LOTR prequel TV series 2.0

[fionwe1987]

15 minutes ago, Krishtotter said:

 

I appreciate not wanting to transfer Aldarion and Erendis's story to others.

I wouldn't be too troubled by generally compacting the timeline, though. Cutting down the throughline from Aldarion to Tar Miriel to fewer generations doesn't seem super egregious to me.

 

Yes the intervening generations show a more gradual moral failure in Numenor, but even if they keep the timeline intact, those times will not be on the show. So having 20 Kings and Queens between Aldarion and Ar Pharazon would be pretty meaningless in the show, and serve to drastically reduce the dramatic tension, I think.

And having Eldarion in the story is also a useful way to introduce the line of his aunt, Silmarien. And in many ways, his treatment of Erendis is pretty impactful on the history of Numenor, and that tension and it's consequences are way more TV worthy, I feel.

I predict they'll move the forging of the Rings and battle of Gwathlo to his timeline. Then jump ahead a few hundred years instead of a couple of thousand, and focus on Mirleil, Pharazon and Elendil and his sons.

[Ran]

To me it feels like looking at the history of the Targaryens and going, "Okay... lets have Aegon die with two children, Aegon and Rhaenyra, and then they fight over the throne, and her son Aerys inherits, and then he goes crazy and gets overthrown by Robert Baratheon".

You're reducing Tolkien's world-building to a "greatest hits" album.

[fionwe1987]

12 minutes ago, Ran said:

To me it feels like looking at the history of the Targaryens and going, "Okay... lets have Aegon die with two children, Aegon and Rhaenyra, and then they fight over the throne, and her son Aerys inherits, and then he goes crazy and gets overthrown by Robert Baratheon".

You're reducing Tolkien's world-building to a "greatest hits" album.

No, the limits of tv does that. Whether you acknowledge the intervening generations or not, they definitely can't make it on air.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I'd actually be surprised if the series covers Aldarion and Erendis. 

Two reasons:

• This show is going to be linked together by Sauron. From the forging of the Rings to the last Alliance, he is the primary antagonist. There is no Sauron in Aldarion and Erendis.
• Aldarion and Erendis is a domestic drama. It's an interesting study of a relationship gone sour, but it isn't epic fantasy.

[Krishtotter]

52 minutes ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

I'd actually be surprised if the series covers Aldarion and Erendis. 

Two reasons:

• This show is going to be linked together by Sauron. From the forging of the Rings to the last Alliance, he is the primary antagonist. There is no Sauron in Aldarion and Erendis.
• Aldarion and Erendis is a domestic drama. It's an interesting study of a relationship gone sour, but it isn't epic fantasy.

Not strictly true. Your right that the narrative itself is shorn of many stereotypical 'high-fantasy' elements (even less so than the early seasons of GoT) and is rather a more psychologically-focused domestic drama in a royal setting, in which all the main characters are humans and the plot is concerned with the relationship dynamics between them.  

But Sauron hangs like a spectre in the background of Aldarion and Erendis. In a real sense, he is the cause of the relationship breakdown between the royal couple, not just Aldarion's love of the Sea and longer lifespan. Its only nearer the end of the story that we realise that Aldarion isn't just a terrible husband and absentee father to his young daughter Ancalime but that his entire focus is on protecting Middle-Earth (and Númenor) from the growing shadow about which dark rumours are starting to circulate abroad, such that in the tale Gil-galad sends an urgent letter to Tar-Minastir begging him to abandon Númenórean isolationism and build permanent settlements along the Gwathló, to bolster defences of Calenardhon, where he fears evil will one day come i.e. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar-Aldarion#Threat_of_Sauron_and_coronation

 

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When Aldarion returned from a long journey to Middle-earth, he presented a letter from Gil-galad of Lindon to his father, King Tar-Meneldur. In this letter Gil-galad described the new threat of Sauron which was descending upon Middle-earth and asked for help:

A new shadow rises in the East. It is no tyranny of evil Men, ..., but a servant of Morgoth is stirring and evil things wake again. Each year it gains in strength, for most Men are ripe for its purpose. ... And now I make a bold to seek your help. If you have any strength of Men to spare, lend it to me, I beg.

— Unfinished Tales: Aldarion and Erendis: The Mariner's Wife

When Tar-Meneldur thus learned of the extent of the danger, he abdicated in favour of his son, who he thought would be better able to deal with this new threat because of Aldarion's many travels and knowledge of Middle-earth. Aldarion thus became King of Númenor far earlier than would have been the normal case. The year was S.A. 883.

As king, Aldarion gave aid to Gil-galad, established new havens and bases (of which Vinyalondë was most notable) on the coasts of Middle-earth, and laid the groundwork in Númenor for the creation of a great naval power.

As far as Aldarion was concerned, these policies required his personal attention. His absences from his kingdom (on voyages to Middle-earth) were unprecedented, and began as early as the first couple of years of his reign. His first regent was Hallatan, a distant relative in the royal family.

Aldarion's efforts as king only worsened his conflicts with his wife, who had little care or interest for the world beyond Númenor, and who disdained seafaring and feared, and at times almost hated, the Sea. Her love was given directly to the woods and forests of Númenor and indirectly to the isolated and "innocent" realm of her youth, and Aldarion was changing both.

Twisted in her way by the war between her parents, and perhaps having inherited many of the worse traits of each, Aldarion's daughter, Ancalimë, grew up to be beautiful, but stubborn and wayward. Her father changed the inheritance laws of Númenor so that his daughter could inherit the Sceptre after him, doing this in part out of paternal feeling but probably more as a move in his war with his wife. In so doing he disinherited his nephew Soronto, and set a lasting precedent for the future. In due time Ancalimë did succeed her father, who passed the Sceptre to her, in accordance with Númenórean custom, some years before his death.

Christopher Tolkien provided some hints about his later history in Unfinished Tales.

