LOTR prequel TV series 2.0

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Is anyone else perplexed by how quickly the Kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor were founded and became strong.  It was approximately 100 years from their founding to the Last Alliance.

[Corvinus85]

8 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Is anyone else perplexed by how quickly the Kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor were founded and became strong.  It was approximately 100 years from their founding to the Last Alliance.

No. If anything, the one aspect I don't like about Tolkien's historical part of his writings is how slowly everything progresses. Barely anything happens in the Second Age for entire centuries. The Third Age is not much better. 

As to Gondor and Arnor, there were already Numenorian settlements in those regions, so they didn't start from scratch.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

No. If anything, the one aspect I don't like about Tolkien's historical part of his writings is how slowly everything progresses. Barely anything happens in the Second Age for entire centuries. The Third Age is not much better. 

As to Gondor and Arnor, there were already Numenorian settlements in those regions, so they didn't start from scratch.

Right, but they built massive cities and fortresses at Minas Anor, Osgiliath, Minas Ithil, the Hornburg, Orthanc, Amon Sül, Fornost, Annuminas, and the towers on the Tower Hills.
 

It was seven ships that escaped the fall of Numenor... that’s a tiny population of people who live a really long time (for Humans) who built all of the enormous works in a mere century all while Sauron is on their borders harrassing those constructions...

It’s difficult to believe.

[Corvinus85]

15 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Right, but they built massive cities and fortresses at Minas Anor, Osgiliath, Minas Ithil, the Hornburg, Orthanc, Amon Sül, Fornost, Annuminas, and the towers on the Tower Hills.
 

It was seven ships that escaped the fall of Numenor... that’s a tiny population of people who live a really long time (for Humans) who built all of the enormous works in a mere century all while Sauron is on their borders harrassing those constructions...

It’s difficult to believe.

Does Tolkien say that all these cities and fortresses are completely built by the time of the Last Alliance? 

And even if so, it's not just that small number of Dunedain that did all the work. Those lands were populated both with Numenoreans and other Men.

You can ask the same question of the First Age Elven cities. Did Turgon build Gondolin by himself?

We are dangerously approaching GRRM levels of questioning Tolkien's world.  I mean, Arda doesn't make much sense, so...

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Does Tolkien say that all these cities and fortresses are completely built by the time of the Last Alliance? 

And even if so, it's not just that small number of Dunedain that did all the work. Those lands were populated both with Numenoreans and other Men.

You can ask the same question of the First Age Elven cities. Did Turgon build Gondolin by himself?

We are dangerously approaching GRRM levels of questioning Tolkien's world.  I mean, Arda doesn't make much sense, so...

Gondolin took a while to build as I recall.  Turgon found Tumladen in year 53, Turgon after 11 years of preparation moved all his people from Nevrast to Gondolin, and even then it wasn’t finished until 116.  That was one city.  This is bunches of cities and fortresses.

[Werthead]

16 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

hmm... this doesn't bode well.

https://screenrant.com/lord-rings-show-amazon-tom-budge-cast-update/

Australian actor Tom Budge has left the show, and according to what he told his fans. Amazon reviewed whatever episodes they shot so far, and decided to go in a different direction with his character. This makes me think of the failed GoT pilot. Though maybe they're scrapping/changing only one certain storyline, and focusing on other characters more.

I'm reminded of Stuart Townsend being removed from the LotR trilogy and recast with Viggo Mortensen after shooting had begun.

That didn't bode well but kind of worked out.

[Lord Varys]

On 3/18/2021 at 3:32 PM, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Right, but they built massive cities and fortresses at Minas Anor, Osgiliath, Minas Ithil, the Hornburg, Orthanc, Amon Sül, Fornost, Annuminas, and the towers on the Tower Hills.
 

It was seven ships that escaped the fall of Numenor... that’s a tiny population of people who live a really long time (for Humans) who built all of the enormous works in a mere century all while Sauron is on their borders harrassing those constructions...

It’s difficult to believe.

Sauron first had to remake his body ... while that happened he could do nothing. And it is very clear that without the Dark Lord physically around his minions are afraid and/or passive. Not to mention that it is also said that Gil-galad's power had increased during his absence, meaning that the men living in what would become Gondor and Arnor likely weren't Sauron's followers anymore.

The mere fact that Minas Ithil could be built where it was was shows that the threat level at that time was pretty minimal.

