The Blacks or the Greens?

[Vaith]

13 hours ago, DMC said:

That's not really what I was arguing.  I was just admitting that, yes, if Rhaenyra's reign was accepted and lasted without incident that sure, that could change perceptions regarding inheritance.  Could not be too, I don't really care.

I don't think you can argue your decision is about long-term stability when that decision literally means you're starting a civil war.

Yeah. It does only work when divorced of context. 

Again I can’t really help but condemn Viserys I for setting up pretty much everything in the Dance in the first place.

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Vaith said:

Again I can’t really help but condemn Viserys I for setting up pretty much everything in the Dance in the first place.

Sure, that's fair.

[Missing Benjen]

Seems like I am one of the few who prefer the Greens. 

And that is because I honestly have to admit that, yes, I quite enjoy the Characters on their side, while I never could really warm up with Daemon or especially Rhaenyra.

 

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Vaith said:

Yeah. It does only work when divorced of context. 

Again I can’t really help but condemn Viserys I for setting up pretty much everything in the Dance in the first place.

He failed to prevent it, he didn't set it up. Or do you think Aegon I set up Maegor to usurp the throne later? Or did Robert set up the Starks and Lannisters to fight each other after his death? Or did he set up his brothers to kill each other while also trying to kill his wife's children?

I don't think we would phrase it that way. In fact, I don't think we believe that Aegon I expected Maegor to butcher his grandsons or that Robert expected Ned and Tywin/Jaime, Renly and Stannis, etc. to try to kill each other as soon as he closed his eyes.

They certainly could have known, but they did not. And I think Viserys I didn't see what was coming, too. Had he seen it, he would have tried to prevent it - just as Aegon I would have - since both Aegon I and Viserys I seem to have been decent people who cared about their family and their kingdom (unlike Robert - but even he wouldn't have wanted his best friend to war against his wife and father/brother-in-law, or his brothers to kill each other while trying to kill his son).

In that sense: Otto and Alicent successfully fooled Viserys I into believing they would honor his wishes despite the fact that they disagreed with him about the succession.

[The Grey Wolf]

2 hours ago, Missing Benjen said:

Seems like I am one of the few who prefer the Greens.

Same.

[Daemon of the Blacks]

14 hours ago, Missing Benjen said:

Seems like I am one of the few who prefer the Greens. 

And that is because I honestly have to admit that, yes, I quite enjoy the Characters on their side, while I never could really warm up with Daemon or especially Rhaenyra.

 

Well they do have some enjoyable characters. 

Aemond might be a complete dullard but that's what makes him fun. He's basically joffrey riding a huge dragon and that's a lot of fun. 

Cole is quite vile but his actions makes since considering he's got a grudge and he's a strange mix of being both competent and flawed enough to drive his army to destruction. 

Alicent has quite a nasty fall from grace that's interesting to read up on. 

Daeron is pretty interesting and we see the war have a corrupting influence on it. Perhaps we see it a bit too well considering the ''sweet boy'' has more nasty moments than moments where he's a good kid. Its probably because he didn't really get a big focus but we see him involved in two sackings and a conspiracy with his nicer moments being told rather than shown. 

Lannister only became interesting once becoming Hand but then he became really interesting. 

And old Baratheon was a lot of fun to read. He seems so strangely casual, chatting to Aemond how he honestly doesn't have anything against girls. 

[Destiny Arrives]

The Blacks no doubt so many cool and interesting characters were on their side. The only green supporter i liked was Daeron a damn shame what happened to him.

Its bias i know but with people like Corlys, Rhaenys, Daemon, Jace, Addam, Alyn, the lads it was all i needed for them to get my support. A shame both leaders were so incompetent but alas such is war at times.

[Lady Anna]

The Blacks. More interesting characters, that's all. And Rhaenyra's supporters are also some of my favourite Houses.

[the Last Teague]

9 hours ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

Well they do have some enjoyable characters. 