"Aldarion was too late, or too early. Too late: for the power that hated Númenor had already waked. Too early: for the time was not yet ripe for Númenor to show its power or to come back into the battle for the world."

— Christopher Tolkien in Unfinished Tales: Aldarion and Erendis: The Mariner's Wife, Section: Further course of the narrative.

 

 

The narrative-frame is similar to that in GoT/ASOIAF in relation to the Others/White Walkers being in the background behind the Wall, while the civil wars tear apart Westeros and consume everyone's attention, save a far-sighted minority aware of the threat.

As the domestic squabbles and succession woes transpire over in wealthy, isolated Númenor, there is something dark and evil rising in the East. Erendis explains to Ancalime in UT: "The long life that they were granted deceives them, and they dally in the world, children in mind, until age finds them – and then many only forsake play out of doors for play in their houses. They turn their play into great matters and great matters into play...Númenor was to be a rest after war. But if they weary of rest and the plays of peace, soon they will go back to their great play, manslaying and war".

So, we have two radically opposed visions of Númenor played out in one fraught and difficult marriage: Erendis' view of a pacifist, isolated natural paradise removed from continental affairs (a sceptred isle) or Aldarion's of an expansionist superpower with ostensibly benevolent aims (to resist this alleged shadow represented by a 'servant of Morgoth' (Sauron)), but increasingly overtaken in practice by lust for ever long life, imperial corruption and internal division. 

Obviously, these themes become more important later on after the Eregion war, when Sauron unveils himself with the ring of power and Númenor finally abandons its isolation from Middle-Earth affairs, becomes the imperial superpower of the continent and then two competing political factions emerge, the King's Men and the Faithful, leading to actual rebellion and civil strife in the kingdom (as people start trying ever more stay "young" and ward of mortality, a morbid cult of death takes hold and then Sauron comes in and corrupts the entire nation still more, resulting in human sacrifices and a fruitless war for immortality against the Valar).

See also: 

http://askmiddlearth.tumblr.com/post/77185181504/gil-galads-letter-to-tar-meneldur-the-response

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Real quick, though, for those who have no idea what we’re talking about: In the year 882 SA, Gil-galad sent a letter to Tar-Meneldur, the king of Numenor (via the king’s son, Aldarion). The letter covered a few different topics, but the main points were these: there was a new threat growing in the east, a servant of Morgoth (Sauron). Aldarion had been working with Gil-galad to prepare a defense against him, but Gil-galad was asking Tar-Meneldur to give more aid - specifically, more men to man a settlement Aldarion had founded along the river Gwathlo.

Tar-Meneldur’s response to the letter is interesting. The focus of the story is really on the relationships Aldarion had with his father and wife, and so there’s more attention given to the emotional impact of the letter than anything. But Tolkien still describes the struggle Tar-Meneldur had with the political implications. Unable to decide whether it was better to prepare his people for war (abandoning peace), or risk them dying unprepared (but remaining a peaceful people), Tar-Meneldur finally decided that he simply didn’t know enough about the situation. So, his decision was basically to hand the decision off to his son by abdicating the throne earlier than he’d originally planned. He’d make Aldarion king (and so he’s then known as Tar-Aldarion), and let him decide how to respond to Gil-galad’s letter (though Tar-Meneldur pretty much knew that it would be the less-peaceful option that Tar-Aldarion would choose.)

From here the focus of the story shifts back to relationships and emotions...Vinyalonde, the settlement that Tar-Aldarion had founded, remained important. Not only was it the first permanent Numenorean settlement in Middle Earth, but it was said that Tar-Aldarion “laid the foundation for the achievement of Tar-Minastir long years after, in the first war with Sauron, and but for his works the fleets of Numenor could not have brought their power in time to the right place - as he foresaw.” 

The true importance of the letter was more abstract - it alerted the Numenoreans to the existence of Sauron, and led to a change in their relationship with Gil-galad from a casual, friendly one to a more focused political/military alliance. Because of this letter, Numenor was much more prepared to fight Sauron 800 years later than they otherwise might have been.

 

So, Aldarion and Erendis is actually intensely linked to the later Númenórean intervention in the Eregion war under Tar-Minastir, courtesy of their settlement of Lond Daer (on the Gwathlo, or 'Vinyalonde') from which they successfully repel Sauron's forces in SA 1700.

[fionwe1987]

39 minutes ago, Krishtotter said:

 

Yup. In Aldarion's naval expansion is the seed of Numenorian colonialism, which I find to be a sharp rebuke by Tolkien of colonialism in general.

And Erendis knew of his true purposes long before the king. And while I feel Tolkien doesn't explore her view nearly enough, I think her criticisms are valid. In a way, Aldarion's actions were escalations that set the stage for Sauron's deep hatred of the Numenorian, which ultimately leads to their downfall. I hope the show actually delves into this. Whether the cast in Numenor changes season to season, or they compress the timeline, I feel Aldarion and Erendis actually is the fulcrum that has great thematic significance to the Akallabeth. Ignoring it would be a missed opportunity, especially since Erendis is likely going to be the one of the only female characters from the Second Age to have any impact in the story.

 

I'm not at all sure how a very male dominated story will fly anyway. That aspect of Tolkien's work is something that will play less and less well on screen, especially as Amazon will be simultaneously broadcasting Wheel of Time, which is going to offer a sharp contrast.

[Krishtotter]

40 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Yup. In Aldarion's naval expansion is the seed of Numenorian colonialism, which I find to be a sharp rebuke by Tolkien of colonialism in general.

And Erendis knew of his true purposes long before the king. And while I feel Tolkien doesn't explore her view nearly enough, I think her criticisms are valid. In a way, Aldarion's actions were escalations that set the stage for Sauron's deep hatred of the Numenorian, which ultimately leads to their downfall. I hope the show actually delves into this. Whether the cast in Numenor changes season to season, or they compress the timeline, I feel Aldarion and Erendis actually is the fulcrum that has great thematic significance to the Akallabeth. Ignoring it would be a missed opportunity, especially since Erendis is likely going to be the one of the only female characters from the Second Age to have any impact in the story.

