LOTR prequel TV series 2.0

[Werthead]

12 hours ago, DMC said:

This is, like, an excellent rehash that could be a great wikipedia entry on the public record.  But it does not address my question - do you think Amazon acquired the rights to the Akallabeth (however temporarily) or not?  I'm not trying to be a dick by pressing the issue, I'm honestly interested in your opinion on the matter.

 

Quote

 

I would guess, personally, that Christopher Tolkien's direct hand in the creation of The Silmarillion would mean that the Estate would, at least presently, respect his wishes on not licensing that text. Just a guess, though. Given that Amazon started the map tweets by quoting the ring poem, it does seem like this show is about Celebrimbor and the forging of the rings, which is more than a thousand years before the downfall of Númenor.

 

I think it depends on the nature of the story. If it's Celebrimbor and the forging of the Rings alone, they might just get away with having the Roll of Years from LotR and then the material from UT. If they're doing all of the Second Age up to the sinking of Numenor, they really the Akallabeth, there's not enough info in either of the other books to give them the required material.

[red snow]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Wouldn't this be based on a premise that they are worried about people finding a place to buy their books?  I don't think that's a realistic concern, nor do I think being on Amazon will drive viewership more than any other producer.

I guess Amazon has a major share in book sales worldwide so it could be a factor - especially if they do some exclusive editions.

That said a tv show will increase book sales everywhere. I suspect Amazon gets a merchandise licensing deal in general though

[felice]

11 hours ago, Ran said:

Given that Amazon started the map tweets by quoting the ring poem, it does seem like this show is about Celebrimbor and the forging of the rings, which is more than a thousand years before the downfall of Númenor.

The forging of the rings alone isn't really a story, though; surely it would have to at least cover the War of the Elves and Sauron? And that's a couple of hundred years. I think it's most likely to go right up to the end of the Second Age, if it doesn't get cancelled first; the elvish characters would provide continuity of cast even over a couple of thousand years.

[Ran]

3 hours ago, felice said:

The forging of the rings alone isn't really a story, though; surely it would have to at least cover the War of the Elves and Sauron?

Sure. Starting at the time Annatar begins to teach the elves the forging of the rings, and seeing the series end some 200-odd years later with Sauron's defeat, seems about right for a multiple-season show primarily concerned with long-lived elves and Númenoreans.

[Corvinus85]

I'm not sure how it will work with the time jumps. It's possible that, since for the most part they'll be able to keep the same cast, they may try to condense the timeline. The audience not familiar with the story won't know the difference, and if done, the rest of us may accept it, too.

[red snow]

8 hours ago, Corvinus said:

I'm not sure how it will work with the time jumps. It's possible that, since for the most part they'll be able to keep the same cast, they may try to condense the timeline. The audience not familiar with the story won't know the difference, and if done, the rest of us may accept it, too.

They could also have humans living a bit longer, something they can do in LOTR if they don't want to hang all the ongoing roles on elves, wizards and dark lords. That said, i think the mortality of humans could be quite powerful handled in a show like this eg the mightiest of humans still succumb to time. It's actually an important element as some dynasties alter based on the quality of the successors. If the humans live longer or the timeline is condensed those things could be lost.

[Ran]

52 minutes ago, red snow said:

They could also have humans living a bit longer

The Númenorean royal line regularly lived to 400 years or so, so the 200 years between the forging of the ring and the war is kind of like the equivalent of 40 years for us mere mortals in the Fifth(?) Age, and if I recall correctly they remained hale and hearty until quite close near the end; lesser Númenoreans lived over 200 years. 

Vikings has covered something like 25 years in its run, so it's getting there. Still a bit of a stretch, I suppose, but the easy answer is, yes, some skips -- there must have been quieter periods in that range of time, where you can leave off and jump 40 years. Here's Tolkien Gateway's timeline:

 

1,500	The Rings of Power are forged; Sauron departs Eregion.
1,556	Queen Tar-Telperiën takes the Sceptre.
1,574	Death of Tar-Súrion.
1,590	The Three Rings are forged.
1,600	The One Ring is forged; Barad-dûr completed; Sauron openly proclaims himself; Glorfindel, Rómestámo and Morinehtar come to Middle-earth.
1,634	Birth of Ciryatan.
1,693	The Three Rings are hidden; War of the Elves and Sauron begins.
1,695	Sauron invades Eriador.
1,697	Sack of Eregion; Death of Celebrimbor; Rivendell founded; Dwarves assail Sauron from behind; Khazad-dûm closes.
1,699	Sauron overruns Eriador.
1,700	Defeat of Sauron by the Númenóreans under King's Heir Minastir.

