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Ser Dips A lot

Jon Arryn or Tywin Lannister. Who would be the better King?

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So I’ve often speculated on alternate scenarios with the end of Robert’s Rebellion. In a situation where say Robert dies of his wounds at The Trident, what would have happened. Likely, the Targaryen line wouldn’t have been extinguished. The remaining rebel leaders, Jon Arryn and Ned Stark, would have most likely secured the throne for Viserys or Danaerys, ofcourse under their control and counsel. That’s the honorable thing to do with the Mad King and Rhaegar dead. Rhaegar’s siblings would have better claim then a bastard (Jon Snow). So, now with my hypothetical scenario, say that Viserys and Dany are out of the picture and Jon Arryn or Tywin Lannister have 1/8 Targ blood or some claim to the Iron Throne as Robert did, who would be the better King? And also add in the Jon Arryn is able to produce a better heir then Robin, perhaps a son from his previous marriage with his cousin Arryn or a healthy child with Lysa.  

And I know the rebel factions wouldn’t prefer Tywin as King, but if he had the targ blood Robert had, he has a claim.

Edited by Ser Dips A lot

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Depends or what you want.

Tywin is way more eficient, he get things done, but he has no moral limits, justice or honor, he is ruthless and pragmatic as possible.

Jon Arryn would be much more fair and just with his subjects, but he wouldn't be that effective, he wasn't very pragmatic as he oposed the murderer of Daenerys and Viserys during his time as hand. Jon Arryn and his problems of conceinving a heir could also set up a future mess.

Jon Arryn as king and Tywin as hand would be the best combination for me.

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1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Depends or what you want.

Tywin is way more eficient, he get things done, but he has no moral limits, justice or honor, he is ruthless and pragmatic as possible.

Jon Arryn would be much more fair and just with his subjects, but he wouldn't be that effective, he wasn't very pragmatic as he oposed the murderer of Daenerys and Viserys during his time as hand. Jon Arryn and his problems of conceinving a heir could also set up a future mess.

Jon Arryn as king and Tywin as hand would be the best combination for me.

I agree that it depends on what you want. 

 

I think that Tywin would most efficiently run the realm. I think Jon Arryn would the more equitable ruler. I am sure plenty of arguments could be made for either. However, I would be more inclined to choose the younger man with twenty years of experience running the entire realm & well at that.

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2 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

I'm going with Tywin - age and job experience win out.

Yep I also agree that Tywin would do a better job.

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Remember what Martin said.  Good intentions aren't enough.  He was referring to Robert, Ned, and Jon Arryn.  They trashed the kingdom despite good intentions.  They wanted justice and in the end brought on more suffering to the people than Aerys did.  Tywin can keep the feudal lords in line better than Jon.  Neither are good choices though.  I mean, seriously, Jamie as the heir?  That's a major disaster in the making.  I know, I know, Jamie has a lot of fans around here but if they can only open their eyes and see what they should, their golden lad is way worse than Robert B.  The trio of Jamie, Cersei, and Tyrion are the Achilles Heel of Tywin.  

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45 minutes ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Remember what Martin said.  Good intentions aren't enough.  He was referring to Robert, Ned, and Jon Arryn.  They trashed the kingdom despite good intentions.  They wanted justice and in the end brought on more suffering to the people than Aerys did.  Tywin can keep the feudal lords in line better than Jon.  Neither are good choices though.  I mean, seriously, Jamie as the heir?  That's a major disaster in the making.  I know, I know, Jamie has a lot of fans around here but if they can only open their eyes and see what they should, their golden lad is way worse than Robert B.  The trio of Jamie, Cersei, and Tyrion are the Achilles Heel of Tywin.  

Well said, I agree that the trio of Jaime, Cersei, and Tyrion would be the downfall to Tywin if he were king. 

You said Robert, Jon, and Ned “trashed” the Kingdom. I disagree. Jon and Ned had good intentions and wanted justice, Robert did not. When they won the war, The throne had to go to Robert, as he had the only claim; Tywin had Rhaegar’s family murdered, and the Viserys and Dany would have met the same fate likely had they not fled. 

Robert was the one who trashed the kingdom. Robert did not have good intentions, as you said above. He wanted revenge, not justice. There’s a big difference. Ned and Jon wanted justice and they are at fault for nothing, just having bad luck with their friend Robert being a fat drunken fuck....and that is out of their control. 

 

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7 hours ago, nyser1 said:

I agree that it depends on what you want. 

 

I think that Tywin would most efficiently run the realm. I think Jon Arryn would the more equitable ruler. I am sure plenty of arguments could be made for either. However, I would be more inclined to choose the younger man with twenty years of experience running the entire realm & well at that.

I completely forgot that Tywin had served as Aery’s hand, and I didn’t know it was for that long either. 20 years is a long time to be running shit in King's Landing. He probably would have had the Kingdom in top shape if he were King. All would fall into good order I imagine, except for Dorne. They would probably go into open rebellion if they secured atleast one decent ally. Perhaps they unite with the Golden Company at some point or other foreigners....maybe even the Ironborn.