Aemond might be a complete dullard but that's what makes him fun. He's basically joffrey riding a huge dragon and that's a lot of fun. 

Cole is quite vile but his actions makes since considering he's got a grudge and he's a strange mix of being both competent and flawed enough to drive his army to destruction. 

Alicent has quite a nasty fall from grace that's interesting to read up on. 

Daeron is pretty interesting and we see the war have a corrupting influence on it. Perhaps we see it a bit too well considering the ''sweet boy'' has more nasty moments than moments where he's a good kid. Its probably because he didn't really get a big focus but we see him involved in two sackings and a conspiracy with his nicer moments being told rather than shown. 

Lannister only became interesting once becoming Hand but then he became really interesting. 

And old Baratheon was a lot of fun to read. He seems so strangely casual, chatting to Aemond how he honestly doesn't have anything against girls. 

Agree with all.  Daeron had to grow up really fast, like the Lads (who didn't had problems starting a nasty guerilla war). Murdering the Two Traitors appeared as the only option.

Even Aegon II had some moments. I think his efforts to keep awake and active despite his terrible wounds are somewhat admirable. Of course, things were better when he was drugged.

I've mixed feelings about Marston Waters. I find him very interesting. He fought for the "bad" side, but did it the best he could, being a limited man. He saved Aegon and took Dragonstone, but saved Baela. Later he didn't get involved in the murder plot of Clubfoot (he was at Braavos). Later he was fooled into joining the secret siege, but changed his mind at time to save Aegon III. But got stabed for being too naive.

Jon Roxton is funny to my becouse heis incredibly narrow minded and straightforward. A battle? charge forward. A traitor with a dragon? Cut him in half in front of his 10 bodyguards and next get the dragon. Of course he isn't a nice person (far from it).

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, the Last Teague said:

Agree with all.  Daeron had to grow up really fast, like the Lads (who didn't had problems starting a nasty guerilla war). Murdering the Two Traitors appeared as the only option.

Certainly not. They could have actually bend the knee to the Hammer, no? They owed the entire victory at First Tumbleton to the Two Betrayers.

But even if they couldn't bring themselves to do that - actually agreeing to murder your allies is just very ugly business.

The real issue with Daeron, though, is that he actually had Bitterbridge brutally sacked.

9 minutes ago, the Last Teague said:

Even Aegon II had some moments. I think his efforts to keep awake and active despite his terrible wounds are somewhat admirable. Of course, things were better when he was drugged.

Well, a guy must be pretty bad if him not doing drugs is one of the few things one can say about him ;-).

9 minutes ago, the Last Teague said:

I've mixed feelings about Marston Waters. I find him very interesting. He fought for the "bad" side, but did it the best he could, being a limited man. He saved Aegon and took Dragonstone, but saved Baela. Later he didn't get involved in the murder plot of Clubfoot (he was at Braavos). Later he was fooled into joining the secret siege, but changed his mind at time to save Aegon III. But got stabed for being too naive.

Waters I'd not really count as a Green as much. He just agreed to hide Aegon II. That takes certainly some courage, but it doesn't make him a man with a political agenda or even opinion. He most likely did that because Lord Larys paid him to do it, not because he was some deeply loyal man.

And after they took Dragonstone he stumbled up the career ladder. Aegon II made him a Kingsguard, and suddenly he was somebody. Anyone in his position with his humble roots would have done a similar thing.

One compare him to Dunk in this regard. Dunk befriending Egg - and in a sense Maekar, too - makes him their man, but this doesn't mean Dunk really understands politics or what it means to be their man. He just is because he has made that connection.

[the Last Teague]

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Well, a guy must be pretty bad if him not doing drugs is one of the few things one can say about him ;-).

Waters I'd not really count as a Green as much. He just agreed to hide Aegon II. That takes certainly some courage, but it doesn't make him a man with a political agenda or even opinion. He most likely did that because Lord Larys paid him to do it, not because he was some deeply loyal man.

