mormont women but again there is nothing more than that. I believe she was shot by crossbow during the escape.

One of the spearwives, Squirrel, is an accomplished climber who speaks about raiding over the Wall with her father, so she seems genuine unless she is lying as part of the act. Interestingly, Old Nan told Bran he got his love of climbing from his Grandmother who was a Flint, so make what you want of that.

So the question becomes, if any of these are northern women, or indeed men, then did they infiltrate Mole Town and get picked up there or did they change places with the women Edd acquired after Mance left Castle Black?

I tend to think they swapped out after Mance left Castle Black. Mance went south via Umber lands, east of Long Lake, as it was a route he was familiar with and knew some hidey-holes along the way. If this is right then Mance probably knows who the women/man really are. If the women infiltrated Mole Town then and were subsequently picked up by Edd, then there is a chance Mance thinks they are spearwives, although I think Mance knows the free folk well enough and is shrewd enough to see through such a ploy. So I'm operating under the assumption that Mance knows who the washerwomen really are.

So were these women foisted upon Mance by an Umber or some other northerner with an agenda along the way, or is Mance a willing participant in the scheme? I think there is reason to believe that there has been some level of co-operation between Mance and the Umbers going back to the beginning of the series and maybe even beyond. Giants in broken chains and free folk do fit very well in my opinion, and it was Greatjon Umber who first called for independence from the Iron Throne and a return to a King-in-the-North.

It also makes sense that Mance would try and make a connection with the north before he led a huge host into their lands, unless he wants it all to end in blood. Every king-beyond-the-wall who made it past the Wall was soon destroyed by northern armies, such as Starks and Umbers. And Mance did have the opportunity to make such a connection before his advance south.

Mance met Dalla on his way back from Winterfell after Robert's feast, so she is very possibly northern clan or Umber smallfolk or even bastard. Crowfood was known for putting it about and the Umbers are rumored to keep the First Night custom. Dalla being an Umber bastard would make sense of her being Val's sister, well half-sister at least, if Val was Crowfood's missing daughter, which I believe there is a lot of evidence for. So a relationship between Mance and the Umbers may have begun after Mance met Val or Dalla.

 

Edited by three-eyed monkey

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51 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

So the question becomes, if any of these are northern women, or indeed men, then did they infiltrate Mole Town and get picked up there or did they change places with the women Edd acquired after Mance left Castle Black?

I tend to think they swapped out after Mance left Castle Black.

Yup, I tend to think the same. I was trying to find more info on when Mors arrives at Witnerfell’s gates but couldn’t find anything useful apart from the fact that Mors sides w/ Stannis early on in Dance

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A more in depth response to this well considered post will come later.(Just woke up ,lol).

IN the meantime,wrt your pink letter thread,have you considered that the 6 skins of the spearwives that "Ramsay"refers to may be an oblique reference to V.Sixkins-a character who Jon and Mance would know but Ramsay would not:Neither would he have any reason to torture it out of Abel/ party nor would he have any reason to recognize it as valuable info if he did?

Edited by redriver

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19 minutes ago, Bittersweet Distractor said:

It’s Emperor Palpatine, it is known.

Infinitely more likely than Mance is Rhaegar,that is known too.

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1 hour ago, redriver said:

A more in depth response to this well considered post will come later.(Just woke up ,lol).

IN the meantime,wrt your pink letter thread,have you considered that the 6 skins of the spearwives that "Ramsay"refers to may be an oblique reference to V.Sixkins-a character who Jon and Mance would know but Ramsay would not:Neither would he have any reason to torture it out of Abel/ party nor would he have any reason to recognize it as valuable info if he did?

Ha. Didn't catch that. Interesting.

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Interesting theory. Fun. Fresh.

I too gave thought to Jon remembering Mance's request for "young ones and pretty" and supplying some names.

Yet Mance according to Theon shows up at the gates of WF with two daughers, two sisters, his wife and his "old mother".

Myrtle the old woman (mother) might have a caterpillar lip and maybe even a some wild hairs growing from the chin.

An old man however, no matter how close the shave, is going to have a problem passing himself off as a woman. That face hair is coarse and difficult to manicure.