 

I'm not at all sure how a very male dominated story will fly anyway. That aspect of Tolkien's work is something that will play less and less well on screen, especially as Amazon will be simultaneously broadcasting Wheel of Time, which is going to offer a sharp contrast.

Great points and I completely agree with you regarding the importance of Aldarion and Erendis, as the fulcrum where all the themes to later dominate in the Second Age first take root, most importantly the colonialism that destroyed them. As you note, this is in accord with Tolkien’s own views, as in this letter to his son in 1945:

 

Though in this case, as I know nothing about British or American imperialism in the Far East that does not fill me with regret and disgust, I am afraid I am not even supported by a glimmer of patriotism in this remaining war. I would not subscribe a penny to it, let alone a son, were I a free man.

For I love England (not Great Britain and certainly not the British Commonwealth (grr!))

Tolkien's England - typified by the Shire - was a "pastoral idyll", an idealized pre-imperial, pre-industrial revolution England before it became the colonizing "Britannia, ruling the waves", fat on the largess of the labour of subject foreign nations. Tolkien would have concurred with William Blake's famous reference in the patriotic English anthem, Jerusalem (1804), to "England's mountains green" and "pastures seen" that had been corrupted by the "dark Satanic Mills" of industry, trade and imperial avarice. 

Throughout the Akallabeth, Tolkien uses the word 'dominion' as a continual refrain: the Númenóreans sought 'dominion' over the lesser peoples; dominion over the gods; dominion, ultimately, over death itself. 

In a letter to his son Christopher, Tolkien wrote; 

 

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"I should have hated the Roman Empire in its day (as I do), and remained a patriotic citizen, while preferring a free Gaul and seeing good in Carthaginians" (Letters 89). 

And we must remember that, inasmuch as Faramir gave voice to the Gondorian typology of ethnicity, he also expressed himself in terms of the strident anti-imperialism of his Faithful 'Elendili' forbears, who had opposed the imperialist 'King's Party' and Ar-Pharazon: 

 

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"For myself," said Faramir, "I would see the White Tree in flower again in the courts of the kings, and the Silver Crown return, and Minas Tirith in peace: Minas Anor again as of old, full of light, high and fair, beautiful as a queen among other queens: not a mistress of many slaves, nay, not even a kind mistress of willing slaves. War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Númenor; and I would have her loved for her memory, her ancientry, her beauty, and her present wisdom. Not feared, save as men may fear the dignity of a man, old and wise." 

I think this reached its height in an excerpt from The Lost Road and Other Works, concerning a discussion between Elendil and his son (later known as Isildur, but here Herendil) regarding Sauron's subversion of Númenor.

Elendil is frightened that he is losing his son to the cult of Sauron, while his son fears that his father will lose his life for resisting the new state creed:

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[Herendil] 'They [the followers of Sauron] say now that the tale was altered by the Eresseans, who are slaves of the Lords [Valar]: that in truth Earendel was an adventurer, and showed us the way, and that the Lords of the West took him captive for that reason; and his work is perforce unfinished. Therefore the son of Earendel, our king, should complete it. They wish to do what has been long left undone.'

[Elendil] 'What is that?'

'You know: to set foot in the far West, and not withdraw it. To conquer new realms for our race, and ease the pressure of this peopled island, where every road is trodden hard, and every tree and grass-blade counted. To be free, and masters of the world. To escape the shadow of sameness, and of ending. We would make our king Lord of the West. Death comes here slow and seldom; yet it comes. The land is only a cage gilded to look like Paradise.' ...

 

 

In terms of female presence, gender parity actually fares much better in the Second Age than the Third, I think. 

You have three Númenórean Queens, including Tar-Ancalime. Indeed, the forging of the rings takes place under the reign of one of Númenor's Queens i.e.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tar-Telperiën

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Tar-Telperiën was the tenth monarch of Númenor and its second Ruling Queen. She was the eldest child of Tar-Súrion, and a proud and willful ruler.

It is stated in The Line of Elros that she refused to wed, and so died without an heir. During her rule in Númenor, momentous events took place in Middle-earth: the Rings of Power were forged and the War of the Elves and Sauron began. Despite the ancient alliance between the Dúnedain and the Elves, Tar-Telperiën did not interfere in these matters; her successor had to deal with Middle-earth's troubles.

Tar-Telperiën was long-lived even for one of Elros' line, and appeared to be reluctant to give up her power: unlike all the rulers of Númenor before her, she did not surrender the Sceptre to her successor a few years before her death, but instead waited until just prior to it.

 

 

So if they begin there, we'd have a Queen on the throne.

You have Erendis, Galadriel (who, in Unfinished Tales, is the principal mover in the lead-up to the Eregion war and the main antagonist of Annatar-Sauron). You have Silmarien, progenitor of the Elendili; Firiel, Lindorie the mother of Tar-Palantir who instilled the faith of Iluvatar in him, Zamin; Fimbrethil (potentially) and more.

But there are time elapses between many of these women, so I do agree that having movers and shakers as largely male could present a problem for TV in 2019 (as we saw with the Hobbit movies creating a new character, Tauriel). 

[fionwe1987]

47 minutes ago, Krishtotter said:

Great points and I completely agree with you regarding the importance of Aldarion and Erendis, as the fulcrum where all the themes to later dominate in the Second Age first take root, most importantly the colonialism that destroyed them. As you note, this is in accord with Tolkien’s own views, as in this letter to his son in 1945:

 

Though in this case, as I know nothing about British or American imperialism in the Far East that does not fill me with regret and disgust, I am afraid I am not even supported by a glimmer of patriotism in this remaining war. I would not subscribe a penny to it, let alone a son, were I a free man.

