Jump to content
Daemon of the Blacks

The Blacks or the Greens?

Recommended Posts

Which of the two factions do you prefer during the Dance of the Dragons? Do you support the rightful queen Rhaenya or are you in league with the usurper Aegon II? Which side has your favorite commanders and which of your favorite houses ended up with your preferred faction? Which pretender was the legitimate one and why was it obviously Rhaenya? 

Some of my favorite houses like the Lanisters, Baratheons and Hightowers ended up with the Greens but despite that I found myself favoring the Blacks to a significant extend. All in all the Blacks seem far more capable than the Greens ever were. Aegon II was a pretty awful war leader and while Rhaenya was hardly any better she seemed to be the weak link in a faction of capable people while an air of incompetence surrounds the Greens. At Aegon's side were Aemond and Cole who felt it was a good idea to self destruct in the Riverlands and give the Blacks a chance to take the capitol, Cole had a pretty clever plot to kill Rhaenys but seemed unable or unwilling to correct the mistakes of either Aemond or Aemon. Otto hightower was pretty clever by enlisting the Triarchy, but somehow overlooked that his rival Daemon was the one who founded the Goldcloaks despite having been Daemon's rival for decades. Lord Lannister died pretty early in the war and for all his bluster Borros Baratheon got destroyed by ''boys and woman'' when he finally got around to fighting the Blacks. Prince Daeron seemed to be the only one who didn't blunder throughout the war but since he was just a kid he never rose far enough on the political ladder for the Greens to benefit from his skills. 

To contrast the mediocrity of the Greens the Blacks had some of the most capable commanders of the era like Corlys and Daemon while also earning the loyalty of very talented new blood like prince Jace, Benjicot, Alyn and Cregan Stark. Rhaenya, in all her genius eventually drove off Corlys and Daemon but she failed her faction rather than her faction collectively failing her like with the Greens. 

Generally the Black commanders speak more to the imagination. The have a rogue, dragon riding Targaryen pirate prince, an elderly ''sea serpent'' who traveled the world, Benjicot the capable kid general or a future legend like Alyn. In contrast the Green have a big brat riding a huge dragon, an incompetent king, a competent pencil pushing Hand that got fired, and the grand genius that was Unwin Peak. 

On the question of legitimacy the Blacks have a pretty easy win since their opponents blatantly disregarding the decree of the late king and killing the one who disagreed wasn't particularly legitimate of them.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am biased towards the Blacks, since I think most people in that faction where pretty cool. They had Daemon Targaryen, Cregan Stark, Dalton Greyjoy (sort of) and Alyn Velaryon. Who did the Greens have that was even remotely cool. 

Edited by Euron III Greyjoy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really don't care about houses as such, so I don't care who supported either of the sides.

It seems clear, though, that the Blacks had the juster cause and the better people. There is pretty much no sympathetic Green that I can think of unless one would arbitrarily declare that some extra with a name in the background was 'sympathetic' on the basis that we don't know that this person did anything bad.

I do like the man Tyland Lannister became after the war was over, but I don't think he was a good or sympathetic guy. What we see of him before he goes to the torture chambers marks as an ambitious opportunist (keep in mind that he and his brother both once wanted to marry Princess Rhaenyra!), and afterwards he suggests to murder innocent children.

I also got a softer spot for the moron Aemond now that we know that Maris Baratheon goaded him into pursuing Lucerys, but he remains still one of the most unpleasant characters in the entire series.

Who I really like are all those humble Riverlanders who rose for Rhaenyra before the nobles bestirred themselves. That shows real commitment and loyalty and is, I think, doubly noteworthy since Aegon II doesn't get such loyal followers. Nobody fights for him because of an idealistic reason - like they have sworn a vow to him which they later remember, or that they think he is 'the better man', like Eustace Osgrey thought Daemon Blackfyre was.

It is also rather unpleasant how many turncloaks and traitors fought for the Greens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

Which of the two factions do you prefer during the Dance of the Dragons? Do you support the rightful queen Rhaenya or are you in league with the usurper Aegon II? Which side has your favorite commanders and which of your favorite houses ended up with your preferred faction? Which pretender was the legitimate one and why was it obviously Rhaenya? 