If, hypothetically, the first season ends with the Rings of Power being forged, you can easily jump ahead to Tar-Telperiën taking the sceptre and you can delve into the politics around her (she would be the first ruler to refuse to give up the sceptre before death, she refused to marry, she refused to get involved in Middle-earth) and skip around to the forging of the Three Rings and end with the One Ring and everyone realizing Annatar=Sauron. Two seasons, 100 years covered, easy. You can skip another good chunk of time to focus on the start of the war, and the last two seasons get relatively compressed to cover the 7-8 years of the War of the Elves and Sauron. 5 seasons, 200 years, and you can pretty much use most of the same actors if your focus are the Númenorean royals.

[Werthead]

42 minutes ago, Ran said:

The Númenorean royal line regularly lived to 400 years or so, so the 200 years between the forging of the ring and the war is kind of like the equivalent of 40 years for us mere mortals in the Fifth(?) Age, and if I recall correctly they remained hale and hearty until quite close near the end; lesser Númenoreans lived over 200 years. 

Vikings has covered something like 25 years in its run, so it's getting there. Still a bit of a stretch, I suppose, but the easy answer is, yes, some skips -- there must have been quieter periods in that range of time, where you can leave off and jump 40 years. Here's Tolkien Gateway's timeline:

Vikings has covered about 110 years. It opens with the raid on Lindisfarne in 793. By the end of Season 4 they've done the Great Heathen Army's invasion of East Anglia, Mercia and Wessex in 874. The upcoming Season 6 will deal with Oleg of Novgorod, which presumably takes the story into the opening of the 10th Century. During those 110 years, some characters appear to have only aged about 20 years max.

With a completely fictional timeline, they'll likely just completely obfuscate or ignore the dates, like the LotR movies did with the 17 years between Bilbo vanishing and the War of the Ring (which in the movies just doesn't happen), or the scene with Gandalf in Minas Tirith where it suggests that the Last Battle of the Last Alliance and Isildur seizing the Ring took place in 3434 SA instead of 3441 SA.

[Ran]

My understanding is that the internal timeline is 20-odd years in a setting where men age normally, condensing an external timeline of, as you say, more than 100 years.

Once people wrap their heads around Numenoreans living hundreds of years and elves being essentially immortal, it doesn't feel to me like they really need to compress the external timeline at all, though.

[HexMachina]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

My understanding is that the internal timeline is 20-odd years in a setting where men age normally, condensing an external timeline of, as you say, more than 100 years.

Once people wrap their heads around Numenoreans living hundreds of years and elves being essentially immortal, it doesn't feel to me like they really need to compress the external timeline at all, though.

Emphasis on men ageing normally. Lagertha simply got a new awful wig

[Ran]

1 minute ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Emphasis on men ageing normally. Lagertha simply got a new awful wig

I stopped watching a few seasons back, but I don't doubt this. 

[HexMachina]

7 minutes ago, Ran said:

I stopped watching a few seasons back, but I don't doubt this. 

Me too, but I’m a sucker for the hilarity and still follow the threads and watch the trailers

[Krishtotter]

Tolkien had a clear understanding of where the Second Age lay in his legendarium and the unique 'tone' it was to have.

Briefly, this was to include:

 

- Sauron's initial repentance after the War of Wrath, as well as his original pure motives and eventual lapse into tyranny.

- the concept of a "second fall or at least 'error' of the Elves" who desired to remain in Middle-earth and their great hubris in forging the Rings of Power.

- the nature of Rings of Power in terms of effects on the bearers (i.e. the origins of the Nazgul, three of whom were great Númenórean lords) - namely its ability to halt physical decay and augment natural powers of the wielder.

- Sauron's domination of much of Middle-earth in "a great Kingdom and evil theocracy".

