LOTR prequel TV series 2.0

[Werthead]

20 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

What about Peter Mullan? And we got Cynthia Addai-Robinson of Spartacus fame.

Sir Lenny is a much bigger name than those (from a UK perspective anyway).

Max Baldry also has a bit of a following, particularly from being most excellent as a very shitty kid Caesarion in Rome.

[Valandil]

I wonder who Lenny's playing. For me he has a very comic presence, but also gravitas, deep voice. A fabricated character? Eonwë teaching the future numenoreans? Never saw him in any serious roles, although I understand he has done them. Peter Mullan for an embittered and frothing at the mouth Ar-Pharazôn? Prob not in season one though. Grizzled old hero of the Edain in the war of wrath undertaking the trip to Elenna? Possibly Ossè, raging like the storm, he has a lot of aggressive energy?

[Valandil]

I'm obviously assuming the'll be showing the aftermath of (or possibly even the actual) War Of Wrath to show how/why the Numenoreans got Numenor, longer lifespans etc. Otherwise it would be confusing to people who this class of human is, difference between Men, Numenoreans and Elves, and why that leads to the Numenorean fall etc

[Isis]

It's been so long since I've watched him in anything that I don't even think I realised that Lenny Henry was now Sir Lenworth Henry. My immediate thought was Tickle Me Ulmo. But actually Osse is a good bet too.

[Corvinus85]

36 minutes ago, Valandil said:

I'm obviously assuming the'll be showing the aftermath of (or possibly even the actual) War Of Wrath to show how/why the Numenoreans got Numenor, longer lifespans etc. Otherwise it would be confusing to people who this class of human is, difference between Men, Numenoreans and Elves, and why that leads to the Numenorean fall etc

This could be done through some exposition at the beginning, like the LOTR movies + some lines of dialogue along the way in season 1.

[Werthead]

It looks like we have a synopsis.

Quote

Amazon Studios’ forthcoming series brings to screens for the very first time the heroic legends of the fabled Second Age of Middle-earth’s history. This epic drama is set thousands of years before the events of J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, and will take viewers back to an era in which great powers were forged, kingdoms rose to glory and fell to ruin, unlikely heroes were tested, hope hung by the finest of threads, and the greatest villain that ever flowed from Tolkien’s pen threatened to cover all the world in darkness. Beginning in a time of relative peace, the series follows an ensemble cast of characters, both familiar and new, as they confront the long-feared re-emergence of evil to Middle-earth. From the darkest depths of the Misty Mountains, to the majestic forests of the elf-capital of Lindon, to the breathtaking island kingdom of Númenor, to the furthest reaches of the map, these kingdoms and characters will carve out legacies that live on long after they are gone.

I mean, we knew most of this, but good to have it confirmed.

[Corvinus85]

So multiple POV characters, including Dúnadan, Elf, and Dwarf. Cool.

[Slurktan]

11 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

So multiple POV characters, including Dúnadan, Elf, and Dwarf. Cool.

Not necessarily Dwarf, I think the darkest depths of the Misty Mountains might be more referring to bad guys.  They could just change it slightly so that Mordor isn't a thing yet and so Sauron is based in the MM currently.  I don't see them doing anything with Khazad -Dum other than Narvi because it really doesn't do anything or add anything to the story.  (I was going to say in the SA as a whole but really nothing happens to and in Moria period until the Balrog.) It would also take a significant amount of the effects budget to do it properly.

[Corvinus85]

7 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Not necessarily Dwarf, I think the darkest depths of the Misty Mountains might be more referring to bad guys.  They could just change it slightly so that Mordor isn't a thing yet and so Sauron is based in the MM currently.  I don't see them doing anything with Khazad -Dum other than Narvi because it really doesn't do anything or add anything to the story.  (I was going to say in the SA as a whole but really nothing happens to and in Moria period until the Balrog.) It would also take a significant amount of the effects budget to do it properly.

Don't the dwarves of Khazad-dum attempt to help the elves of Eregion when Sauron starts the war? I would not be surprised if another Elf-Dwarf relationship is written for the show. They could show how the western door in Moria is built.

[Slurktan]

1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

Don't the dwarves of Khazad-dum attempt to help the elves of Eregion when Sauron starts the war? I would not be surprised if another Elf-Dwarf relationship is written for the show. They could show how the western door in Moria is built.