And after they took Dragonstone he stumbled up the career ladder. Aegon II made him a Kingsguard, and suddenly he was somebody. Anyone in his position with his humble roots would have done a similar thing.

One compare him to Dunk in this regard. Dunk befriending Egg - and in a sense Maekar, too - makes him their man, but this doesn't mean Dunk really understands politics or what it means to be their man. He just is because he has made that connection.

A man so badly burned and crushes as Aegon showed some steel by not spending all day with painkillers like poppy milk.

About Waters: we agree. What I find interesting is that in a world of over-ambitious people, of men of women driven by great passions or hates, he is only trying to do his duty. WIthout being especialy bright, skillfull or brave. AS you said, he was simply used by all. And the only time he tried to raise his voice, he got a dagger in the guts by a man he considered a sworn brother. As you say, he is like Duncan the Tall, but without fighting skill or that intuition that Dunk shows from time to time.

I don't think Larys paid him to do anything. Probably he get some money to cover Aegon expenses and treatment. It's difficult to say if he assembled the men who took Dragonstone using money or promises. Or if the brain behind the assault were him, Broome or the two Toms. Difficult to assert.

Marston shows some courage from time to time. But it's always "some" courage. Nothing spectacular: hiding Aegon required courage. Same happened with taking Dragonstone, or even coming back from Essos after Aegon's murder (as far as he knew, he could have been executed).

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, the Last Teague said:

A man so badly burned and crushes as Aegon showed some steel by not spending all day with painkillers like poppy milk.

Well, considering he may have found a new kick in voyeurism and wasting fortunes on over-sized statues of his dead brothers after his restoration I daresay it may have been better if he had stayed on the drugs. He may have even saved his crown that way...

It is kind of sad how he fails to understand how little power/authority he actually has among the men he is dependent on, but you get reminded what a moron/ass he is whenever he actually decides something - like burning commoners alive, deciding to continue to punish lesser lords for minor offenses while the enemy is not yet defeated instead of at least trying pursue a course of reconciliation and peace.

I mean, how stupid must you be if you don't understand that you should not provoke the enemy when there are at least two great houses amassing fresh new armies to fight against you, and you can basically only count on Borros' Stormlanders? Even if you want to crush them all - bide your time, pretend you want peace, divide ... and then conquer.

But, no, the guy is just an utter moron.

1 hour ago, the Last Teague said:

I don't think Larys paid him to do anything. Probably he get some money to cover Aegon expenses and treatment. It's difficult to say if he assembled the men who took Dragonstone using money or promises. Or if the brain behind the assault were him, Broome or the two Toms. Difficult to assert.

The two Toms were Marston's kin. They all had to get money for what they were doing. They were endangering themselves and their families by hiding Aegon II. And Waters was obviously just some random guy nobody at court really knew existed. That's why Strong could entrust the king to his care. Had he been a guy who was known at court or who had had even the slightest of connections to Aegon II Rhaenyra's people may have tracked him down.

They certainly were also hedging their bet that they could profit even more from that should Aegon II ever be restored to the throne, but they wouldn't have done something like that without getting gold - and possibly a lot of that.

The brain behind the Dragonstone thing clearly was Broome - after he was approached by the Toms - who was burning with hatred. This guy just used Aegon II to get back at Rhaenyra and Robert Quince. And the crucial thing for Aegon II to playing any role in that was him being reunited with his dragon. That made him a symbol to be used for this.

But one really has to keep in mind that you don't really need many men to take possession of a nearly empty castle, especially if you have men on the inside. Broome and the Toms knew the men who resented Rhaenyra for this or that reason, and with the loyal men in the garrison being unaware of what happened, their betrayal did work.

[Destiny Arrives]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, considering he may have found a new kick in voyeurism and wasting fortunes on over-sized statues of his dead brothers after his restoration I daresay it may have been better if he had stayed on the drugs. He may have even saved his crown that way...