- The rise and fall of the Númenóreans,their morbid "cult of the dead", and becoming in Middle-earth "cruel and wicked lords of necromancy, slaying and tormenting men".

 

In his sweeping Letter 131, which Tolkien wrote in 1951 to Milton Waldman of the publishing house, Collins, there are roughly eight pages devoted to an explication of the Second Age, whereby Tolkien teases out, systematically, the key themes and tenor of this period.

 

He explains thus:

 

"The three main themes (of the Second Age) are thus The Delaying Elves that lingered in Middle-earth; Sauron's growth to a new Dark Lord, master and god of Men; and Numenor-Atlantis. They are dealt with annalistically, and in two Tales or Accounts, The Rings of Power and the Downfall of Númenor. Both are the essential background to The Hobbit and its sequel...

There is Sauron. In the Silmarillion and Tales of the First Age Sauron was a being of Valinor perverted to the service of the Enemy and becoming his chief captain and servant. He repents in fear when the First Enemy is utterly defeated, but in the end does not do as was commanded, return to the judgement of the gods. He lingers in Middle-earth. Very slowly, beginning with fair motives: the reorganising and rehabilitation of the ruin of Middle-earth, 'neglected by the gods', he becomes a reincarnation of Evil, and a thing lusting for Complete Power – and so consumed ever more fiercely with hate (especially of gods and Elves).

Thus, as the Second Age draws on, we have a great Kingdom and evil theocracy (for Sauron is also the god of his slaves) growing up in Middle-earth. In the West lie the precarious refuges of the Elves, while Men in those parts remain more or less uncorrupted if ignorant...

Meanwhile Númenor has grown in wealth, wisdom, and glory, under its line of great kings of long life, directly descended from Elros, Earendil's son, brother of Elrond... In the first stage, being men of peace, their courage is devoted to sea-voyages....Mostly they come to the west-shores of Middle-earth, where they aid the Elves and Men against Sauron, and incur his undying hatred. In those days they would come amongst Wild Men as almost divine benefactors, bringing gifts and knowledge, and passing away again – leaving many legends behind of kings and gods out of the sunset.

In the second stage, the days of Pride and Glory and grudging of the Ban, they begin to seek wealth rather than bliss. The desire to escape death produced a cult of the dead, and they lavished wealth on tombs and memorials. They now made settlements on the west-shores, but these became rather strongholds and 'factories' of lords seeking wealth, and the Númenóreans became tax-gatherers carrying off over the sea evermore and more goods in their great ships. The Númenóreans began the forging of arms and engines...

A new religion, and worship of the Dark, with its temple under Sauron arises. The Faithful are persecuted and sacrificed. The Númenóreans carry their evil also to Middle-earth and there become cruel and wicked lords of necromancy, slaying and tormenting men; and the old legends are overlaid with dark tales of horror. This does not happen, however, in the North West; for thither, because of the Elves, only the Faithful who remain Elf-friends will come...

The Second Age ends with the Last Alliance (of Elves and Men), and the great siege of Mordor. It ends with the overthrow of Sauron and destruction of the second visible incarnation of evil"

 

IMHO, any TV rating needs to give the screenwriters and directors sufficient latitude to explore these themes in accordance with Tolkien's vision - Sauron's "evil theocracy"; the imperial greed of the Numenoreans as they try to evade mortality through a "cult of the dead"; a Satanic religion involving human sacrifices and an overall setting defined by "dark tales of horror" in which the Numenoreans become "cruel and wicked lords of necromancy, slaying and tormenting men".

 

As Tolkien wrote elsewhere about the "older legends" (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien p. 333):

 

Nearly all are grim and tragic: a long account of the disasters that destroyed the beauty of the Ancient World, from the darkening of Valinor to the Downfall of Númenor and the flight of Elendil. And there are no hobbits. Nor does Gandalf appear.

 

That's Tolkien's understanding of the Second Age. I hope the show will abide by it.

[fionwe1987]

On 3/15/2019 at 5:58 AM, Krishtotter said:

 

I have a feeling they will loop in the tale of Aldarion and Erendis in here. Maybe move it ahead a bit to create a more convenient timeline. It is the most detailed tale from Numenor. And it would work better around the forging of the Rings.