They could show the door being made but why would they?  It's irrelevant to anything other than LOTR.  Fanservice I guess.  But yes Khazad Dum attacks Sauron from the rear (after his army conquers Eregion) gets beat, retreats, and closes the doors.  That's explicitly it until 1980 of the TA unless you count it being implied they helped the Last Alliance.  But yes I would think they would explore Celebrimbor-Narvi but that's about it maybe you could even make it romantic as I'm pretty sure they are going to have Sauron tempt Celebrimbor like that already but that could also be doubling down which isn't needed.

[The Marquis de Leech]

My thoughts

Quote

TheOneRing.Net has got its paws on the official synopsis of the upcoming Amazon Tolkien TV series. It’s a development that brings to mind the line about Sauron deliberately releasing Gollum from the dungeons of Barad-dûr. Amazon knew exactly what they were doing here, in terms of drumming up publicity.

To my mind, this is mostly a fairly predictable Second Age synopsis – well, mostly predictable. We will get to that. For now, I am shaking my head at the amount of virtual ink that has been spilled over the “greatest villain” line. For example:

https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/lord-of-the-rings-series-synopsis-villain/

For goodness sake, people. It’s a series set in the Second Age. The Dark Years of Middle-earth, when Sauron was at the peak of his power, and when Morgoth was languishing in the Void. Of course it’s Sauron the line refers to, not Morgoth. “Greatest villain” does not necessarily mean “most powerful villain,” nor even “most consequential in-universe villain”. It can also refer to the “best” villain, or at least the one most commonly associated with Tolkien in popular imagination… Sauron. The Lord of the Ring. A villain who was also far cannier and shrewder – and intellectually more interesting – than his old master. Enough said, really.

No, the parts of the synopsis that leapt out at me were:

Unlikely heroes.

Hope hangs by the finest of threads.

The depths of the Misty Mountains.

Now, I fully understand the need on the part of the Amazon writers to fill in the gaps. The Second Age is not the most documented era in Tolkien – the Dark Years designation works on multiple levels. But these three elements are the odd-ones out of the wider synopsis. They actually sound much more Third Age (or even First Age) than Second.

“Unlikely heroes”? There are no hobbits in the Second Age. No audience surrogates. Rather one encounters the more classical hero, in the sense of a traditional epic. These characters are larger than life, not even an ordinary bloke like Beren, who stumbles into something much bigger. And they tend to be much more morally questionable over the course of their careers. We may cheer Isildur as he rescues the fruit of Nimloth… but we all know what he will do at Orodruin later on. We may cheer Celebrimbor’s warm cooperation with the dwarves… but we all know about the Rings of Power. And so on.

Indeed, rather than “hope hanging by a thread”, after the manner of the Third Age, the Second Age is characterised by an on-going theme of the Fall, both literal and figurative. The two major plot-strands of this time period, the Rings of Power and Númenor, are both studies in failure, of good becoming corrupted. This is partly through Sauron’s influence, but it is also through the innate desires lurking in the hearts of Elves and Men. Even a more domestic drama like Aldarion and Erendis is not about hope, but rather a study of two morally grey characters in conflict. And recall that whereas the Third Age gives us the unalloyed heroism of Gondor and Rohan holding out against Mordor and Isengard, the Second Age gives us Mordor versus Númenor – a Great Power rivalry of competing slave Empires. Not a lot of hope in that source material, and even the Last Alliance defeating Sauron ultimately proves deceptively hollow. The Second Age is the age of catastrophe, not of eucatastrope.

The final interesting element is the reference to the “darkest depths” of the Misty Mountains. Now, it’s not impossible that the writers might bring the Balrog’s destruction of Moria forward a few thousand years… but what other story elements could justify venturing into the depths of the Mountains? The relationship between Khazad-dûm and Eregion is the only one that springs to mind. But if this is a reference to that, referring to “darkest depths” feels unnecessarily foreboding. Khazad-dûm at its height was full of light, not darkness, and beyond the aforementioned friendship, the dwarves did not play a massive role in the events of the Second Age. In short, I feel that this reference might signal an invented story-line. Not that I am complaining, since it may be a very good story-line, but I think it worth speculating about.