Some of my favorite houses like the Lanisters, Baratheons and Hightowers ended up with the Greens but despite that I found myself favoring the Blacks to a significant extend. All in all the Blacks seem far more capable than the Greens ever were. Aegon II was a pretty awful war leader and while Rhaenya was hardly any better she seemed to be the weak link in a faction of capable people while an air of incompetence surrounds the Greens. At Aegon's side were Aemond and Cole who felt it was a good idea to self destruct in the Riverlands and give the Blacks a chance to take the capitol, Cole had a pretty clever plot to kill Rhaenys but seemed unable or unwilling to correct the mistakes of either Aemond or Aemon. Otto hightower was pretty clever by enlisting the Triarchy, but somehow overlooked that his rival Daemon was the one who founded the Goldcloaks despite having been Daemon's rival for decades. Lord Lannister died pretty early in the war and for all his bluster Borros Baratheon got destroyed by ''boys and woman'' when he finally got around to fighting the Blacks. Prince Daeron seemed to be the only one who didn't blunder throughout the war but since he was just a kid he never rose far enough on the political ladder for the Greens to benefit from his skills. 

To contrast the mediocrity of the Greens the Blacks had some of the most capable commanders of the era like Corlys and Daemon while also earning the loyalty of very talented new blood like prince Jace, Benjicot, Alyn and Cregan Stark. Rhaenya, in all her genius eventually drove off Corlys and Daemon but she failed her faction rather than her faction collectively failing her like with the Greens. 

Generally the Black commanders speak more to the imagination. The have a rogue, dragon riding Targaryen pirate prince, an elderly ''sea serpent'' who traveled the world, Benjicot the capable kid general or a future legend like Alyn. In contrast the Green have a big brat riding a huge dragon, an incompetent king, a competent pencil pushing Hand that got fired, and the grand genius that was Unwin Peak. 

On the question of legitimacy the Blacks have a pretty easy win since their opponents blatantly disregarding the decree of the late king and killing the one who disagreed wasn't particularly legitimate of them.  

I have similar feelings towards the houses that supported the Greens yet I too favored the Blacks. 

 

Since Viserys never formally acknowledged Aegon II has his heir I found myself sympathetic towards Rhaenyra. Throw in the behavior of Alicent/Otto Hightower and Aemond and voila. Blacks supporter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Blacks - because Addam of Hull, who met the Order of the Green Men. That's too cool for school. Plus he singlehandedly raised 4000 men.

I have always wondered if his trip to the Isle of Faces and meeting with the Green Men would come up again in the story?

I feel it will, for no particular reason.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me the Blacks had all the justification and the Greens had pretty much none. A bit disappointing, I was expecting it to be a bit narrower in truth but oh well.

The Blacks were in general far more entertaining and attractive as characters. They were in general far more competent, sympathetic, interesting and cool than the Greens. With the Blacks you can make a long list of awesome characters like Daemon, Corlys, Addam, Alyn, Baela, Rhaenys, Ben, Kermit, Cregan, Black Aly, Thaddeus Rowan and Roddy the Ruin (plus a bunch of cool side characters like the Lionslayer and Forest Frey). By contrast the only green I can outright say that I liked was Daeron. I did like the Tyland we see post-Dance but he only becomes that person because of what he goes through during the war and while I disliked Larys morally he was at least interesting and competent. But after those three, the Greens collective intelligence nose dives.

Aemond, Alicent and Cole are utterly unsympathetic and the only major victory they actually engineer is killing Rhaenys and even that comes at the cost of crippling their King, then Cole and Aemond leave K.L undefended and then split up to be taken down seperately. Aegon starts out sympathetic but rapidly loses his mind. Helaena I felt bad for but never really got attached to and Baratheon was just a dick. Otto was just an overly ambitious schemer and was clever enough to bring the Triarchy onboard (for all the good they did) but completely misses a Kingsguard loyal to Rhaenyra until he's gone and then puts one of her past suitors in charge of the Goldcloaks. Roxton was a badass but also a scumbag and Peake was a decent enough schemer but didn't actually do anything of note to help his King and seemed to only side with the one likely to reward him. And beyond those, who was there really?

It probably helps that Rowan, Velaryon, Royce, Stark and Blackwood all declare Black, seeing as those are some of my favourite houses. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The fact that both the Brackens and the Blackwoods are Blacks in the end seals the deal for me insofar as who was in the right about the whole thing...

Then again the Brackens wouldn't be the Brackens if they weren't on the wrong side at least for a bit. I wonder if George doesn't like them since they are depicted as the inferiors of the Blackwoods in all three era's of conflict.

In the main series the Bracken's end up siding with the Lannisters after the red wedding, contrasting the loyalty of the Blackwoods.

In the Blackfyre rebellion its a Bracken who's the mastermind behind the multiple insurgencies while a Blackwood protected the Targaryen dynasty. 

And in the dance they join the Greens and are fairly quickly knocked out of the green faction without acquiring a leading role within the Black riverlords like the Blackwoods do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, I just meant that something must be really, really right/significant when these two agree. They did when Robb was crowned, they did when they made Benedict Rivers King of the Riverlands, etc.