For I love England (not Great Britain and certainly not the British Commonwealth (grr!))

Tolkien's England - typified by the Shire - was a "pastoral idyll", an idealized pre-imperial, pre-industrial revolution England before it became the colonizing "Britannia, ruling the waves", fat on the largess of the labour of subject foreign nations. Tolkien would have concurred with William Blake's famous reference in the patriotic English anthem, Jerusalem (1804), to "England's mountains green" and "pastures seen" that had been corrupted by the "dark Satanic Mills" of industry, trade and imperial avarice. 

Throughout the Akallabeth, Tolkien uses the word 'dominion' as a continual refrain: the Númenóreans sought 'dominion' over the lesser peoples; dominion over the gods; dominion, ultimately, over death itself. 

In a letter to his son Christopher, Tolkien wrote; 

 

And we must remember that, inasmuch as Faramir gave voice to the Gondorian typology of ethnicity, he also expressed himself in terms of the strident anti-imperialism of his Faithful 'Elendili' forbears, who had opposed the imperialist 'King's Party' and Ar-Pharazon: 

 

I think this reached its height in an excerpt from The Lost Road and Other Works, concerning a discussion between Elendil and his son (later known as Isildur, but here Herendil) regarding Sauron's subversion of Númenor.

Elendil is frightened that he is losing his son to the cult of Sauron, while his son fears that his father will lose his life for resisting the new state creed:

 

In terms of female presence, gender parity actually fares much better in the Second Age than the Third, I think. 

You have three Númenórean Queens, including Tar-Ancalime. Indeed, the forging of the rings takes place under the reign of one of Númenor's Queens i.e.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tar-Telperiën

 

So if they begin there, we'd have a Queen on the throne.

You have Erendis, Galadriel (who, in Unfinished Tales, is the principal mover in the lead-up to the Eregion war and the main antagonist of Annatar-Sauron). You have Silmarien, progenitor of the Elendili; Firiel, Lindorie the mother of Tar-Palantir who instilled the faith of Iluvatar in him, Zamin; Fimbrethil (potentially) and more.

But there are time elapses between many of these women, so I do agree that having movers and shakers as largely male could present a problem for TV in 2019 (as we saw with the Hobbit movies creating a new character, Tauriel). 

Yes, Galadriel for certain would be a major presence. But we know very little of the Numenorian Queens, except that two of them were isolationists, and the third would have worked to aid the Eldar, but was forced into marriage to a guy who all but usurped her throne.

 

The others you mention have some role, but nothing that's going to count for much on screen. So the writers are going to have to expand their parts.

[Krishtotter]

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

Yes, Galadriel for certain would be a major presence. But we know very little of the Numenorian Queens, except that two of them were isolationists, and the third would have worked to aid the Eldar, but was forced into marriage to a guy who all but usurped her throne.

 

The others you mention have some role, but nothing that's going to count for much on screen. So the writers are going to have to expand their parts.

Yep, I agree that the writers will need to flesh the female characters out substantially.

We actually know quite a bit about Queen Tar-Ancalime, because she has a speaking role in Aldarion and Erendis, and even escapes the court to hide away from suitors as a sheperdess, until she marries her husband Hallacar and has her own unhappy union, in which they both try to outsmart, belittle and subjugate one another. As a ruler, after her father changes the succession for her, she rejects his policy of foreign engagement and becomes isolationist, as you noted. 

In other words, she does what her mother Erendis would have wanted.

I also forgot about Queen Almarian, Aldarion's mother. She has a dialogue throughout the tale and is the one who 'arranges' the fateful marriage between the couple, in an attempt to 'cure' her son of his desire to voyage beyond Númenor i.e.

 

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Of the King he got but grudging leave, for he refused his father's urging that he abide in Númenor and seek a wife; and he set sail in the spring of the year. But coming to bid farewell to his mother he saw Erendis amid the Queen's company; and looking on her beauty he divined the strength that lay concealed in her. Then Almarian said to him: "Must you depart again, Aldarion, my son? Is there nothing that will hold you in the fairest of all mortal lands?"...

"Not yet," he answered; "but there are fairer things in Armenelos than a man could find elsewhere, even in the lands of the Eldar. But mariners are men of two minds, at war with themselves; and the desire of the Sea still holds me."Yet now he met Erendis often (and that was by contrivance of the Queen); and the King learning of their meetings felt disquiet, yet he was not displeased. "It would be more kind to cure Aldarion of his restlessness," said he, "before he win the heart of any woman." "How else will you cure him, if not by love?" said the Queen. "Erendis is yet young," said Meneldur. But Almarian answered: "The kin of Erendis have not the length of life that is granted to the descendants of Elros; and her heart is already won."...

Now when the great ship Palarran was built Aldarion would depart once more. At this Meneldur became wrathful, though by the persuasions of the Queen he would not use the King's power to stay him. Here must be told of the custom that when a ship departed from Númenor over the Great Sea to Middle-earth a woman, most often of the captain's kin, should set upon the vessel's prow the Green Bough of Return; and that was cut from the tree oiolairë, that signifies "Ever-summer," which the Eldar gave to the Númenóreans, 12 saying that they set it upon their own ships in token of friendship with Ossë and Uinen.

The leaves of that tree were evergreen, glossy and fragrant; and it throve upon sea-air. But Meneldur forbade the Queen and the sisters of Aldarion to bear the bough of oiolairë to Rómenna where lay the Palarran, saying that he refused his blessing to his son, who was venturing forth against his will; and Aldarion hearing this said: "If I must go without blessing or bough, then so I will go." Then the Queen was grieved; but Erendis said to her: "Tarihya, if you will cut the bough from the Elven-tree, I will bear it to the haven, by your leave; for the King has not forbidden it to me." The mariners thought it an ill thing that the Captain should depart thus; but when all was made ready and men prepared to weigh anchor Erendis came there, little though she loved the noise and bustle of the great harbour and the crying of the gulls. Aldarion greeted her with amazement and joy; and she said: "I have brought you the Bough of Return, lord: from the Queen."