**

That concludes my thoughts on the leaked synopsis. I do feel that the greatest villain thing is a bit of a red herring, since it can only be Sauron (not Morgoth), but at the risk of jumping the gun a bit, it looks like the series – rightly or wrongly – will be inserting some Third Age themes into a Second Age story.

 

[Ser Drewy]

The synopsis does sound very... LOTRsingy, to be honest. I still have no idea what to think of the show. The second age was expected, and it is a potentially interesting setting, but how good it'll be remains unanswerable until we start getting some footage and some sense of how it's being done. "Unlikely heroes" really beats me. I guess they might introduce some hobbits, or it could be the Druedain, or they'll re-characterise some of the Elves and Men. 

[Slurktan]

1 hour ago, Ser Drewy said:

The synopsis does sound very... LOTRsingy, to be honest. I still have no idea what to think of the show. The second age was expected, and it is a potentially interesting setting, but how good it'll be remains unanswerable until we start getting some footage and some sense of how it's being done. "Unlikely heroes" really beats me. I guess they might introduce some hobbits, or it could be the Druedain, or they'll re-characterise some of the Elves and Men. 

Or it could be a  "Wild Man" or group thereof that is the unlikely hero/es.  Not Dunedain or Elf but looked down upon by both.  Could paint the bad guys as bad (Sauron) but also the "good" guys as bad.

I'm also again thinking to rule out the dwarves, not just because they do nothing but as a cost issue.  If you bring in Dwarves then you need a lot more CGI/sized extras and film thing multiple times for forced perspectives. And Khazad-Dum would be far more CGI intensive than anything else.  Or you can just cut them out other than one or two and not do any of that, not miss much story wise, and keep costs down, 

EDIT:  I wonder if they may do something at some point where a Wild Man king is so put down and defeated by Elves and Numenoreans that you could then see why Sauron can get to them and maybe make a Nazgul.

[Vaughn]

1 hour ago, Slurktan said:

EDIT:  I wonder if they may do something at some point where a Wild Man king is so put down and defeated by Elves and Numenoreans that you could then see why Sauron can get to them and maybe make a Nazgul.

Whole subplot of Sauron just trying to help the locals fight off the elven and off-shore colonizers in Eregion.

[Werthead]

8 hours ago, Slurktan said:

I'm also again thinking to rule out the dwarves, not just because they do nothing but as a cost issue.  If you bring in Dwarves then you need a lot more CGI/sized extras and film thing multiple times for forced perspectives. And Khazad-Dum would be far more CGI intensive than anything else.  Or you can just cut them out other than one or two and not do any of that, not miss much story wise, and keep costs down, 

The show can afford it. In the first two seasons, which they're shooting back-to-back they've got a fair bit more money than the budget of the LotR movie trilogy ($300 million compared to $270 million) to film not that much more material (16 hours to 11, well even more counting the stuff they cut which has never seen the light of day, which was reportedly quite a lot), and of course a lot of those CG costs and techniques have come down in the interim.

They probably won't bring in Hobbits or the wizards early, but it makes sense to have as many touchstones from the movie trilogy as possible, so I think a Man-Elf-Dwarf quasi-fellowship-but-not approach is reasonably likely.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I really hope they ditch hobbits altogether. Wizards? Perhaps. The Istari are Third Age, of course, but there is copious space for Sorcery (c.f. the pre-corruption Ringwraiths).*

*Actually, that's a fun idea. Have one of our protagonists become one of the Nine over multiple seasons.

[Lord Varys]

To make a broad story stretching over decades and centuries - as the story would if they stick to it - they would have to focus on long-lived characters, namely Gil-galad, Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, Durin III (and Durin II), and whatever Númenóreans they would want to focus on. The later witch-king of Angmar could be a core character, as well as the two other Númenórean Nazgûl.

But at the core of the story should be Sauron in the Annatar disguise, and Celebrimbor as the tragic hero.

As for the scope of the story - it should start at Lindon with Annatar not being popular there. With Celebrimbor being drawn to Galadriel (they should go with him being in love with her), with the founding of Eregion, the Rings of Power, the One Ring, and then culminate in the war and in Sauron's apparent retreat.

They would have to move events around, having Sauron disperse stolen Rings to dwarves and men long before Celebrimbor is aware of the Ruling Ring, but that would be details.