During the Dance I'd actually say that the Blackwoods are just doing what the Brackens did after the Red Wedding. They declared for the other side to get a pretext to attack their ancient enemies. Jonos Bracken chose Joffrey, Samwell Blackwood Rhaenyra.

After all, those Blackwood attacks on the Bracken lands are totally unprovoked. 

It changes somewhat later with Benjicot and all, but I really don't think the Blackwoods are great because they invade their neighbor's lands, spoil septs, and butcher the smallfolk.

As for the later stuff - I'd not see Bittersteel or Bloodraven as Brackens/Blackwoods. They are both legitimized Targaryen bastards, and while some of the animosity they feel for each other might got back to their upbringing with the families of their mothers, I very much doubt their post-Redgrass Fields exploits had much to do with family feuds. The Brackens were sort of with Daemon Blackfyre, it seems, but at least Lord Bracken was not on the Redgrass Field with him, but they didn't participate in the Second Rebellion, and may have stayed out of the Third and Fourth as well.

Bittersteel's grandfather died a long time ago, and Bittersteel may not have been particularly close to whoever was Lord of Stonehedge in the early 3rd century. He would have just been some exiled cousin, and the fact that the Brackens are still a powerful force and not in obscurity means they knew better than to involve themselves in great politics - a rather wise choice after Aegon IV executed both Bethany and her father.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I just meant that something must be really, really right/significant when these two agree. They did when Robb was crowned, they did when they made Benedict Rivers King of the Riverlands, etc.

During the Dance I'd actually say that the Blackwoods are just doing what the Brackens did after the Red Wedding. They declared for the other side to get a pretext to attack their ancient enemies. Jonos Bracken chose Joffrey, Samwell Blackwood Rhaenyra.

After all, those Blackwood attacks on the Bracken lands are totally unprovoked. 

It changes somewhat later with Benjicot and all, but I really don't think the Blackwoods are great because they invade their neighbor's lands, spoil septs, and butcher the smallfolk.

As for the later stuff - I'd not see Bittersteel or Bloodraven as Brackens/Blackwoods. They are both legitimized Targaryen bastards, and while some of the animosity they feel for each other might got back to their upbringing with the families of their mothers, I very much doubt their post-Redgrass Fields exploits had much to do with family feuds. The Brackens were sort of with Daemon Blackfyre, it seems, but at least Lord Bracken was not on the Redgrass Field with him, but they didn't participate in the Second Rebellion, and may have stayed out of the Third and Fourth as well.

Bittersteel's grandfather died a long time ago, and Bittersteel may not have been particularly close to whoever was Lord of Stonehedge in the early 3rd century. He would have just been some exiled cousin, and the fact that the Brackens are still a powerful force and not in obscurity means they knew better than to involve themselves in great politics - a rather wise choice after Aegon IV executed both Bethany and her father.

Weirdly enough, since you mentioned those two, I am normally a fan of the Blackwoods as opposed to the Brackens, except where Bloodraven and Bittersteel are concerned. I despise Bloodraven for his duplicitous and unjust actions, while I admire Bittersteel for his resolve and determination despite any defeats. Neither one is a saint, but I never liked Bloodraven, while Bittersteel earns a grudging respect in a similar way that Stannis Baratheon invokes my respect. Plus, let’s be honest, Bittersteel has the better moniker.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 First I want to say I don’t intend to have debate about my opinions of the Factions,  mostly because the subject is too wide to do it in this thread (especially not with Master of Wind) .

 If another more focused topic arise  I would join if people don’t mind to say my view of the matter.

Little joke first It  is so Black in this thread, I fell like stumbling in Goth gathering.

Before F&B I would say neither, but now  with numerous comments that represent Blacks as heroes by many fans,  it makes me look text more critically looking for patterns and repeating behavior of characters.

I find Greens  lesser evil of the two, and enjoy their small victories more when reading about the Dying of the Dragons.

For every supposed scheme and villainous action of the Greens , Black leadership manages to out do them in sheer evil of actions and idiocy.

Greens seem more as underdog throughout the war and biggest hits against opposing side are done by non conventional means, it makes the story more refreshing if not absolutely satisfying.

Green Houses aren't my favorite in time of Asoiaf except Baratheons though they are hardly any benefit to the cause of Greens when it was needed. Lannisters who I am not fan of in Asoiaf actually commit the most in the Green cause and I appreciate them more now.Though what failings the Green have doesn't make me like Blacks much. Though I try to evaluate people and Houses by their actions in this story not in the future.