It is kind of sad how he fails to understand how little power/authority he actually has among the men he is dependent on, but you get reminded what a moron/ass he is whenever he actually decides something - like burning commoners alive, deciding to continue to punish lesser lords for minor offenses while the enemy is not yet defeated instead of at least trying pursue a course of reconciliation and peace.

I mean, how stupid must you be if you don't understand that you should not provoke the enemy when there are at least two great houses amassing fresh new armies to fight against you, and you can basically only count on Borros' Stormlanders? Even if you want to crush them all - bide your time, pretend you want peace, divide ... and then conquer.

But, no, the guy is just an utter moron.

The two Toms were Marston's kin. They all had to get money for what they were doing. They were endangering themselves and their families by hiding Aegon II. And Waters was obviously just some random guy nobody at court really knew existed. That's why Strong could entrust the king to his care. Had he been a guy who was known at court or who had had even the slightest of connections to Aegon II Rhaenyra's people may have tracked him down.

They certainly were also hedging their bet that they could profit even more from that should Aegon II ever be restored to the throne, but they wouldn't have done something like that without getting gold - and possibly a lot of that.

The brain behind the Dragonstone thing clearly was Broome - after he was approached by the Toms - who was burning with hatred. This guy just used Aegon II to get back at Rhaenyra and Robert Quince. And the crucial thing for Aegon II to playing any role in that was him being reunited with his dragon. That made him a symbol to be used for this.

But one really has to keep in mind that you don't really need many men to take possession of a nearly empty castle, especially if you have men on the inside. Broome and the Toms knew the men who resented Rhaenyra for this or that reason, and with the loyal men in the garrison being unaware of what happened, their betrayal did work.

I swear all this just reminds what an utter fool he was especially when he didn't grasp what would come when his other dolt brother killed luke. Nope let me throw him a part

Then when all the enemies still at his gate oh yea what do i do kill my only valuable hostage for the other side other than the sea snake. 

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Destiny Arrives said:

I swear all this just reminds what an utter fool he was especially when he didn't grasp what would come when his other dolt brother killed luke. Nope let me throw him a part.

Then when all the enemies still at his gate oh yea what do i do kill my only valuable hostage for the other side other than the sea snake. 

Yeah, well, I could forgive him if he had just been naive in the beginning. But no, he was just stupid and cruel. I mean, I honestly believe not even Joffrey would have celebrated the murder of Tyrion - at least not if he had reason to believe that such a thing would escalate a war. Which Aegon II should have, at least after he had seen the reaction of his grandfather and mother.

But, no, Aegon II was that stupid. And he is not 12-13 but a man of twenty years. He should understand some things. But originally he doesn't even understand that what they are doing is risky, and when he faces real problems caused by the conflict he and his mother and grandfather started (the merchants and traders having issues with the Velaryon blockade) then he can just complain and take another glass of wine.

I mean, Rhaenyra also becomes a pitiful creature in FaB, a woman being cuckolded and basically publicly humiliated by her own consort, the uncle who likely was the man she truly loved (not Cole, and not Strong, and certainly not Laenor) seeking solace in food, a woman ruling against her own fellow women in succession issues due to the ridiculous advice of the men around her, and somewhat unhinged person allowing the paranoia of her advisers to undermine her own rule to no small degree. Not to mention how the deaths of her sons do affect her and cause her to make a series of mistakes.

But she is never as stupid, ignorant, and cruel as Aegon II. That guy really is the second worst king Westeros ever had. Both Maegor and Aerys II were light years better than this guy. Even Robert is a genius compared to him.

[Destiny Arrives]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, well, I could forgive him if he had just been naive in the beginning. But no, he was just stupid and cruel. I mean, I honestly believe not even Joffrey would have celebrated the murder of Tyrion - at least not if he had reason to believe that such a thing would escalate a war. Which Aegon II should have, at least after he had seen the reaction of his grandfather and mother.