Jon would have had unwavering loyalty from 4 kingdoms and a content Dorne contingent, and I think Tywin would have had a loosely binded, easily divided realm, waiting to fall apart as soon as shit hits the fan. Who knows what the Mighty Tywin would concoct though, probably some very smart political marriages and strategically situated small council positions to solidify his position. 

Edited by Ser Dips A lot

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8 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

Was Robert's crowning in KL?

I imagine it was. In fact, I often wonder if the war was even named Robert’s Rebellion until after he usurped the crown and took the throne. I also imagine that if say Robert wasn’t king at the end, maybe dying of his wounds or allowing Viserys and Danaerys to keep the Targaryen line intact, the war would have been called Jon’s Rebellion. Afterall, he was the first lord to raise his banners against the Mad King. Jon Arryn was the man who set it all into motion, not Robert. 

To answer your question though, Robert was not named king or crowned until the taking of King’s Landing, and the death of the Mad King. 

 

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Say what you will about his brutal methods, Tywin's administrative abilities were second to none.  Aside from restoring order in the West and reestablishing House Lannister as a power to feared, he became Hand of the King at age twenty.  All this before becoming Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West.  He went on to give the realm peace and plenty for nearly twenty years despite the madness of King Aerys.  Realm would have been better off had he been crowned instead of Robert.  

  

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Stallion That Mounts Texas said:

Say what you will about his brutal methods, Tywin's administrative abilities were second to none.  Aside from restoring order in the West and reestablishing House Lannister as a power to feared, he became Hand of the King at age twenty.  All this before becoming Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West.  He went on to give the realm peace and plenty for nearly twenty years despite the madness of King Aerys.  Realm would have been better off had he been crowned instead of Robert.  

  

The realm would certainly be better off. Anyone would have done a better job than Robert, however, and Tywin’s administrative abilities and diplomacy skills would have kept Westeros stable and prosperous. I think Tywin would care more about his legacy though and the Lannister name more than the whole of Westeros, and sooner or later I would see another war in the makes; Dorne would eventually turn on him or probably not even bend the knee in the first place. If Tywin could even force them to, Dorne has never been conquered. A divided realm at his coronation... and who’s to say anyone would even help fight off the ironborn if the Greyjoy Rebellion still takes place, which I imagine would.

My point is, Jon Arryn would be the more accepted king and the realm would be just as well off as it were if Tywin were king, minus the dissension. No one would have any serious resentment towards an Arryn King, after all, their house is built on the principles of honor. 

Edited by Ser Dips A lot

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On ‎2‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 12:39 AM, Ser Dips A lot said:

I completely forgot that Tywin had served as Aery’s hand, and I didn’t know it was for that long either. 20 years is a long time to be running shit in King's Landing. He probably would have had the Kingdom in top shape if he were King. All would fall into good order I imagine, except for Dorne. They would probably go into open rebellion if they secured atleast one decent ally. Perhaps they unite with the Golden Company at some point or other foreigners....maybe even the Ironborn.

Jon would have had unwavering loyalty from 4 kingdoms and a content Dorne contingent, and I think Tywin would have had a loosely binded, easily divided realm, waiting to fall apart as soon as shit hits the fan. Who knows what the Mighty Tywin would concoct though, probably some very smart political marriages and strategically situated small council positions to solidify his position. 

Smart political marriages involving who?!

Himself?! As of the end of Dance, Tywin is the one of the biggest hypocrites (if not the biggest hypocrite) in the entire series. His children?! Yeah right, sure, of course because we all see how that worked out. Making Jaime and Tyrion princes and Cersei a princess just gives them the ability to cause chaos on a much, much larger scale.

Tywin would be a good king but, the moment he died, the realm would be doomed. Neither one of his children are good candidates for power. Not only that but they are not really even good people. Tyrion comes the closest but even that's a stretch.

I would rather have Robert Arryn as a king than Tyrion.

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Smart political marriages involving who?!

Himself?! As of the end of Dance, Tywin is the one of the biggest hypocrites (if not the biggest hypocrite) in the entire series. His children?! Yeah right, sure, of course because we all see how that worked out. Making Jaime and Tyrion princes and Cersei a princess just gives them the ability to cause chaos on a much, much larger scale.

Tywin would be a good king but, the moment he died, the realm would be doomed. Neither one of his children are good candidates for power. Not only that but they are not really even good people. Tyrion comes the closest but even that's a stretch.

I would rather have Robert Arryn as a king than Tyrion.

I guess, he’d have the option to marry Cersie off somewhere since she’s unbinded to Robert in this scenario. A young attractive Lannister bride, to breed strong sons with Lannister loyalty...could secure atleast one noble family. Marrying her off to a Tyrell or Hightower, maybe even Edmure. Discharge Jaime from the Kingsguard and give him the Rock, and wed him to another powerful family...what lord wouldn’t want their nieces and nephews to inherit Casterly Rock or succeed Tywin, then Jaime, as King. And I don’t know what to do with Tyrion... I mean I reckon he’d find a way to do something with him like he tried to do with Sansa. 

