The Marquis de Leech Posted March 8, 2019 Author Share Posted March 8, 2019 Someone on another forum pointed out something interesting: Tol Fuin only appears on a map contained in The History of Middle-earth series (specifically Volume VII). Tol Morwen doesn't appear on a map at all - people depict it by superimposing the Silmarillion's map of Beleriand. Have Amazon got the rights to Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth or something...? They surely can't have the rights to the History of Middle-earth and The Silmarillion too. That would be insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted March 8, 2019 Author Share Posted March 8, 2019 OK. Turns out Tol Fuin does get mentioned in the introduction to Unfinished Tales (p.19. of my edition). As depicted though, it is only in The History of Middle-earth VII: The Treason of Isengard (p.302.). Tol Morwen, however, is only referenced in the published Silmarillion and The History of Middle-earth XI: The War of the Jewels (The Wanderings of Húrin). That’s the real problematic one. How do you reference it without the rights to either The Silmarillion or The History of Middle-earth? Dear god. Have Amazon bought The Silmarillion rights too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loge Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 24 minutes ago, The Marquis de Leech said: OK. Turns out Tol Fuin does get mentioned in the introduction to Unfinished Tales (p.19. of my edition). As depicted though, it is only in The History of Middle-earth VII: The Treason of Isengard (p.302.). Tol Morwen, however, is only referenced in the published Silmarillion and The History of Middle-earth XI: The War of the Jewels (The Wanderings of Húrin). That’s the real problematic one. How do you reference it without the rights to either The Silmarillion or The History of Middle-earth? Dear god. Have Amazon bought The Silmarillion rights too? Those 200 millions must have bought them something. What reports I have seen were rather vague about the extent of the rights they bought. One thing is certain, though. They now have Tolkien estate on board. The movies couldn't use anything not mentioned in LotR and the Hobbit because Tolkien estate opposed the project. With Christopher Tolkien out and the new leadership favouring adaptions it's just a matter of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 9 hours ago, Werthead said: Yes. It'd be bloody stupid of them to say that and then turn around and say, "Oh, we meant just the map, not the TV show." That'd be odd. Yeah, I thought the same. Now, where do I sign to get Cate Blanchett as Galadriel? *And no, I don't want to hear any more BS of someone else playing Galadriel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted March 8, 2019 Author Share Posted March 8, 2019 33 minutes ago, Loge said: Those 200 millions must have bought them something. What reports I have seen were rather vague about the extent of the rights they bought. One thing is certain, though. They now have Tolkien estate on board. The movies couldn't use anything not mentioned in LotR and the Hobbit because Tolkien estate opposed the project. With Christopher Tolkien out and the new leadership favouring adaptions it's just a matter of money. Oh, they've bought Unfinished Tales. That much is clear. I was visualising a deal between them and the Estate, whereby the Estate lets them have UT (and maybe the Akallabeth). If the adaptation is successful, they might then get a shot at The Quenta Silmarillion. If the Tol Morwen thing is significant though... this five season monster becomes a test run for an even bigger monster further down the line. I'm now visualising Christopher Tolkien wanting to strangle his own family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Uncle P Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 10 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said: Potentially. You can still tell the Downfall story without the Akallabeth - there's enough of an outline in UT and the LOTR appendices to work with, and creative writers can fill in the gaps. Hell, it's the one Tolkienian story where you really can go Game of Thrones-y, with the corruption, social decadence, and political backstabbing of the era. Failing that, potentially the Akallabeth rights could be split away from the rights to the Quenta Silmarillion? I'd be very, very surprised if they've got The Silmarillion too. There's even snippets of the Akallabeth in the LOTR appendices to give through broad overview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 Tol Morwen appears three times in the canon: The Silmarillion, The Shaping of Middle-earth (although that's just a reference to The Silmarillion passage) and The War of the Jewels. It - somehow! - doesn't appear in either Unfinished Tales or The Children of Hurin. Highly intriguing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted March 9, 2019 Author Share Posted March 9, 2019 I think there's three possible solutions: Amazon have the rights to HOME and The Silmarillion. - Unthinkable... surely? Amazon have bought Second Age material as a single entity. - I've seen this idea floated, and it would explain things, but I am not sure how viable it would be, given the grey areas (Tol Morwen is around in the Second Age, but it is only mentioned in First Age material. Could Amazon have Maglor as a character on the same basis? It'd be a legal minefield). In addition to Unfinished Tales (and maybe the Akallabeth), the Estate has given Amazon the same rights Fonstad had for geographical depiction in The Atlas of Middle-earth. I am leaning towards this option, but we'll see... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slurktan Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 1 hour ago, The Marquis de Leech said: I think there's three possible solutions: Amazon have the rights to HOME and The Silmarillion. - Unthinkable... surely? Amazon have bought Second Age material as a single entity. - I've seen this idea floated, and it would explain things, but I am not sure how viable it would be, given the grey areas (Tol Morwen is around in the Second Age, but it is only mentioned in First Age material. Could Amazon have Maglor as a character on the same basis? It'd be a legal minefield). In addition to Unfinished Tales (and maybe the Akallabeth), the Estate has given Amazon the same rights Fonstad had for geographical depiction in The Atlas of Middle-earth. I am leaning towards this option, but we'll see... Or they just bought the whole kit and kabootle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Drewy Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 Second Age is exciting, now it's only a matter of them not messing it up in the execution. But it'll be interesting to see the reception to what they might show - especially Numenor - with mainstream audiences now getting a taste of how grim Tolkien's world can be, especially after the sugarcoated way Jackson chose to end his take on Rings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 5 hours ago, Slurktan said: Or they just bought the whole kit and kabootle Maybe it's a "rental" of rights eg they have the whole lot for a limited time. If they fuck