Black were so capable that they managed to win both Greens and themselves in the war.

Regarding characters and some Houses:
Aegon II was crappy leader but Rhaenyra outmatched him in every turn in cruelty, incompetence, paranoia and what not.

Daemon who many loud as hero , has ordered one of the most evil acts in the series, he constantly preyed on weaker and young ,his path strewn with abuse and murder.
His constant  collusion with criminal scum and corruption of every institution also is reason for me despising him. He could have achieved great things with his heritage and Dragon but due his capricious nature everything he ever done turns to crap. He was one of the main catalyst and almost ruin of the Dynasty.

Velaryons are mostly represented as virtuous in  the story,   I appreciate Addam , and think Rhaenys would be decent Queen. Though behind the nice facade hides rotten mold, after all Corlys ever ambitious poisoned the King he swore oath to and made peace with marriage ,and  some time later princess Jaehaera  mysteriously dies and Velaryon ward marries to the throne. They use intrigue as much as Hightowers though they are glorified and other are berated for same . They also ultimately and deservedly become minor house , possibly by their long term attempts to play the Game.

Blacks also manage to loose from Kings Landing rabble also getting entirety of Queensguard and Goldcloaks unceremoniously killed, which isn't big loss , but oh the death of dragons is biggest reason why I detest the Blacks.

Riverlands is strangely participating in many of the battles, while managing to win some but despite heavy losses which other opposing Houses suffered in similar or less numbers, they still manage to field armies and influence earlier end to war ,  let alone that warfare in some places is described as Vietnam, which I find rather implausible.

Riverlanders especially Muppets and Crash Bandicoot as many Blackwoods, sound mostly like fan service, especially the tone from extremely bitter becomes retching sweet in parts of the Hour of the Wolf and when marriages stop the continuation of war.

That is all even when the Novel features non omnipotent view but uses various historical sources , that usually favor the wining side, for example in the text how many times is Aemond called kinslayer and how many times Daemon.

I also dread to imagine how would potential TV series look like using template of Season 5 HBO Animated Feature. With omission of whole prelude to war and various schemes of Black supporters, showing events from mostly sources that favor the Blacks, Rhaenyra's all children having Valyrian look ( maybe their description wasn't known at the time) and herself not represented as stout or thick of waist unlike of strangely rather correct depiction of Queen Helaena , though that version would unlike differences in the show probably be celebrated by most of the fans.
 
Question of legitimacy is never easy. How did Viserys inherit, how did Jaeharys, Maegor, Aenys, Aegon the Dragon. Is there a written law, or are there customs and efforts of better kings then Viserys to unite realm and have the subjects say about the matter. 

Though he was  proclaimed by the will of Great Council , King decides to counter that decision so that his brother wouldn’t inherit (for obvious reasons) so he proclaims his daughter the heir, and to strengthen it makes lords swear to her.
His daughter and same brother marry later without his consent and he does nothing about it , which makes his fumbling the succession one of the biggest blunders in the history of Westeros.

“How can we win, when fools can be kings”

Should people of Westeros be playthings of fickle Kings who hand their realm in the hands of Tyrants, they have enough to contend with bidding of Gods, so that incompetent Kings words would be holy word and bring ruin.
If people leave everything to the whim of one man not limited with other forms of government or rules , You get Tyranny which  I am always against of.

Daeron the Daring, Ser Criston Cole, Sunfyre the Golden, Tyland Lannister, Larys Strong, Marston Waters, Ser John Roxton the Bold all I find likable to certain extent due to their feats mostly. I am not fan of Aemond especially, I think that mostly his blunders caused the downfall of Greens. 

 But Aegon II for all misgivings had mounted his dragon in battle twice risking his life even after being burned and shown some mettle at least, he also has shown to be less cruel then his half sister, he didn’t make high treason by trying to put his bastard children as heirs to the Iron Throne , he even did clean up the mess Rhaenyra had left when she fled the Kings Landing.

Edited by Eltharion21

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, James Steller said:

Weirdly enough, since you mentioned those two, I am normally a fan of the Blackwoods as opposed to the Brackens, except where Bloodraven and Bittersteel are concerned. I despise Bloodraven for his duplicitous and unjust actions, while I admire Bittersteel for his resolve and determination despite any defeats. Neither one is a saint, but I never liked Bloodraven, while Bittersteel earns a grudging respect in a similar way that Stannis Baratheon invokes my respect. Plus, let’s be honest, Bittersteel has the better moniker.