But, no, Aegon II was that stupid. And he is not 12-13 but a man of twenty years. He should understand some things. But originally he doesn't even understand that what they are doing is risky, and when he faces real problems caused by the conflict he and his mother and grandfather started (the merchants and traders having issues with the Velaryon blockade) then he can just complain and take another glass of wine.

I mean, Rhaenyra also becomes a pitiful creature in FaB, a woman being cuckolded and basically publicly humiliated by her own consort, the uncle who likely was the man she truly loved (not Cole, and not Strong, and certainly not Laenor) seeking solace in food, a woman ruling against her own fellow women in succession issues due to the ridiculous advice of the men around her, and somewhat unhinged person allowing the paranoia of her advisers to undermine her own rule to no small degree. Not to mention how the deaths of her sons do affect her and cause her to make a series of mistakes.

But she is never as stupid, ignorant, and cruel as Aegon II. That guy really is the second worst king Westeros ever had. Both Maegor and Aerys II were light years better than this guy. Even Robert is a genius compared to him.

Honestly this reflects on this parents more because Alicient should have seen the idiot he is/was/would be a mother's love i guess. Rhaernyra gets no sympathy from me should have chosen a more Valyrian looking mate to save the trouble of how he other kids would like i can give jace a pass but the other two with harwin she was askign for them to be called bastard. 

[Lord Varys]

19 minutes ago, Destiny Arrives said:

Honestly this reflects on this parents more because Alicient should have seen the idiot he is/was/would be a mother's love i guess. Rhaernyra gets no sympathy from me should have chosen a more Valyrian looking mate to save the trouble of how he other kids would like i can give jace a pass but the other two with harwin she was askign for them to be called bastard. 

Rhaenyra had the example of her first cousin once removed, Princess Rhaenys, who, blessed with 'the strong seed' of House Baratheon through her mother Lady Jocelyn, gave her (presumably Valyrian-looking, we never get a proper description of Corlys Velaryon, as far as I recall right now) husband, Corlys Velaryon, two children with prototypical Valyrian looks.

If the Baratheon-Durrandon black can yield to (quite diluted, on Corlys' part) Valyrian silver-gold two times then Rhaenyra really has no reason to assume that her sons are not going to inherit her looks, regardless who their father is. Who may not have been Harwin Strong at all, considering that we don't have his looks. The only Strong whose looks we know, Lucamore Strong, was blond.

[Vaith]

On 3/2/2019 at 12:17 AM, Lord Varys said:

He failed to prevent it, he didn't set it up. Or do you think Aegon I set up Maegor to usurp the throne later? Or did Robert set up the Starks and Lannisters to fight each other after his death? Or did he set up his brothers to kill each other while also trying to kill his wife's children?

I don't think we would phrase it that way. In fact, I don't think we believe that Aegon I expected Maegor to butcher his grandsons or that Robert expected Ned and Tywin/Jaime, Renly and Stannis, etc. to try to kill each other as soon as he closed his eyes.

They certainly could have known, but they did not. And I think Viserys I didn't see what was coming, too. Had he seen it, he would have tried to prevent it - just as Aegon I would have - since both Aegon I and Viserys I seem to have been decent people who cared about their family and their kingdom (unlike Robert - but even he wouldn't have wanted his best friend to war against his wife and father/brother-in-law, or his brothers to kill each other while trying to kill his son).

In that sense: Otto and Alicent successfully fooled Viserys I into believing they would honor his wishes despite the fact that they disagreed with him about the succession.

If you’re going to make a controversial succession move, then letting your second wife have influence and have a faction of courtiers is not a great move. The war was not really an inevitability and was in large part due to Viserys seemingly disregarding the factions or thinking he could placate both of them somehow.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Vaith said:

If you’re going to make a controversial succession move, then letting your second wife have influence and have a faction of courtiers is not a great move. The war was not really an inevitability and was in large part due to Viserys seemingly disregarding the factions or thinking he could placate both of them somehow.