[Krishtotter]

47 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

I have a feeling they will loop in the tale of Aldarion and Erendis in here. Maybe move it ahead a bit to create a more convenient timeline. It is the most detailed tale from Numenor. And it would work better around the forging of the Rings.

I think your probably right about that.

Beginning with Calenardhon (which features in Aldarion and Erendis as the place Gil-galad warns Tar-Minastir in a missive he fears the enemy will strike through, thereby asking him to bolster its defences) and then Ras Morthil (mentioned only in Unfinished Tales in the context, again, of Aldarion's maritime voyages) and then some other easter eggs, the map updates bore unmistakable influence from this particular narrative.

And that's not surprising, since it is by far the fullest prose account we have from the Second Age, giving readers an insight into how Tolkien conceived of everyday life during it (from the perspective of the high-born, long-lived Numenoreans).

As is made clear from the detailed map of Numenor with it's topographical place-names - such as Andustar, Rommena, Armenelos etc. - Amazon have gone to the bother of acquiring the rights for Unfinished Tales. 

It would surely be remiss of them - in the extreme - to neglect lifting any characters, dialogue and/or themes from Tolkien's most detailed treatment of the period they are adapting.

There's an attention to human psychology here that, I think, stands out from the rest of Tolkien's ouevre, perhaps because it was such a late work.

As I wrote in Reddit, about one subplot of this story:

 

r/LOTR_on_PrimeDiscussion

 

 

Cocospud • 3d

I concur with a few others that the Second Age was depicted quite differently by Tolkien from the Third Age in LoTR and that Amazon should be bold enough to make the setting feel much darker than in the LoTR films.

Ancalimë, daughter of Aldarion, grows up with her man-hating mother Erendis - bitter at her husband abandoning her for sea-faring voyages abroad - and is so influenced by both her misandrist views and her own hurt at having an absentee father, that she has no interest in getting married. Erendis tells Ancalime that men believe "All things were made for their service: hills are for quarries, river to furnish water or to turn wheels, trees for boards, women for their body's need, or if fair to adorn their table and hearth" and counsels her to the effect that: "If we love Numenor also, let us enjoy it before they ruin it. We also are daughters of the great, and we have wills and courage of our own. Therefore do not bend, Ancalime. Once bend a little, and they [men] will bend you further until you are bowed down."

Ancalime is so sheltered by her mother that she never sees any boys, her first experience of the opposite sex is as a young girl while away from the capital in a farm:

One day in the summer of that year a young boy, but older than herself, came to the house on anerrand from one of the distant farms; and Ancalimë came upon him munching bread and drinking milk in the farm-courtyard at the rear of the house. He looked at her without deference, and went on drinking. Then he set down his mug."Stare, if you must, great eyes!" he said. "You're a pretty girl, but too thin. Will you eat?" He took aloaf out of his bag. ...

"What noisy thing was that?" said Ancalimë."A boy," said Zamîn, "if you know what that is. But how should you? They're breakers and eaters,mostly. That one is ever eating – but not to no purpose. A fine lad his father will find when he comes back;but if that is not soon, he'll scarce know him. I might say that of others."

As an adult woman, years later, desperate to flee from her flood of desperate suitors, as the heir to the throne (with great social pressure), she receives the kindly aid of an elderly woman and manages to go into hiding in a farm, feeling liberated in being able to temporarily experience life as a shepherdess, away from the claustrophobic sycophants back home at the court in Armenelos.

Here, Ancalimë falls in with a poor shepherd boy minding flocks in the same region, who calls himseld Mámandil. Ancalimë, unused to such company as his, takes delight in his singing; songs of the lovers of old.

But, he then makes a play for her: declaring his love openly, and she refuses his advances, because of the class differences: for she was the Heir of the King. But Mámandil then laughs and reveals that he is actually Hallacar, son of Hallatan of Hyarastorni, of the line of Elros Tar-Minyatur. The whole thing has been an elaborate attempt to make his pitch as a suitor.