 

 

Unfortunately, three very prominent and fleshed-out female characters - Erendis, Almarian and Ancalime - are all to be found in Aldarion and Erendis. 

So, we have a time-frame issue since this series will likely be set around the the ring forging, just over some 800 years later (about two Númenórean royal lifespans).

As for Galadriel, there is a ton of material on her in Unfinished Tales, including a huge dialogue scene with Celebrimbor. Amazon will need to harmonize the best parts, however, since the accounts are all contradictory. (i.e. Aldarion even meets her: "It is also slated that "no records are now left of the later voyages that Aldarion made," but that "it is known that he went much on land as well as sea, and went up the River Gwathló as far as Tharbad, and there met Galadriel.")

She is the first to realise that Sauron's shadow is rising in Middle-Earth, as Tolkien writes in UT:

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Galadriel became aware that Sauron again, as in the ancient days of the captivity of Melkor had been left behind. Or rather, since Sauron had as yet no single name, and his operations had not been perceived to proceed from a single evil spirit, prime servant of Melkor, she perceived that there was an evil controlling purpose abroad in the world, and that it seemed to proceed from a source further to the East, beyond Eriador and the Misty Mountains...

Celeborn and Galadriel therefore went eastwards, about the year 700 of the Second Age, and established the (primarily but by no means solely) Noldorin realm of Eregion. It may be that Galadriel chose it because she knew of the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm (Moria).

In any case, Galadriel was more far-sighted in this than Celeborn; and she perceived from the beginning that Middle-earth could not be saved from "the residue of evil" that Morgoth had left behind him save by a union of all the peoples who were in their way and in their measure opposed to him. She looked upon the Dwarves also with the eye of a commander, seeing in them the finest warriors to pit against the Orcs....

In Eregion Sauron posed as an emissary of the Valar, sent by them to Middle-earth ("thus anticipating the Istari") or ordered by them to remain there to give aid to the Elves. He perceived at once that Galadriel would be his chief adversary and obstacle, and he endeavoured therefore to placate her, bearing her scorn with outward patience and courtesy.

Sauron used all his arts upon Celebrimbor and his fellow-smiths, who had formed a society or brotherhood, very powerful in Eregion, the Gwaith-i-Mírdain; but he worked in secret, unknown to Galadriel and Celeborn. Before long Sauron had the Gwaith-i- Mírdain under his influence, for at first they had great profit from his instruction in secret matters of their craft. 8 So great became his hold on the Mírdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion. Galadriel thereupon left Eregion and passed through Khazad-dûm to Lórinand, taking with her Amroth and Celebrían; but Celeborn would not enter the mansions of the Dwarves, and he remained behind in Eregion, disregarded by Celebrimbor. In Lórinand Galadriel took up rule, and defence against Sauron.

 

 

So, she at least, is really the prime mover-and-shaker in this earlier phase before the focus is predominantly upon Númenor. 

 

[Werthead]

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Why did Amazon choose them, when they have the pick of whomsoever they like with regards to Showrunners? People would literally die to work with Amazon's millions, so the choice is a little mistifying.

 

They don't have the pick of whomever they like, though. They have to go with people who are available, and most of the good, experienced showrunning talent in Hollywood is massively tapped out. The "Golden Age of Television" has seen the number of scripted TV shows on American television more than double in just seven years. There aren't enough experienced writers out there to help generate all this content.

That, combined with Amazon's contractual agreement to get the show in production by November 2019 or lose the rights (and $250 million with them), is the root cause of the problem and why they ended up withe very slim pickings.

[Krishtotter]

40 minutes ago, Werthead said:

They don't have the pick of whomever they like, though. They have to go with people who are available, and most of the good, experienced showrunning talent in Hollywood is massively tapped out. The "Golden Age of Television" has seen the number of scripted TV shows on American television more than double in just seven years. There aren't enough experienced writers out there to help generate all this content.

That, combined with Amazon's contractual agreement to get the show in production by November 2019 or lose the rights (and $250 million with them), is the root cause of the problem and why they ended up withe very slim pickings.

True, perhaps I exaggerated somewhat, but that still doesn't mean they had to opt for showrunners with zero credits (even with the accelerated timeframe negotiated vis-a-vis the Tolkien Estate, and the dearth of screenwriters on account of the gazillion shows being trundled out).

This is a huge, global brand with millions of fans that Amazon needs to get right.

Two unknown amateurs are a massive gamble I'm surprised they went for. Slim pickings or otherwise, they could still have managed someone with an actual resume of work behind them, surely!

I was gobsmacked by the lack of credits of the pair when their selection was first announced.

But the timeframe is exceedingly tight, so I do understand why that might frighten off experienced screenwriters.

[Ran]

They didn't just have to pick from Hollywood, it must be said. NZ, Canada, the UK all have English-speaking people with some sort of credits, some of them with international cachet and credits. I, too, question these guys landing it. But we'll see. 

If we learn that the reason they landed it was "We were the only ones who pitched who didn't want to do an immediate LotR prequel", that will be a bit terrifying.

[Krishtotter]

12 minutes ago, Ran said:

They didn't just have to pick from Hollywood, it must be said. NZ, Canada, the UK all have English-speaking people with some sort of credits, some of them with international cachet and credits. I, too, question these guys landing it. But we'll see. 

If we learn that the reason they landed it was "We were the only ones who pitched who didn't want to do an immediate LotR prequel", that will be a bit terrifying.

All good points.

Yes, the decision does give me pause and, as you say, the pool of talent needn't have been confined to the US if the well over there has dried up in recent years.

I guess we shall have to wait and see what transpires.

[fionwe1987]

It is, of course, very possible that they'll begin production with these guys, and find more experienced replacement soon after.