Bittersteel certainly has the cooler name, but I don't think one can really *like* the guy at this point. We never met him, never saw him react to something, never heard him say something. And I daresay I don't consider it very sympathetic how he withheld Blackfyre from his king, Daemon II, and refused to support him during his attempt to win the throne. Perhaps we'll get his opinion on the matter in the future sometime, but until such time the guy looks suspect to me. Even more so for his role in the First Blackfyre Rebellion. However you want to spin it, Daeron II was the crowned and anointed king and his ingrate half-brothers had recognized him as such.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It was a stupid dance that could have been avoided.  Viserys should have never remarried.  But okay, if he was going to, it should have a woman from a less powerful family. 

 I like Beesbury most of all.  He’s a loyal man.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guys, remember we are talking about the Dance of Dragons, not the Blackfyre Rebelion!

I was thinking about starting a topic about Rhaenyra and Aegon, so I've some ideas about the subject...

- Which side I prefer? Well, none of them. Both are leaded by murderous stupids. Who don't care about right or wrong, but about pride and grievances. 

Worst of all are One-Eyed Aemond and Daemon. These two deserved each other. Aemond is clearly Joffrey with a dragon and Daemon has skills, but only cares about his ambition. The kind of guy who murders childs to get the throne, and next gets bored with it. Martin makes some efforts to light the last days of Daemon, but what he did is simply unforgetable.

- Which side is the right one? Well, if you accept the Great Council of 101 as a law (or a precedent), Aegon is the one. If you think Viserys I could do what he pleased no matter what it said, then Rhaenyra.  As I dislike absolute monarchies, I tend to regard Great Councils with respect.

Martin clearly favors the Blacks. The Greens plundered Tumbleton and burned the Riverlands. Criston Cole killed the first victim. The Greens are showed winning against superior armies (but in my opinion they started in a better position: the Dale, the North, and the Riverlands, part of the Reach at their side, Highgarden neutral, Velarion's fleet...).

- Favourite general? Well, Joanna Lannister, who only defended the Westernlands from the Red Kraken. But if you ask me for a directly implicated captain.... Well, nobody. The Lads showed some talent. But they fought dirty. Adrian Tarbeck fought well, but died too soon. Borros Baratheon was no genius. 

- Favourite army? Well, the Lannister pikemen resisting charge after charge of the Winter Wolves, despite being surounded by three sides reminds me the last square at Waterloo.

- THE MAN WHO WON THE WAR? That was Tyland Lannister, by keeping the gold safe. I don't think he was oportunistic (he didn't get any profit, and the Lannisters didn't keep the Crown money).

I feel some sympathy for the victims. Poor Helaena and her kids. Poor tortured Ser Tyland. For some reason I pity Aegon II. He was more stupid than evil. Clearly misguided by Alicent and Criston Cole. He showed some courage at times (unlike Rhaenyra, who from time to time show some wits). 

Also I think Fool Frey went to war to get away from his wife.

I enjoyed some moments of the Dance, but I think Martin sometimes doesn't know what to do with so many kingdoms at war at the same time. I mean... Really Highgarden was so craven? really the North and the Vale spend two years sleeping? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, the Last Teague said:

I enjoyed some moments of the Dance, but I think Martin sometimes doesn't know what to do with so many kingdoms at war at the same time. I mean... Really Highgarden was so craven? really the North and the Vale spend two years sleeping? 

In fairness the Lord of Highgarden is a child at the time, it's his regent mother (not a Tyrell herself I believe) who keeps them out of the war since she can't stop her bannermen fighting each other. As for the North and Vale, they hardly spend the war sleeping. Both kingdoms send forces early on (Winter Wolves and the Royce/Manderly forces that help take Kings Landing. The problem is the war happens in the middle of winter is seems, or at least early spring. The Vale's passes are iced over and blocked by snow so the small Gulltown fleet is the only way out. The North is huge and takes a long time to gather its armies at the best of times, let alone when they're stuck beneath several feet of snow.

Plus the Winter Wolves amassed a higher body count than any other force in the war, so their contribution was quite significant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Greens seem more as underdog throughout the war and biggest hits against opposing side are done by non conventional means, it makes the story more refreshing if not absolutely satisfying.

You are not underdog when you control the Iron Throne. Not sure what you mean by non-conventional means. The only real victories the Greens won were conventional victories in battle.

9 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Aegon II was crappy leader but Rhaenyra outmatched him in every turn in cruelty, incompetence, paranoia and what not.

Not really. Aegon II murdered Rhaenyra, and he burned hundreds of people for the crime of rebelling against the half-sister he fought against, too. Rhaenyra didn't even remotely similar things.