But, of course, we have to assume that there were many Númenórean settlers already living in Pelargir and surrounding lands (although not so (m)any in what would become Arnor), so that they had the infrastructure and knowledge to build the two fortresses and, especially, Osgiliath. But Elendil in the north had the help of the Eldar and Gil-galad close by, so they could have helped with some of the structures there. Why anyone bothered building Orthanc is kind of strange, but one imagines that was part of the project to tie the two kingdoms together and establish the palantíri network - while the big stones could contact each other directly, for a guy managing one of the smaller stones it would be very helpful if he could first contact Orthanc, and the keeper there would then inform folks in Gondor or Arnor.

I'd expect that the Dúnedain had peace and tranquility for a couple of decades, say, 40-50 years. Then it became clear that Sauron wasn't truly gone and was preparing for another war, so they did the same.

But in any case - 100 years are definitely enough time to build the places they built. Especially since they could have passed on some of their knowledge to the men of Middle-earth. They would have been the people doing most of the work, anyway.

[Clueless Northman]

The Last Alliance was formed as soon as words that Sauron had physically reappeared reached them, and since they were sitting at his doorstep in Minas Ithil, they didn't have to wait for long before being aware of it - orc movements and fires at Mount Doom were quite obvious signs. So for most of the time between Elendil's landing and the war itself, the Numenorean refugees had near total freedom and hadn't any kind of opposition. Besides, it seems quite clear that most of the shores between Lindon and Umbar were settled by Numenoreans - and probably had given form to a mixed people. These people would most probably form the bulk of the Numenorean kingdoms workforce, inhabitants and soldiers.

[Slurktan]

On 3/18/2021 at 10:32 AM, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Right, but they built massive cities and fortresses at Minas Anor, Osgiliath, Minas Ithil, the Hornburg, Orthanc, Amon Sül, Fornost, Annuminas, and the towers on the Tower Hills.
 

It was seven ships that escaped the fall of Numenor... that’s a tiny population of people who live a really long time (for Humans) who built all of the enormous works in a mere century all while Sauron is on their borders harrassing those constructions...

It’s difficult to believe.

It is difficult to believe if you think they built massive cities anywhere other than osgiliath and that's because they didn't. Note what is isengard is,  a tower with a wall surrounding it. Minas anor didn't become a big city for another 1000 years. Regardless orthanc and aglarond and tharbad were likely built originally much earlier to protect their Eriador interests from Sauron.

The real question is why besides symmetry Gondor made Osgiliath capital at the start and didn't just stay in Pelargir. That had been the major port of the faithful ever since the original darkening of Numenor.

[Werthead]

7 hours ago, Slurktan said:

It is difficult to believe if you think they built massive cities anywhere other than osgiliath and that's because they didn't. Note what is isengard is,  a tower with a wall surrounding it. Minas anor didn't become a big city for another 1000 years. Regardless orthanc and aglarond and tharbad were likely built originally much earlier to protect their Eriador interests from Sauron.

The real question is why besides symmetry Gondor made Osgiliath capital at the start and didn't just stay in Pelargir. That had been the major port of the faithful ever since the original darkening of Numenor.

I think Tolkien mentions this. Osgiliath is much more fortified and defensible than Pelargir, spanning both sides of the Anduin plus a large island in the middle, allowing them to retreat by degrees should the city be attacked (with Minas Ithil of course guarding the passes into Mordor). If you make your capital at Pelargir and Pelargir falls, you don't have another viable line of defence until some distance to the west (maybe even Dol Amroth).

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Slurktan said:

It is difficult to believe if you think they built massive cities anywhere other than osgiliath and that's because they didn't. Note what is isengard is,  a tower with a wall surrounding it. Minas anor didn't become a big city for another 1000 years. Regardless orthanc and aglarond and tharbad were likely built originally much earlier to protect their Eriador interests from Sauron.

The real question is why besides symmetry Gondor made Osgiliath capital at the start and didn't just stay in Pelargir. That had been the major port of the faithful ever since the original darkening of Numenor.

Both Minas Ithil and Minas Anor do have those Orthanc-like super stone that was created by the Númenóreans, so that has to have been made back before the Last Alliance. Minas Anor's interior design may have been done in the TA, but not the outer wall.

And Isengard would have been some kind of fortress even before the Númenóreans came ... but they did build or shape Orthanc.

Tharbad may have been there because they used that harbor to ship back timber from Middle-earth.

As for a capital for the new kingdoms - they came to stay and they may have expected that Sauron was destroyed once and for all along with Númenor. It was rather, well, mean of the Valar and Eru Ilúvatar to allow him to return to Middle-earth and continue to torture the peoples there. Ar-Pharazôn and his followers - and all the Númenóreans back on the island (who most likely not were all fervent followers of Sauron, especially not the important slaves) - were killed, but Sauron basically got a free pass. I'd have hoped that the gods had done away with this guy rather than expected he would return.