[red snow]

It's also a huge gamble to pick relatively unknown showrunners when there is such a production schedule as surely they are more likely to drop the ball? I guess they maybe have talented people to handle the logistics of where to film and costumes/sets/casting etc. It's never entirely clear to me how much the showrunners do (i often assume it must mean everything in terms if signing off decisions) but maybe their role is mainly from a story/episides/season and overall tone perspective?

I think the only riskier choice would have been hiring Bryan Fuller as he could have easily changed his mind and disappeared at any point putting the whole deadline at risk.

Maybe the showrunners had to sign an agreement whereby if the show doesn't meet the deadline then they miss out in a huge payday? I could see thst kind of deal putting bigger fish off. The current showrunners are maybe on a relatively "paltry" salary and only hit payday if they haven't wasted 250 million dollars by getting the show made in time? Still a risky way to make a show where it could encourage shortcuts just to get it made. Then again for 250 million i imagine they'd repeat the WOT pilot if it means saving that amount of money

[Krishtotter]

7 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

It is, of course, very possible that they'll begin production with these guys, and find more experienced replacement soon after.

I've mulled over this as a possibility. 

As I noted earlier, Bryan Cogman has signed an "overall" deal with Amazon (which means that he must exclusively develop all his material under the auspices of the network), implying that they could easily transfer him to LoTR if they felt so inclined. 

They could, I guess, also sign such a deal with another screenwriter slightly later down the line and teleport him/her in. 

[red snow]

15 minutes ago, Krishtotter said:

I've mulled over this as a possibility. 

As I noted earlier, Bryan Cogman has signed an "overall" deal with Amazon (which means that he must exclusively develop all his material under the auspices of the network), implying that they could easily transfer him to LoTR if they felt so inclined. 

They could, I guess, also sign such a deal with another screenwriter slightly later down the line and teleport him/her in. 

I'd be curious to see what cogman is working on. He seems to be a fantasy writer/producer so LOTR or WOT seem obvious candidates unless they are developing something else or he's trying his hand at something different.

[Krishtotter]

8 minutes ago, red snow said:

I'd be curious to see what cogman is working on. He seems to be a fantasy writer/producer so LOTR or WOT seem obvious candidates unless they are developing something else or he's trying his hand at something different.

Given the wide-ranging implications of the deal, I imagine it could be all of those things. LoTR or WoT and completely original material. He's going to be working for them in the long-haul now. 

I find it hard to imagine that they are producing two high-budget epic fantasy dramas and have head-hunted a guy who has himself wrote episodes of the world's best-performing, Emmy-awarded example of the genre on television, and wouldn't consult him for any advice or include him in the writer's room that is supposedly under lock-and-key at the minute. 

His contract was signed months after they announced the two showrunners last year, so it's possible he could already be the 'replacement' we are speculating about as a possibility. 

But, we shall see. 

There have been no press-releases yet (since, like, July 2018) or information pumped out other than the map reveals. So, we don't really know what's going on behind closed doors at Amazon HQ vis-a-vis LoTR. It's been a remarkably cloak and dagger affair thus far. 

[Krishtotter]

On 3/17/2019 at 2:18 PM, Ran said:

To me it feels like looking at the history of the Targaryens and going, "Okay... lets have Aegon die with two children, Aegon and Rhaenyra, and then they fight over the throne, and her son Aerys inherits, and then he goes crazy and gets overthrown by Robert Baratheon".

You're reducing Tolkien's world-building to a "greatest hits" album.

So far as I can tell, the Second Age is laid out very disparately, which presents something of a problem for adaption purposes. Amazon seem to want to tell one grand yarn on the scale of LoTR and GoT. 

There are really only three major contiguous, self-contained narratives in the SA (all interrelated through the influence, whether off-stage or on-stage, of Sauron) that could easily be dramatized as they are without time-compression, alongside a lot of chronological material between these 'epochs' that offer the potential of being fleshed out into something compelling but are undeveloped and rudimentary as they stand: 

 

1) Aldarion and Erendis - a domestic, character-driven court drama in Númenor which includes "one of Tolkien’s most direct critiques of British imperialism, its clarity aided by the geographic correlation between Britain and Númenor". It relays the tale of how the island kingdom "first became involved in the affairs of mainland Middle-earth through the exploratory voyages of Aldarion" setting in motion a corrosive "pattern of pride and desire for conquest in the actions of Aldarion that will lead to Númenor’s downfall thousands of years later" and where the focus is overwhelmingly prefixed around the "moral corruption of the colonizer". This is achieved by investigating these themes through the literary device of a failed marriage: "by taking opposing positions towards imperialism, [Aldarion and Erendis] present a debate in the form of a lover’s quarrel [in which] Erendis challenges Aldarion’s explorations and land annexations as a morally sound expression of patriotism". In this way, Tolkien is able to show how the "decline directly results from a cultural shift in how we assign value to things. In Tolkien’s tales, colonization inevitably commodifies personal and natural resources and justifies questionable actions in pursuit of the dream of progress" (Elizabeth Massa Hoiem, World Creation as Colonization: British Imperialism in "Aldarion and Erendis", Tolkien Studies, Volume 2, 2005, pp. 75-92). 

In itself, this is a fascinating character study and fulcrum for the origin of these themes, as well as being Tolkien's only near-complete prose account from the Second Age, but it's a slow-burner without much in the way of "epic" action. It also takes place much too early in the SA, in the 9th century or thereabouts, for the TV series proper to centre around without relocating its essentials to as later period. 