A parallel plot could arrogance and laziness in Númenor as well as showing how Sauron starts to dominate and enslave other peoples when he isn't wearing his Annatar disguise.

If they wanted to also show the fall of Númenor they would have to make a new show out of that plot - or jump ahead in time after Sauron is defeated by elves and Númenóreans in the aftermath of the destruction of Eregion.

[The Marquis de Leech]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

To make a broad story stretching over decades and centuries - as the story would if they stick to it - they would have to focus on long-lived characters, namely Gil-galad, Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, Durin III (and Durin II), and whatever Númenóreans they would want to focus on. The later witch-king of Angmar could be a core character, as well as the two other Númenórean Nazgûl.

But at the core of the story should be Sauron in the Annatar disguise, and Celebrimbor as the tragic hero.

As for the scope of the story - it should start at Lindon with Annatar not being popular there. With Celebrimbor being drawn to Galadriel (they should go with him being in love with her), with the founding of Eregion, the Rings of Power, the One Ring, and then culminate in the war and in Sauron's apparent retreat.

They would have to move events around, having Sauron disperse stolen Rings to dwarves and men long before Celebrimbor is aware of the Ruling Ring, but that would be details.

A parallel plot could arrogance and laziness in Númenor as well as showing how Sauron starts to dominate and enslave other peoples when he isn't wearing his Annatar disguise.

If they wanted to also show the fall of Númenor they would have to make a new show out of that plot - or jump ahead in time after Sauron is defeated by elves and Númenóreans in the aftermath of the destruction of Eregion.

Simple. Compress the timeline. 

The Downfall - which would be the most expensive and visually spectacular thing in the history of fantasy television - would almost certainly be a cornerstone of the later seasons.

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Simple. Compress the timeline. 

The Downfall - which would be the most expensive and visually spectacular thing in the history of fantasy television - would almost certainly be a cornerstone of the later seasons.

I'd not like that at all - it would mean there is little to show what Númenor was and what it became. Not to mention that technically this would mean that Pharazôn was a hero before he became a villain ... and that's just wrong.

I mean, I realize that they could just simplify things rather easily if Sauron were to be captured and shipped back to Númenor after the destruction of Eregion, but that would then no longer Tolkien for me.

I do have a rather specific view on those things with that particular author.

And if you think about it. If they bothered with the fall of Númenor at all, then they should also finish the story - meaning to add the Last Alliance and the final destruction of Sauron at the end of the Second Age. The fall of Númenor as such isn't an ending. Especially if Elendil and his sons show up - which they would have to in an accurate adaptation of those events.

In that sense, if they do the entire Second Age - or at least starting with some point around the foundation of Eregion/the machinations of Annatar - then they should have the courage to do massive time jumps between seasons. With those long-lived/immortal characters around this definitely could work.

It would also be possible, for instance, to show how long it took Sauron to make the One Ring. That was nearly a century, if I remember correctly. One could easily compress that to one episode with him going up the mountain and have his followers behave like the Israelites while Moses was up his mountains. At the beginning they believe their god is going to return in splendor, but as the years and decades pass they start to lose faith and turn to other idols.

With Númenor, one could make them a lazy and saomewhat complacent but well-meaning good empire at the time of the Eregion war - people who have been shaken up and motivated by envoys from Middle-earth (both elves and men) ... to revisit it later as an evil colonial oppressor. This contrast could work very well if done right, since the audience would then be informed slowly what transpired in the centuries in-between. It would also create suspense because it wouldn't be clear if the Númenóreans are/can be still heroes.

There would also be potential to already establish the Númenóreans being jealous of the elves and their immortality back when they help them defeat Sauron the first time. You can slowly point at the rot in their society while they are still, for the most part, noble and good. And now that I think of it - it could be great to have the three Númenórean Nazgûl as the guys who lead the military expedition that defeats Sauron in Eriador.

[Corvinus85]

hmm... this doesn't bode well.

https://screenrant.com/lord-rings-show-amazon-tom-budge-cast-update/

Australian actor Tom Budge has left the show, and according to what he told his fans. Amazon reviewed whatever episodes they shot so far, and decided to go in a different direction with his character. This makes me think of the failed GoT pilot. Though maybe they're scrapping/changing only one certain storyline, and focusing on other characters more.