9 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Daemon who many loud as hero , has ordered one of the most evil acts in the series, he constantly preyed on weaker and young ,his path strewn with abuse and murder.
His constant  collusion with criminal scum and corruption of every institution also is reason for me despising him. He could have achieved great things with his heritage and Dragon but due his capricious nature everything he ever done turns to crap. He was one of the main catalyst and almost ruin of the Dynasty.

The Dance is completely the fault of the Greens. Had they not staged the coup, there wouldn't have been a war. Daemon is still an ass, but he did nothing to cause a war.

9 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Velaryons are mostly represented as virtuous in  the story,   I appreciate Addam , and think Rhaenys would be decent Queen. Though behind the nice facade hides rotten mold, after all Corlys ever ambitious poisoned the King he swore oath to and made peace with marriage ,and  some time later princess Jaehaera  mysteriously dies and Velaryon ward marries to the throne. They use intrigue as much as Hightowers though they are glorified and other are berated for same . They also ultimately and deservedly become minor house , possibly by their long term attempts to play the Game.

That is just a silly idea. Every evidence we get in the book points to Unwin Peake as the man behind Jaehaera's murder. Nothing indicates that Alyn Velaryon had anything to do with that. If Alyn had been ambitious he would have paid Drazenko Rogare to murder Prince Viserys, not bring him back.

9 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Riverlands is strangely participating in many of the battles, while managing to win some but despite heavy losses which other opposing Houses suffered in similar or less numbers, they still manage to field armies and influence earlier end to war ,  let alone that warfare in some places is described as Vietnam, which I find rather implausible.

You would have to keep in mind there that not all Riverlanders actually participated in the fighting earlier in the war. The Tullys, for instance, stayed out of it until Second Tumbleton.

9 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

That is all even when the Novel features non omnipotent view but uses various historical sources , that usually favor the wining side, for example in the text how many times is Aemond called kinslayer and how many times Daemon.

Aemond did kill his nephew with his own hands/dragon, Daemon did no such thing. And Jaehaera was just his great-nephew, not exactly a close relation.

9 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Daeron the Daring, Ser Criston Cole, Sunfyre the Golden, Tyland Lannister, Larys Strong, Marston Waters, Ser John Roxton the Bold all I find likable to certain extent due to their feats mostly. 

Not sure what's likable in Cole, Strong, or Roxton. Cole's main motivation is jealousy and/or unrequited love, Strong is a sleazy bastard who played everybody against each other, murdered his king, and then even got a reasonably nice exit, and Roxton is just a rapist and murderer.

9 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

But Aegon II for all misgivings had mounted his dragon in battle twice risking his life even after being burned and shown some mettle at least, he also has shown to be less cruel then his half sister, he didn’t make high treason by trying to put his bastard children as heirs to the Iron Throne , he even did clean up the mess Rhaenyra had left when she fled the Kings Landing.

Aegon II is crueler than his half-sister, and he only mounted his dragon once in battle - and got what he deserved when he did that. The second time he did not want to fight, he just wanted to fly triumphantly into Dragonstone.

He also didn't clean up any mess. Borros Baratheon did. Aegon II's sorry ass was still on Dragonstone when the city was cleaned up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, the Last Teague said:

Worst of all are One-Eyed Aemond and Daemon. These two deserved each other. Aemond is clearly Joffrey with a dragon and Daemon has skills, but only cares about his ambition. The kind of guy who murders childs to get the throne, and next gets bored with it. Martin makes some efforts to light the last days of Daemon, but what he did is simply unforgetable.

Daemon had a child murdered, singular, and that only to avenge his stepson. It is a cruel thing to do, but not uncommon in this world of blood feuds. It also had nothing to do with winning the throne but settling a score.

6 hours ago, the Last Teague said:

- Which side is the right one? Well, if you accept the Great Council of 101 as a law (or a precedent), Aegon is the one. If you think Viserys I could do what he pleased no matter what it said, then Rhaenyra.  As I dislike absolute monarchies, I tend to regard Great Councils with respect.

Viserys I didn't do what he wanted in 105 AC, he went along with what his court led by Ser Otto Hightower suggested. They all wanted Rhaenyra to be the heir.

The Great Council certainly set a strong precedent, but it was one that clearly did not carry much water if the only male heir of the king was a man the majority of the court did not like. And this is why it is just a precedent and not law. Precedents can be ignored. And they should if the situation you are dealing with is not exactly the same situation covered by the precedent.

6 hours ago, the Last Teague said:

- THE MAN WHO WON THE WAR? That was Tyland Lannister, by keeping the gold safe. I don't think he was oportunistic (he didn't get any profit, and the Lannisters didn't keep the Crown money).