"And how else could any wooer lad [bed] you?" he says, which is charming I must say as a pitch. In response, "We could," replies Ancalimë, "if I had any mind to such a state. I could lay down my royalty, and be free. But if I were to do so, I should be free to wed whom I will; and that would be Úner (which is 'Noman'), whom I prefer above all others."

But Ancalimë is forced to marry Hallacar, though she does not desire love, nor does she wish for a son; and she certainly doesn't want to be an attentive wife to him in his elder years (because, as a pureblood royal, she lives longer than other Númenórians, saying: "Must I become like Queen Almarian, and dote upon him?" A propitious start to their union. Consider what happens next and the cruel, crude joke that Hallacar plays upon her:

Her life with Hallacar was unhappy, and she begrudged him her son Anárion, and there was strife between them thereafter.

She sought to subject him, claiming to be the owner of his land, and forbidding him to dwell upon it, for she would not, as she said, have her husband a farmsteward. From this time comes the last tale that is recorded of those unhappy things. For Ancalimë would let none of her women wed, and although for fear of her most were restrained, they came from the country about and had lovers whom they wished to marry. But Hallacar in secret arranged for them to be wedded; and he declared that he would give a last feast at his own house, before he left it. To this feast he invited Ancalimë, saying that it was the house of his kindred, and should be given a farewell of courtesy.

Ancalimë came, attended by all her women, for she did not care to be waited on by men. She found the house all lit and arrayed as for a great feast, and men of the household attired in garlands as for their weddings, and each with another garland in his hands for a bride.

"Come!" said Hallacar. "The weddings are prepared, and the bride-chambers ready. But since it cannot be thought that we should ask the Lady Ancalimë, King's Heir, to lie with a farm-steward, then, alas! she must sleep alone tonight." And Ancalimë perforce remained there, for it was too far to ride back, nor would she go unattended. Neither men nor women hid their smiles; and Ancalimë would not come to the feast, but lay abed listening to the laughter far off and thinking it aimed at herself. Next day she rode off in a cold rage, and Hallacar sent three men to escort her. Thus he was revenged, for she came never back to Emerië, where the very sheep seemed to make scorn of her

 

We are dealing, after all, with a civilization peopled by enormously wealthy, beautiful and intelligent people who get to live for hundreds of years beyond the normal human span of life. Erendis in Unfinished Tales tells us the truth about what they were like even before the shadow fell upon them: "The long life that they were granted deceives them, and they dally in the world, children in mind, until age finds them – and then many only forsake play out of doors for play in their houses. They turn their play into great matters and great matters into play... Anger they show only when they become aware, suddenly, that there are other wills in the world beside their own. Then they will be as ruthless as the seawind if anything dare to withstand them."

That's the Númenórians and it's how Amazon should depict them.

[Ran]

I adore "Aldarion and Erendis". I'm not sure I'd be pleased with them futzing around with the timeline, though.

[Krishtotter]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

I adore "Aldarion and Erendis". I'm not sure I'd be pleased with them futzing around with the timeline, though.

I don't think they have to.

They can simply transfer characters, themes and dialogue to the time of the Eregion war. We know nothing about the wives of certain later monarchs, or indeed of Ciryatur, the admiral of the Numenorean navy that defeats Sauron in SA 1700.

The marital problems Aldarion and Erendis face would likely trouble other Numenorean couples, especially as the colonial phase begins and so many are away from home.

I think they will need to prune the 1,500 year gap between the Eregion war and Ar-Pharazon, though. Even though Numenorean royals live for around 400 years, that span of time encompasses around three Numenorean lifetimes - now, we want to see some of them aging and dying, but I don't think they'd want to go through too many generations without consistent characters.

[Ran]

Transfering characters would be "futzing around with the timeline". 

I also don't imagine their intention is to cover that much of Númenórean history in a single series. You can see the entire arc for a series contained in about 200 years outlined above. 

[Krishtotter]

16 minutes ago, Ran said:

Transfering characters would be "futzing around with the timeline". 

I also don't imagine their intention is to cover that much of Númenórean history in a single series. You can see the entire arc for a series contained in about 200 years outlined above. 

I've spoken to a few other diehard Tolkienistas and we all seemed, pretty much, to be rather chill with the idea of certain aspects of Aldarion and Erendis being transferrred to a couple in the Eregion period, without actually moving them personally.