Yeah, because that actually could have worked had his wife and father-in-law and sons of his second wife not turned out to be such asses ... after he had closed his eyes for good.

There certainly were ways to prevent the coup, but I'm not sure there was a way aside from killing/banishing the sons to prevent a succession struggle in the future. Not in light of the rotten characters of Aegon and Aemond.

And it is not that Viserys I allowed Alicent a faction of courtiers - she just has such a faction. She was the queen, after all. Recalling Otto as Hand was stupidity, but stupidity based on the belief the man was a good friend and loyal subject who would follow the vow he swore in 105 AC rather than break it.

[Eltharion21]

8 hours ago, Vaith said:

If you’re going to make a controversial succession move, then letting your second wife have influence and have a faction of courtiers is not a great move. The war was not really an inevitability and was in large part due to Viserys seemingly disregarding the factions or thinking he could placate both of them somehow.

 

I agree with You, Viserys empowered opposing factions with his choices and not making hard decisions regarding his family, while power was concentrated in his person. That caused the resulting war soon after his death. 

Even in 114 AC when tournament in honor of wedding of Laeonor and Rhaenyra , when Ser Joffrey Lonmouth dies after duel with Ser Cole. We have this written:

"King Viserys was most wroth as well; a joyous celebration had become the occasion of grief and recrimination. It was said that Queen Alicent did not share his displeasure, however; soon after, she asked that Ser Criston Cole be made her personal protector. The coolness between the king’s wife and the king’s daughter was plain for all to see; even envoys from the Free Cities made note of it in letters sent back to Pentos, Braavos, and Old Volantis."

That is something way much above wearing different dresses, factionalism, or dislike , especially when various foreign envoys find it notable and it is 15 years even before war would start.

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

I agree with You, Viserys empowered opposing factions with his choices and not making hard decisions regarding his family, while power was concentrated in his person. That caused the resulting war soon after his death. 

Even in 114 AC when tournament in honor of wedding of Laeonor and Rhaenyra , when Ser Joffrey Lonmouth dies after duel with Ser Cole. We have this written:

"King Viserys was most wroth as well; a joyous celebration had become the occasion of grief and recrimination. It was said that Queen Alicent did not share his displeasure, however; soon after, she asked that Ser Criston Cole be made her personal protector. The coolness between the king’s wife and the king’s daughter was plain for all to see; even envoys from the Free Cities made note of it in letters sent back to Pentos, Braavos, and Old Volantis."

That is something way much above wearing different dresses, factionalism, or dislike , especially when various foreign envoys find it notable and it is 15 years even before war would start.

Do you know a way how to stop that without actually doing things that are completely immoral/unbecoming of a king in Westeros. The queen and the heir to have exalted positions at court, and that attracts flatterers and courtiers.

Sympathy and love cannot be enforced. If they are not there, then even a king is powerless.

I mean, just look at Robert's court. He could not make Ned love Jaime or vice versa, could he? He could not make his wife love his Hand. He could not make his two brothers to get along with each other and his wife and children.

Daeron II couldn't make Daemon Blackfyre and Bittersteel love him the way Bloodraven apparently did.

A king cannot prevent the development of factions at his court. He could have decided not to recall Otto as Hand, but aside from putting Alicent under house arrest or forcing his sons to become septons or eunuchs or exile them to the Wall or banish them from the country he could have done nothing to stop them from building factions.

And people not being all that close still does not mean they have to go to war. We see that a lot of Targaryens had issues with their relations without it escalating to murder and war. Visenya and Aegon despised each other in their last years, Aenys and Maegor were never truly close yet it didn't come to blows between these two, either, Jaehaerys/Alysanne and Rhaena had their issues but they never caused them to act against each other, Viserys and Daemon had trouble getting along, but Viserys never used his royal powers to actually severely punish or hurt his presumptuous little brother.

A man of that mindset who dealt with his brother the way he did certainly wouldn't have imagined that his children wouldn't find a modus vivendi, too - even after he was gone.