Sure he was an opportunist. He and his twin-brother both wanted to marry Rhaenyra. Who do you think they would have supported had one of them married her? Do you think Tyland would have then pointed out that he never swore a vow to uphold her rights of succession? I don't think so.

We don't know why Tyland and Jason sided with the Greens but chances are not that bad that petty jealousy had something to do with that. Rhaenyra was the first - and so far - only ticket for a man to seat his son on the Iron Throne by marrying a future Queen Regnant. And she rejected the Lannisters.

6 hours ago, the Last Teague said:

I feel some sympathy for the victims. Poor Helaena and her kids. Poor tortured Ser Tyland. For some reason I pity Aegon II. He was more stupid than evil. Clearly misguided by Alicent and Criston Cole. He showed some courage at times (unlike Rhaenyra, who from time to time show some wits). 

You really have sympathy for a guy who threw a party when his brother had married their nephew??? Who burned hundreds of people whose crime was to rebel against the half-sister he fought against, too?

6 hours ago, the Last Teague said:

Also I think Fool Frey went to war to get away from his wife.

Not sure how this would have worked considering that Sabitha fought in the war, too.

6 hours ago, the Last Teague said:

I enjoyed some moments of the Dance, but I think Martin sometimes doesn't know what to do with so many kingdoms at war at the same time. I mean... Really Highgarden was so craven? really the North and the Vale spend two years sleeping? 

The Tyrells are smart. The greatest heroes of the Dance are those guys who saved their strength, sat back with a smile on their lips, and enjoyed the pointless bloodletting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fire and Blood does seem to paint the Blacks as the underdogs. The Narration even makes it a point to mention the Greens hold the Iron throne, the red keep and the mayor cities of Westeros while the Blacks wouldn't even be able to defeat the Hightowers without their dragons. 

That said the roles do flip eventually. Once their king goes into a coma, Cole and lord Lanister get killed, the capitol falls and Aemond keeps being incompetent the Greens do look more like an underdog.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

That said the roles do flip eventually. Once their king goes into a coma, Cole and lord Lanister get killed, the capitol falls and Aemond keeps being incompetent the Greens do look more like an underdog.

They still have the largest army in the field at that point, and Aegon II is already back when Rhaenyra has to leave KL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You are not underdog when you control the Iron Throne. Not sure what you mean by non-conventional means. The only real victories the Greens won were conventional victories in battle.

Blacks had more dragons, which can’t be underestimated for starters, although they misused them. Naval supremacy was also overwhelming even after war ended.

"Those who sat at the black council counted themselves loyalists, but knew full well that King Aegon II would name them traitors. Each had already received a summons from King’s Landing, demanding they present themselves at the Red Keep to swear oaths of loyalty to the new king. All their hosts combined could not match the power the Hightowers alone could field. Aegon’s greens enjoyed other advantages as well. Oldtown, King’s Landing, and Lannisport were the largest and richest cities in the realm; all three were held by greens. Every visible symbol of legitimacy belonged to Aegon. He sat the Iron Throne. He lived in the Red Keep. He wore the Conqueror’s crown, wielded the Conqueror’s sword, and had been anointed by a septon of the Faith before the eyes of tens of thousands. Grand Maester Orwyle sat in his councils, and the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard had placed the crown upon his princely head. And he was male, which in the eyes of many made him the rightful king, his half-sister the usurper."

 Riches of Aegon II supporters comes little in term of buying sell swords considering the great advantage in that field, Hightowers do not represent entirety of Reach with many Houses being on side of blacks ,while Tyrells being neutral,  unlike North, Vale and most of Riverlands who supported blacks. Baratheon only join at the end, even if they would have beaten Riverlands army  they would be overwhelmed by Vale and North. Many of other things mentioned above prove to be of much less importance than alliance with the Great Lords which is major contribution to victory. 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not really. Aegon II murdered Rhaenyra, and he burned hundreds of people for the crime of rebelling against the half-sister he fought against, too. Rhaenyra didn't even remotely similar things.

Aegon Ii executed Rhaenyra for crimes of high treason since the war started he considered himself as rightful King and she was rebel or traitor.
He burned Shepherd and 240 of his most zealous supporters for crime of murdering men and dragons of his House. Rhaenyra didn’t do many things that she should have.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Dance is completely the fault of the Greens. Had they not staged the coup, there wouldn't have been a war. Daemon is still an ass, but he did nothing to cause a war.