it up the rights revert back - if it's successful they can extend the deal (for less money)? There's no way they can make use of "everything" so it's safe to let them have it if all if it's a limited time deal. 9 minutes ago, Ser Drewy said: Second Age is exciting, now it's only a matter of them not messing it up in the execution. But it'll be interesting to see the reception to what they might show - especially Numenor - with mainstream audiences now getting a taste of how grim Tolkien's world can be, especially after the sugarcoated way Jackson chose to end his take on Rings. I suspect there'll be a lot of outrage regarding the ruin of childhood memories (based exclusively on the films and occasionally on having only read the Hobbit/LOTR) Then there'll be the GOT crowd claiming that LOTR and Hobbit is shit because it isn't all grim, dark and violent. Rest assured it will be polarising because everything is now even if it's a few thousand extremes on either side shouting across the millions happily existing within the bell-shaped distribution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Drewy Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 I suppose it comes down to whether or not they'll try to tie them into the Jackson adaptations or if they'll go ahead with their own take and eventually work towards a remake of LOTR itself. The latter would be my preference. There's going to be a number of differences between the two. Incidentally, if The Silmarillion might be on the table in the coming decade, should we all begin on our screenplays? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 38 minutes ago, Ser Drewy said: I suppose it comes down to whether or not they'll try to tie them into the Jackson adaptations or if they'll go ahead with their own take and eventually work towards a remake of LOTR itself. The latter would be my preference. There's going to be a number of differences between the two. Incidentally, if The Silmarillion might be on the table in the coming decade, should we all begin on our screenplays? If the showrunners for the LOTR show are anything to go by I'd concentrate on getting ANY TV experience while playing with your Silmarillion script in the background Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhaenysBee Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 I just read about the series’ being set in the second age. That’s not something I’m going to get prime for or even illegally download. But good luck to amazon making it a profitable project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Uncle P Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said: I just read about the series’ being set in the second age. That’s not something I’m going to get prime for or even illegally download. But good luck to amazon making it a profitable project. Have you read Akkalabeth about the Fall of Numenor? Or Tolkien's Unfinished Tales There's plenty material there for a cracking mature fantasy anthology (in the right hands) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhaenysBee Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 25 minutes ago, Ser Uncle P said: Have you read Akkalabeth about the Fall of Numenor? Or Tolkien's Unfinished Tales There's plenty material there for a cracking mature fantasy anthology (in the right hands) I have not. I don’t actually care about Tolkien’s work, I was a fan of the Lord of the Rings movies and if this show has no direct link to them, I don’t care about it. (Apart from the business perspective, I am truly curious about how this endeavor is going to sell and I’d give a lot to know whatever the hell was in the pitch that made amazon throw money into this, because frankly I don’t see its perspective) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 32 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said: I have not. I don’t actually care about Tolkien’s work, I was a fan of the Lord of the Rings movies and if this show has no direct link to them, I don’t care about it. The "direct link", given that Elves live thousands of years, are probably going to be Celebrimbor (glimpsed forging the rings in LotR), Gil-Galad (glimpsed in the prologue of the Fellowship), Elrond (needs no explanation), maybe Galadriel. And Sauron, of course. And Middle-earth itself, which is as much a character as anyone. Pretty obvious that a Second Age story will be about the forging of the rings and so on, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said: I have not. I don’t actually care about Tolkien’s work, I was a fan of the Lord of the Rings movies and if this show has no direct link to them, I don’t care about it. (Apart from the business perspective, I am truly curious about how this endeavor is going to sell and I’d give a lot to know whatever the hell was in the pitch that made amazon throw money into this, because frankly I don’t see its perspective) I think you are seriously underestimating the Tolkien fanbase. It’s a fantastic investment because the number of Tolkien fans is so huge. And we are now all but confirmed to be talking about the rights to stuff that have always been off limits before.* Someone was bound to snag them, and it makes sense to stricken while the iron isn’t hot On top of that you will have at least a decent proportion of the film fans who will see LOTR in the marketing’s and check it out. Then you have the GOT crowd who are going to be sold on this as the new GOT. There are a lot of factors working in this show’s favour to make it a winner as far Amazon is concerned. also you’re first paragraph kind of speaks volumes as to why you can’t see this as a smart buy for Amazon. *Christmas could be distinctly uncomfortable in the Tolkien family this year.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 By the bye, I am incredibly dubious of anyone tackling The Silmarillion. How many really good biblical epics are there in the modern era? No one would put The Ten Commandments on a greatest films list, and Noah was at best interesting. But that's basically the tone and style you need for a faithful reproduction of it on the screen, and I just don't think it's happening these days. The wide-open Second Age should be much less fraught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Uncle P Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 13 minutes ago, Ran said: By the bye, I am incredibly dubious of anyone tackling The Silmarillion. How many really good biblical epics are there in the modern era? No one would put The Ten Commandments on a greatest films list, and Noah was at best interesting. But that's basically the tone and style you need for a faithful reproduction of it on the screen, and I just don't think it's happening these days. The wide-open Second Age should be much less fraught. The earliest chapters of Silmarillion from the music of the Ainiur up as far as Feanor leading the exodus of the Noldor from Valinor are Biblical in scope, and would probably flop on screen like modern takes on Bible stories. But a character driven TV anthology could come out of the later chapters, especially Turin or the story of Gondolin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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