2) The Forging of the Rings of Power and Eregion War - the action-packed 'pivot' of the Second Age, involving its most stereotypically 'high fantasy' elements, and taking place roughly between SA 1600 - 1800. All about the elven-smiths of the Mirdain and their idealistic desire to rejuvenate the scarred lands of Middle-Earth and preserve its beauty, such that they become ripe for Sauron's manipulation in the guise of Annatar, with his ostensible 'fair' early motives and anger at the neglect by the Valar. Galadriel, Elrond, Gil-galad and Celeborn feature prominently, as do the Dwarves of Khazad-Dum and the Númenóreans when they decide to intervene in the resulting continental war that devastates Eregion, and begin to permanently settle in and exploit the native peoples of Middle-Earth. If they follow the Unfinished Tales version of this story, there is a coup d'état in Eregion by Celebrimbor and his smiths against Galadriel which, when paired with internal Númenórean angst over whether to abandon isolationism and embrace intervention and empire, could provide very interesting dramatic tension and plotlines. 

3) The Downfall of Númenor and the Last Alliance - by far the most 'epic' single narrative from the Second Age and easily the one with the potential of being the most visually pleasing spectacle, as well as providing significant drama in both Númenor (as it falls into an almost nightmarish totalitarian militarism, paranoia and megalomania in its attempt to evade mortality and achieve supremacy) and in Middle-Earth (involving Sauron at the height of his power in tandem with the final attempt to rally an alliance of the Free Peoples against him). It's a little like Pompeii meets Atlantis meets the Omen, and is for the most part a rather dark and disturbing story only with a satisfying, climactic end that even casual audience viewers are familiar with from the trilogy's prologue. The time-span would be from circa S.A. 3255 - 3430 (roughly 200 years, much like the Eregion war, with a consistent set of main characters). 

It would begin under the reign of the benevolent but weak Tar-Palantir, as this far-sighted monarch tries to amend the evil of his ancestors and prevent the divisions of Númenórean society, rearing his heir Míriel to be a good Queen. But there is a rebellion by the anti-Valar King's Men, and their leader Ar-Pharazin usurps the throne by forcibly marrying Míriel and then marching on Middle-Earth to subdue Sauron at Umbar. Sauron then deceives Númenor into thinking that they can attain immortality by worshipping Melkor, making human sacrifices, conquering and cruelly treating the natives of Middle-Earth and then waging war against the gods themselves. His great Armada fails, Númenor is sunk, the Faithful under Amandil and Elendil flee; they found the realms in exile and then they ally with the Elves to fight Sauron for the last time. They win, Isildur takes the One Ring but perishes in the Disaster of the Gladden Fields. The End. 

As you can see, each of these stories is bound together by pretty much the same themes of mortality, imperial dominion, moral corruption, power etc. and they all begin in germinal form in Aldarion's fateful voyages to Middle-Earth. 

It looks like Amazon have the rights to significant portions of each of these narratives, with at the very least the Appendices to LoTR and Unfinished Tales being in the game. Their maps began, oddly, in the middle of the third narrative - just after the downfall of Númenor in the century long interlude between the foundation of Arnor and Gondor and the Last Alliance of Elves and Men. The place-names, however, betray a significant influence from Aldarion and Erendis and deliberately drew the reader's attention to a string of Númenórean colonial outposts along the western seaboard of Middle-Earth. 

Then, their fifth map suddenly teleported back in  time to just before the Eregion war, when the rings were forged (narrative 2). 

I don't know what this means. It might be wiser for Amazon to simply choose one of the 'complete' narratives above but I feel their ambition could be for something grander in scope, which unfortunately warrants time-compression. 

Alternately, the main narrative could be #3 but with flashbacks of #2 sprinkled about and some inspiration from #1.

 

[Krishtotter]