Tywin could even remarry himself for fucks sake. But Tywin’s best bet is to name Jaime his heir, and have him produce a son as soon as possible, and groom that young son to be King. Keep Jaime’s son under your wing and mentor him, and stay alive as long as you can to ensure he doesn’t turn out to be a fuckwit like Joffrey.

By the way, I hate the Lannisters. This is just an argument that Tywin could make out alright if he played his cards right.

Edited by Ser Dips A lot

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17 minutes ago, Ser Dips A lot said:

I guess, he’d have the option to marry Cersie off somewhere since she’s unbinded to Robert in this scenario. A young attractive Lannister bride, to breed strong sons with Lannister loyalty...could secure atleast one noble family. Marrying her off to a Tyrell or Hightower, maybe even Edmure. Discharge Jaime from the Kingsguard and give him the Rock, and wed him to another powerful family...what lord wouldn’t want their nieces and nephews to inherit Casterly Rock or succeed Tywin, then Jaime, as King. And I don’t know what to do with Tyrion... I mean I reckon he’d find a way to do something with him like he tried to do with Sansa. 

Tywin could even remarry himself for fucks sake. But Tywin’s best bet is to name Jaime his heir, and have him produce a son as soon as possible, and groom that young son to be King. Keep Jaime’s son under your wing and mentor him, and stay alive as long as you can to ensure he doesn’t turn out to be a fuckwit like Joffrey.

By the way, I hate the Lannisters. This is just an argument that Tywin could make out alright if he played his cards right.

But that's operating under the assumption that Cersei will actually have that man's children. The only man Cersei ever considered setting Jaime aside for was Rhaegar and, even then, I doubt her consideration was serious. If it was, the temptation would be too great. Old habits die hard.

Not even that, Cersei also sabotaged Tywin's plans in the actual timeline. Cersei is one of the main reasons why Jaime was named to the Kingsguard. She wanted to keep him close but it ended up painfully backfiring.

And we're not even going to touch Jaime.

Like people earlier in the thread had said, Tywin would be a good king but he would waste a lot of time, resources and manpower cleaning up their messes. And it's a nightmare waiting to happen because he just pass away or just be injured and the entire country will slide into chaos.

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Jon Arryn is older and he has even worse heir candidate than Tywin, so my choice would be Tywin Lannister. Another thing is that Littlefinger could be even stronger without team Lannister countering him. Naturally assuming that court of Jon I did not have somebody else that would stop schemes  of lord Baelish.

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In the hypothetical scenario of the OT, "Jon Snow" would be by far the best candidate. Even if he was a bastard, he could be legitimized by a Great Council that also set up a group of regents. Just as after the Dance a regency composed by members of both sides of the conflict helped to heal the wounds of the Civil War, it could work now.

But if I can only choose between Jon Arryn and Tywin Lannister, I'd have to go with Jon. A bad choice in terms of age and heirs, but better than Tywin's endless ambition, cruelty and sickly pride.

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Jon Arryn would be a better king, I think.

First off, we can infer a lot about Tywin from his children's attitudes.  He clearly does not view smallfolk or even lesser nobility as actual people, just disposable tools.  I think that while he is an efficient administrator, he's not very charismatic and he doesn't have any kind of sense of justice.

Jon Arryn ran the kingdom while Robert went off the rails.  That is a time of peace and plenty - aside from the rot in Robert's court, the realm is prosperous.  Jon Arryn has displayed administrative ability and diplomatic chops, in pacifying Oberyn's rebellion and keeping Dorne happy & in the realm.  I don't think Tywin is capable of that kind of diplomacy, leaving aside the fact that he's the cause of that particular issue.

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If Robert died on the Trident, a lot may have changed about that war. Ned would have continued on seeking justice for his dead father and brother. But without the idea of Robert taking the throne, I'm not sure Tywin stirs himself to head for King's Landing. Tywin's not much interested in revenge or justice. Where's the gain for House Lannister in helping out Ned Stark?

Saying it all happens as you say though, I don't think Dorne lays down for either Jon Arryn or Tywin Lannister. And I don't think the Reach does either. With Robert dead, I'm not sure why Ned would go lift the siege on Storm's End before heading to the Tower of Joy. His purpose in coming south was justice which he got when Aerys was dead and retrieving Lyanna. Otherwise, he only cared about matters of the southern kingdoms because of his loyalty to Robert. So if Tywin isn't getting either Dorne or the Reach to kneel, he's certainly not getting the North or the Vale or the Riverlands to surrender. Jon Arryn would have the same problem with Dorne and the Reach as well as Tywin's Westerlands and possibly the North as well if Ned feels betrayed by this shameless power grab.

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