Let's go with The Liddle (Torren) idea as the hooded man.

Big Liddle is a member of the NW. Which is kinda strange considering Duncan is the eldest son.

Middle Liddle is with Stannis.

Little Liddle is at home I guess.

6 hours ago, redriver said:

I'm happy to elaborate as we go.

Please do. :drool:

6 hours ago, redriver said:

So yes,we have to take it that Mance swapped personnel on the way in this theory.

More please because otherwise I have to take it that Dolorous couldn't find who Mance requested.

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55 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Little Liddle is at home I guess.

Probably minding the goats.Just a green boy...

 

57 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Myrtle the old woman (mother) might have a caterpillar lip and maybe even a some wild hairs growing from the chin.

Or she might not.It's not mentioned in the text.

 

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

As far as I recall, Mance requested six wildling women from Moletown for a ploy he had in mind. Edd went for the women at Jon's request. Mance had asked for pretty girls and Myrtle would not really be considered a looker, in fact only one of the women, Holly, is described as pretty by Theon, so there is some discrepancy between what was requested and provided.

Yes he did.The ongoing interesting part for me is the "ploy"-was he heading to Winterfell at this point?Or did he doubt Mel's intelligence and decide to head to a trusted source for verification?

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13 minutes ago, redriver said:

Yes he did.The ongoing interesting part for me is the "ploy"-was he heading to Winterfell at this point?Or did he doubt Mel's intelligence and decide to head to a trusted source for verification?

Who do you think Mance would consider to be a trusted source? You did bring up the Umbers up thread, but not sure you have someone else in mind here. 

At any rate, I find it unlikely that Mance would feel that confident about anyone’s trustworthiness south of the Wall. That’s why I think the more likely scenario is for Mance and co to sort of bump into Mors and his men. 

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18 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Who do you think Mance would consider to be a trusted source? You did bring up the Umbers up thread, but not sure you have someone else in mind here. 

At any rate, I find it unlikely that Mance would feel that confident about anyone’s trustworthiness south of the Wall. That’s why I think the more likely scenario is for Mance and co to sort of bump into Mors and his men. 

Someone who has already demonstrated an uncanny knowledge of what's going on in the north from the Wall to Winterfell.

I won't spoon-feed you that answer but the real subtextual question here is are there more real and esoteric links between the Wildlings and the Mountain Clans than we are led to believe?

I would suggest that there are.The treatment of a lord or king as "the" as in The Ned or The Mance seems to be uniquely held between Wildling and Mountain Clan cultures,for example..

 

Edited by redriver

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2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I was trying to find more info on when Mors arrives at Witnerfell’s gates but couldn’t find anything useful apart from the fact that Mors sides w/ Stannis early on in Dance

According to countless hours of tedious work done by readers who piece these things together, this is the chronology as of the latest version of the "precise timeline" that I can find, which was updated after the release of The Forsaken chapter. I refer to this but I honestly can't say how accurate it is. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/edit#gid=8

Mel reveals Mance to Jon a couple of weeks after Stannis departed from Castle Black. This is in the middle of the third month of the year 300.

Abel is first mentioned in Theon's The Prince of Winterfell chapter, which is about 3 months later. This is the first chapter set in Winterfell, and Theon's previous chapter was set at Barrowton.

Mors starts blowing horns in Theon's A Ghost in Winterfell chapter, which is about a month and a half after that, or the beginning of the eight month of the year 300.

22 minutes ago, redriver said:

The ongoing interesting part for me is the "ploy"-was he heading to Winterfell at this point?Or did he doubt Mel's intelligence and decide to head to a trusted source for verification?

I agree that the ploy he had in mind could very well be inspired by the story of Bael stealing a Stark maiden from Winterfell. But the Boltons may not have been in Winterfell yet, although it was obvious that they would go there for the wedding. Mance did leave Castle Black to search for a girl on a dying horse fleeing a wedding and Mel told him that in her vision the lake, which Mance assumes is Long Lake, was west of the girl. So I think Mance went there first, as it keeps him off the kingsroad and he knows some hidey-holes on the route that he has used from time to time. That route runs through Umber lands, and maybe some northern clan territory.

 

 

 

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