@Ran I've been having some thoughts, again, about the possible timescale of the show's plot and re-assessed some of my earlier hypotheses, accordingly. And the upshot of my dawning realization, my light-bulb moment...is that I think you were basically correct in your ideas and I was, initially, in error - although my dating is now slightly different your original proposal. After reading through Tolkien's dates of the SA from the Tale of Years and the Númenórean monarchs' chronicle in Unfinished Tales, it has occurred to me that the main plotline of the show will likely commence under the reign of Aldarion's daughter, Tar-Ancalime - meaning that Aldarion and Erendis will become essential backstory to the main series that may, therefore, be depicted initially or through flashback from Ancalime's point-of-view as an elderly Númenórean Queen now fearing her death and reflecting on her life. OK, so you are thinking: "wait, isn't Aldarion and Erendis, like, really r-ea-lly earlier in the history of the SA?" Well, it does take place near the end of the first millennium and beginning (nearly 3 centuries if you take it up to when Tar-Ancalime surrenders the throne in 1280 S.A.) of the second millennium, but the salient fact of the matter is that the events between Tar-Aldarion's surrender of the sceptre to his daughter in 1075 and the forging of the rings of power between 1300-1395 require much less time-compression than leaping from the end of the Eregion war in 1700 awaaaay to Tar-Palantir and the Ar-Pharazon usurpation in 3177 - 3255. Remember that Númenórean royals and other nobles can live for a maximum of 400 years, or thereabouts. Some slight tampering of dates could be employed to create a relatively seamless story ranging from circa 1200 - 1700 and covering everything from the twilight years of the embittered, man-hating Tar-Ancalime (1200 - 1280), the forging of the rings of power and Annatar's deception of Celebrimbor and the smiths of the Mírdain, the One Ring, the Eregion War and the Númenórean intervention (and resulting shadow following upon Númenor plus the start of the nasty colonialism and the corruption of the Nazgul). Let's familiarise ourselves again with the dates of both the critical mid-SA events concerning the rings of power and the reigns of the applicable Númenórean monarchs that tie in with them.   Quote c. 1200 Sauron endeavours to seduce the Eldar. Gil-galad refuses to treat with him; but the smiths of Eregion are won over. The Númenoreans begin to make permanent havens. c. 1500 The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power. 1590 The Three Rings are completed in Eregion. c. 1600 Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dûr. Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron. 1693 War of the Elves and Sauron begins. The Three Rings are hidden. 1695 Sauron's forces invade Eriador. Gil-galad sends Elrond to Eregion. 1697 Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut. Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris. 1699 Sauron overruns Eriador. 1700 Tar-Minastir sends a great navy from Númenor to Lindon. Sauron is defeated. 1701 Sauron is driven out of Eriador. The Westlands have peace for a long while. c. 1800 From about this time onward the Númenoreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. Sauron extends his power eastwards. The shadow falls on Númenor. Now, let's take a glance at the reigning Númenórean monarchs during this period in the second millennium of the SA, complete with the years of their rule:   Quote Tar-Ancalime (1075 - 1280) Tar-Anarion (1280 - 1394) Tar-Súrion (1394 - 1556) Tar-Telperien (1556 - 1731) Tar-Minastir (1731 - 1869) Tar-Ciryatan (1869 - 2029) As you can see, Tar-Ancalime - daughter of Aldarion and Erendis - is still on the throne at the time when Annatar first appears in Lindon and Eregion, and begins his work of instructing, beguiling and winning over the Noldor of Eregion under Celebrimbor, with the ultimate intent of his being to gain their trust incrementally so that he could make them forge the rings of power, which actually begins under the reign of Tar-Ancalime's son Tar-Anarion and is completed under his heir, Tar-Ancalime grandson Súrion, in 1390. The One Ring is then forged under the reign of the second ruling Queen, Tar-Telperien under whose rule the Eregion War begins. Tar-Súrion would be on the throne of Númenor from circa. 1394 - 1556, when his daughter Tar-Telperien would succeed him, not long before the Three Rings are forged. This is curious, we are told in UT, because her father Súrion had a son and the law was that "the (eldest) daughter of a King should succeed, if he had no sons" - so she must have been a pretty strong-willed lady to overtake her brother's greater claim to the throne (how did she achieve it?), and we learn that she "refused to wed" and so appointed her nephew Minastir as heir to the throne. Telperien refrains from getting involved in the Eregion war, so the show would probably (alongside the events of the ring forging) scrutinize the politics of Númenor, between (at this point) isolationists like Erendis who wanted nothing to do with Middle-Earth or 'foreign wars' and adventurer-interventionists (following in the footsteps of Tar-Aldarion) who, we are told, establish the first permanent overseas havens of the Númenóreans in the 1200s. Her nephew Tar-Minastir, the heir, intervenes in the war (decisively) when he takes the throne, so we would see him occupying the 'interventionist' side, and we are told that despite his intervening on the 'good side' this is when the first hint of the 'shadow' arises in Númenor. His son Ciryatan fights in the war and becomes a greedy imperialist who goes on to oppress the natives of Middle-Earth when he takes the throne, forcing his father to abdicate early. Everything ties in neatly, I think, because the scriptwriters would positively want the audience to see beloved or at least key Númenórean characters growing old and dying while their Elven compatriots live on (and the even swifter lives of the Middle-Earth natives whom the long-lived Númenóreabns come to tyrannize and subjugate as biological inferiors), to hit home the reasons for the coming of the shadow and the ultimate fall of the 'paradise' kingdom of the sea. And yet, the 500 year timeframe between 1200 - 1700 enables all of the events to take place, roughly, just outside one Númenórean lifetime (equivalent to 80 - 100 years of a normal human lifespan) and the narrative frame could be viewed from that perspective, as a Númenórean would perceive the passage of time. In this eventuality, it now makes sense to me why we might have been getting numerous Aldarion and Erendis hints from the map - such as Ras Morthil, Lond Daer and the final map evidently showing Middle-Earth before Sauron begins the construction of the tower of Barad-Dur in Mordor around the year 1000. The show, quite literally, may be going to start under the reign of their daughter! Aldarion and Erendis, is really the fulcrum where all the themes to later dominate in the Second Age first take root. Sauron hangs like a spectre in the background of Aldarion and Erendis. In a real sense, he is the cause of the relationship breakdown between the royal couple, not just Aldarion's love of the Sea and longer lifespan. Its only nearer the end of the story that we realise that Aldarion isn't just a terrible husband and absentee father to his young daughter Ancalime but that his entire focus is on protecting Middle-Earth (and Númenor) from the growing shadow about which dark rumours are starting to circulate abroad, such that in the tale Gil-galad sends an urgent letter to Tar-Minastir begging him to abandon Númenórean isolationism and build permanent settlements along the Gwathló, to bolster defences of Calenardhon, where he fears evil will one day come. There is really a pretty seamless story, of sorts, to be told out of this. As Gil-galad writes in his letter delivered to Tar-Meneldur through his son Aldarion:   "A new shadow rises in the East. It is no tyranny of evil Men, ..., but a servant of Morgoth is stirring and evil things wake again. Each year it gains in strength, for most Men are ripe for its purpose. ... And now I make a bold to seek your help. If you have any strength of Men to spare, lend it to me, I beg." — Unfinished Tales: Aldarion and Erendis: The Mariner's Wife   As I noted earlier, Aldarion and Erendis is actually intensely linked to the later Númenórean intervention in the Eregion war under Tar-Minastir, courtesy of their settlement of Lond Daer (on the Gwathlo, or 'Vinyalonde') from which they successfully repel Sauron's forces in SA 1700. Practically no or very little major 'tampering' with Tolkien's world-building involved in this. No greatest hits album. Later on, either in a much later season or spin-off, they could jump ahead in time to the civil war under Tar-Palantir and the Fall of Númenor proper, via time-skip rather than time-compression. The Elvish characters, Sauron, the corrupted Nazgul and the descendants of the original Númenórean cast would all still be there - so a great deal of continuity retained.  And this all fits together nicely because we are told in the 1701 S.A. entry in the Tale of Years that: "The Westlands have peace for a long while" following the conclusion of the Eregion war and the victory of the Allies, yet the shadow begins to slowly take over Númenor in these years of 'peace' as it becomes an oppressive, imperial superpower obsessed with mortality.