[Corvinus85]

I'd say in Osgiliath's case, they may have wanted a more strategic location, which allowed for good military and economic influence. Osgiliath being on the Anduin allows for control of the river and good connections with other lands. Minas Ithil and Mian Anor were built as guardian fortresses to protect both flanks. And maybe the destruction of Numenor made the survivors more comfortable settling more inland.

[Slurktan]

20 hours ago, Werthead said:

I think Tolkien mentions this. Osgiliath is much more fortified and defensible than Pelargir, spanning both sides of the Anduin plus a large island in the middle, allowing them to retreat by degrees should the city be attacked (with Minas Ithil of course guarding the passes into Mordor). If you make your capital at Pelargir and Pelargir falls, you don't have another viable line of defence until some distance to the west (maybe even Dol Amroth).

That's true.  Also I always forget but the maps of ME that are in the books are not accurate for the SA prior to the Downfall as well and Pelargir was far more inland before the flooding so could just be that it just wasn't a good option at that point as well due to the immense flooding.

[Ran]

The Hollywood Reporter seems to have confirmed reports out of New Zealand that Amazon intends to spend $465 Million (USD)  on the LotR series' first season.

It is an utterly unimaginable sum. 

[Lord Varys]

For Jeff Bezos that's not exactly a lot of money. That would be, perhaps anything above ten billion or so.

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

The Hollywood Reporter seems to have confirmed reports out of New Zealand that Amazon intends to spend $465 Million (USD)  on the LotR series' first season.

It is an utterly unimaginable sum. 

I believe it's also erroneous. The first two seasons are being filmed back-to-back, or with a short break between them, and I can see a government minister easily conflating them into one season.

Split in half, the costs are high but not unimaginable: $29 million per episode, compared to The Pacific's $20 million or the current Disney+ Marvel shows' $25 million per episode. It's still almost twice what HBO spent on GoT Season 8 though.

Not split in half, the figure is almost baffling: $58 million per hour. Adjusted for inflation, the films are about $45 million per hour. WTF would cost them that much money?

[Loge]

10 hours ago, Werthead said:

I believe it's also erroneous. The first two seasons are being filmed back-to-back, or with a short break between them, and I can see a government minister easily conflating them into one season.

Split in half, the costs are high but not unimaginable: $29 million per episode, compared to The Pacific's $20 million or the current Disney+ Marvel shows' $25 million per episode. It's still almost twice what HBO spent on GoT Season 8 though.

Not split in half, the figure is almost baffling: $58 million per hour. Adjusted for inflation, the films are about $45 million per hour. WTF would cost them that much money?

Maybe the sum includes the cost of the rights? Or maybe they spent a lot on sets.

[Werthead]

3 hours ago, Loge said:

Maybe the sum includes the cost of the rights? Or maybe they spent a lot on sets.

No. The rights cost wouldn't be counted in a New Zealand government rebate.

[Werthead]

I think we did this a while back, but now how I'm seeing the story breakdown, given we apparently have 5x 8-episode seasons to work with:

• Season 1: Celebrimbor and Eregion, Annatar, the forging of the Rings of Power. Presumably a story with the new characters getting involved in these events. The One Ring being forged is the Season 1 cliffhanger.
• Season 2: The War of Sauron and Elves, battles across Eregion and Lindon, Numenorean intervention, Sauron's defeat at the Battle of Gwathlo.
• Season 3: Timeskip. New human characters. Numenorean colonisation and growing power. Ar-Pharazon's rise to power, possibly with Elendil as a viewpoint character. Season ends with the capture of Sauron.
• Season 4: Sauron's corruption of the Numenoreans. Rebellion of the Faithful. Assault on Valinor. The Downfall. The season ends with the establishing of Arnor and Gondor. Maybe Minas Anor/Tirith being under construction is the final image of the season.
• Season 5: War of the Last Alliance. Isildur as a major protagonist.

I think they'll completely obscure the century-long span of Seasons 1-2 and several centuries of Seasons 3-5 into a timespan allowing the same human characters to take part across multiple seasons. Though they can't escape the massive time jump in the middle (in the books, the events span 1,700 years).

[Fez]

Not sure if it'll have any bearing on the TV show, but Amazon announced today that it cancelled its planned LOTR MMORPG following a contract dispute with Tencent (who had bought the game studio that was making the game): https://www.ign.com/articles/amazon-cancels-its-the-lord-of-the-rings-mmorpg

Apparently the MMORPG was also going to be a prequel, but I don't know if Amazon ever announced if there was supposed to be any shared fiction or continuity between the game and the show. Or if it was going to be something entirely different. If there was going to be any sort of Quantum Break-level connectedness I assume that would've leaked though.