But, I appreciate that everyone has done different degrees of faithfulness to the source envisioned.

You may well be right there, regarding the series spanning the forging of the rings up to the Numenorean intervention, but I have the suspicion that - in pursuance of Bezos's explicit intention for as epic a prequel as possible - they will want to get in as many seismic moments as possible, to rival the scale of both the original LoTR trilogy and GoT.

For that reason, it wouldn't surprise me if they attempt to trace the narrative arc through the forging of the rings, Eregion war, Numenorean expansionism and internal politics, Tar-Minastir's efforts to rehabilitate, Ar-Pharazon seizing the throne, the humbling of Sauron, his corruption of the nation, its war against the Valar, the fall of Numenor, the foundation of the realms in exile and concluding with the Last Alliance.

This may be segmented, with the five-season initial series dealing with the smaller arc you've hypothesized and then a spin-off going up to the Last Alliance, but it does enter my mind that the first map (revealed in 4 updates) was clearly a map of the very late Second Age just after the fall of Numenor but before the Last Alliance, with Gondor and Arnor colonies not long established and the trees in Minhiriath and Enedwaith all felled by Numenorean colonists.

The second map is evidently around the time of the Eregion war, with those trees still intact and Numenor standing in all its glory.

Could this be the broad contours of the timeline they hope to deal with?

[Krishtotter]

I do wonder, though, about the selected showrunners' bewildering lack (or as it may be absence) of credits. 

Apparently, they wrote the initial script for Stark Trek 4 (which I think has now been shelved) and wrote a screenplay called "Escape" that got placed in the 2017 annual Blacklist of the best unproduced scripts in Hollywood (from the suggestions of over 275 film executives). Has anyone been able to find anything else out about these guys?

Here's the plot summary for their Blacklisted screenplay:

http://www.tracking-board.com/the-black-list-2017
 

Quote

 

ESCAPE

by JD Payne & Patrick McKay 

Between 1788 and 1868, the British Empire shipped more than 150,000 convicts to penal colonies in Australia and the notoriously brutal Tazmania. No distinction was made between first time and repeat offenders. This is the story of one of those prisoners. A wrongly accused man who is taken from his home and sent across the world to serve a five-year prison term. He quickly realizes his only chance of seeing his family again is to escape the prison with a gang of cohorts and play the odds of surviving the deadly terrain that waits on the outside.

 

 

Why did Amazon choose them, when they have the pick of whomsoever they like with regards to Showrunners? People would literally die to work with Amazon's millions, so the choice is a little mistifying.

As bad as latter GoT became under D&D, Benioff at least had decent credits under his name in Hollywood, such as the Homeric epic Troy.

These guys are conpicuous by their absence of credits.

Could it be that their script proposal appeared so compelling to Amazon and the Tolkien Estate that they decided to take a gamble on them?

I doubt Amazon would take the commercial risk unless what they had managed to come up with was really good.

And then there's the slightly odd fact that Bryan Cogman, who wrote episodes for GoT screenplays and thus has experience being in the writers room of a high-budget TV fantasy drama, has been tapped by Amazon for some kind of obscure "overall" deal to produce new content. I would have thought that they'd appreciate some of his input for their biggest investment, the new LoTR prequel (he had, after all, been pursuing a GoT prequel idea before they nabbed him).

But, instead, two unknowns are helping this ambitious project in collaboration with both Amazon and the Tolkien Estate.

All I've been able to find about them other than the aforementioned script, is that one of them is Mormon while the other has a competing worldview which nevertheless always works well with his writing partner (apparently).

And this, from 2014, where JD Payne talked about working on Star Trek, and shared a little that could be an insight into his approach: 
 

Quote

“At its core, Star Trek has always been about adventure, exploration and wonder, with an optimistic sense of the future, and all its possibilities. It’s a massive playground; we’re so excited to be diving in on it,” Payne said. 

“Star Trek is unique in that it often grapples with complex ethical and moral dilemmas. We’d love to create a situation like that where you really could be a person of any background and come down on both sides of how you should respond, where you can walk out and say, ‘You know, I really don’t know what I would do. What would you do? What’s right to do?‘ and get the audience to really engage.”