It takes two for tango. Coup started long ago with Daemon seducing his 14 year old niece, later marrying her after many suspicious deaths without consent of king , actually forming Black alliance 10 years before Viserys's death,  even though she was named against the ruling of Great council and practice of succession  specifically so he wouldn’t be king.
His decisions in multiple occasion influenced destabilization and increased volatility of actions

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is just a silly idea. Every evidence we get in the book points to Unwin Peake as the man behind Jaehaera's murder. Nothing indicates that Alyn Velaryon had anything to do with that. If Alyn had been ambitious he would have paid Drazenko Rogare to murder Prince Viserys, not bring him back.

If you don’t like something it doesn’t make it silly. Little mentioned House Harte and Ser Denys were mentioned in hiring faceless men in Bravos to kill rival in Kings Landing prior to death of Queen Jaehaera.  Hazel Harte is mother of Daenara Velaryon  ward of house Velaryon  at that time, House who had tried since time of Great Council of 101 ac to get closer to the power.

Unwin Peake had no chance in marrying his daughter to Aegon II, he brought her rather late to court if he planned the murder , which he could have done any time .   He was green supporter and great Lords of Black : Arryn, Tully and Stark among others sent their messages warning him against it. 
Alyn was recently acknowledged bastard in a House that had many woes regarding bastards in which branch of Vaemond Velaryon grandfather of Daenara suffered a lot. Some members even tried to kill him so his situation as ruler of the house wasn't certain at all and he certainly wanted to keep his fleets.

He might have made deal to support that part of Velaryons in their bid to the throne while they acknowledge his rule over House Velaryon.
Alyn found about Viserys after the death of Queen Jaehaera  Aegon and Daenara were married in 133AC he was back in 134 AC,  why would he kill Viserys he was second born, and better that he get him home and get hero points and  have additional ally than  Lyseni trying to make deal with someone else.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You would have to keep in mind there that not all Riverlanders actually participated in the fighting earlier in the war. The Tullys, for instance, stayed out of it until Second Tumbleton.

The numbers with losses by the Regions/houses doesn't add up, Riverlands lose 8000 – 12000 men in two battles alone, not counting other minor engagements, we have no such reports of such huge losses of other side especially Reach or Westerlands,  them primarily participating in most battles is disbelieving.

If the Greens in fact had much advantage in numbers at start of war records of their losses and estimates of manpower of regions in Asoiaf make their involvement very implausible when other houses give up the war with far fewer losses. 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Aemond did kill his nephew with his own hands/dragon, Daemon did no such thing. And Jaehaera was just his great-nephew, not exactly a close relation.

Aemond killed with Dragon , Daemon with words to  assassins,  What about Jahearea and Daemon? Daemon actually killed Aemond with his own hand so he is double kin-slayer.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure what's likable in Cole, Strong, or Roxton. Cole's main motivation is jealousy and/or unrequited love, Strong is a sleazy bastard who played everybody against each other, murdered his king, and then even got a reasonably nice exit, and Roxton is just a rapist and murderer.

Well I am not sure what is likable in Varys yet you wear his name and face, If any half decent person was ruling his and Littlefinger's head would be first to roll.


Versions about Cole vary and that is only one of them.  Though what is undoubtable is that he was great warrior beating Brokenbones, Lonmouth and Daemon  among some. His plan was Ambush at Rooks Rest where he was bait along with his men, he fought on ground until bitter end for his king. Roxton killed Ulf the Betrayer knowing he would face 10 other men that moment makes me like him a bit. Strong I admire for his ability as master of whisperers not for his morality though he is intriguing  as character and in his final moment he showed some mettle.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon II is crueler than his half-sister, and he only mounted his dragon once in battle - and got what he deserved when he did that. The second time he did not want to fight, he just wanted to fly triumphantly into Dragonstone.

He also didn't clean up any mess. Borros Baratheon did. Aegon II's sorry ass was still on Dragonstone when the city was cleaned up.

Borros has done will of Aegon II , arrested various traitors and they waited Kings justice which was appropriate to the crime. He had part in judging those accused of treason and murder, though lot were pardoned beforehand.

Aegon II faced Rhaenys at Rooks rest , got burned and armor fused but Red Queen was dead. He mounted his dragon again to take Dragonstone and there was fight with Baela and her dragon, he won again. He fought and would fought regardless, because he would loose everything if he didn’t , if he knew there were some defenses he would arrived better prepared.

Aegon II is known as Usurper by some , Rhaenyra as Maegor’s Teats , she and her short and bloody rule  are  one of biggest reasons why there is reinforced notion that women aren’t illegible to succeed later in Westeros.

If you failed to notice part in my post I said that I don't plan to argue about my opinions here , mostly that I don't have time as some people to engage in debates constantly, lets please don't continue to derail this thread also.

Edited by Eltharion21

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×