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Predict her future: Penny

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5 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Er, what? Penny make Tyrion bad? Please, she isn’t the mirror being held up to his privileged entitled life. He is a reprehensible person when he meets her, if anything she has marginally pulled him back from being quite so disgusting.

i also take issue saying Shae or Tysha “made” Tyrion bad. Especially Tysha

Penny is a very good person. One of the best Tyrion met. Her death, I suppose, will bring back Tyrion to his murderous cynical state. As far as we know, Tysha was not a bad person either.  But she heavily contributed to Tyrion's way of seeing things.

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17 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Penny is a very good person. One of the best Tyrion met. Her death, I suppose, will bring back Tyrion to his murderous cynical state. As far as we know, Tysha was not a bad person either.  But she heavily contributed to Tyrion's way of seeing things.

Hm. Our disagreement seems to be that I don't think tyrion has moved past his awful murderous state. He is still morally reprehensible.

I also don't think penny's death would really impact him very much

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20 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Hm. Our disagreement seems to be that I don't think tyrion has moved past his awful murderous state. He is still morally reprehensible.

I also don't think penny's death would really impact him very much

Tyrion is grey.   The only time he went to the dark side of things is when he arrowed Tywin.  Has he suffered enough to pay for that crime?  I don't know.  I hate to think an innocent like Penny has to pay for Tyrion's crime.  

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3 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Tyrion is grey.   The only time he went to the dark side of things is when he arrowed Tywin.  Has he suffered enough to pay for that crime?  I don't know.  I hate to think an innocent like Penny has to pay for Tyrion's crime.  

Didn’t you forget the slave incident in Selhorys?

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On 3/3/2019 at 8:10 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

Hm. Our disagreement seems to be that I don't think tyrion has moved past his awful murderous state. He is still morally reprehensible.

I also don't think penny's death would really impact him very much

I see you... could I say "hate" Tyrion?

I believe he will die at some point. I don't think kinslaying is just an old woman's story to frighten children. And Tyrion is the best example. He killed his father. OK, he deserved it. But from Tyrion it was pure vengeance. And no. whatever fans says, he is Tywin's son. He is exactly like him.

Tyrion is good, when being good cost him nothing, and maybe gain praises. So like most of us. But if someone crosses him, he will not forgive. And will be as "resentful" as was his father. BTW, IMO he did what he could for the Selhorys' girl. Given his own troubles. However he was quite despicable with Illyrio's slave.

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I expect that she will give Tyrion someone to care about and care for, and thus help drag him out of the dark place he has found himself in.  The fact that she seems to be in love with him will also probably have its effect as well.

I have no idea what her ultimate fate will be.  Probably whatever GRRM decides best moves Tyrion's story forward.

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On 2/28/2019 at 5:45 PM, Centurion Piso said:

Penny is not destined to be Tyrion's + 1.  She's the lifeline to redemption but Tyrion will follow his heart and burn that rope.  He can't get Tysha and Jaime out of his mind.  They will pick and fight on different sides.  One of them will die.  Perhaps Penny's role is to mourn Tyrion's death.  Somebody has to.

This is a great role for her.  A female to finally love the Imp but he chooses to be with the Lannisters instead.  The Lannisters are the bad people.  He gets roasted and Penny gets to keep his ashes in a jar. 

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Posted (edited)
On 3/4/2019 at 12:15 AM, Haus Berlin said:

II) Sister


Penny is at loss since her brother's death and maybe intends to fill the gap. Only that there were times when Tyrion would not allow himself such a sibling. In AGOT he wondered what it were like would he have a twin like Jaime has - only to be grateful for not having a look at someone like him all the time. There is a lot of self-hatred, but Penny liberates the dwarf-self Tywin oppressed and turns it into something noteworthy. Tyrion was always out for laughs rather than to frighten people the way his father deemed right. Penny gives him another option, an option more like himself. In return Tyrion might encourage a kind of love that goes beyond blood relation, if he accepts her brother's place.

 

On 3/4/2019 at 12:15 AM, Haus Berlin said:

All in all I see a bright end for our dwarf duo. Some of you compared Penny to Brienne, who is a POV character and by that open for bigger changes. I think GRRM wants us to draw that comparison, whether as contrast or as mirror we can't know at this point.

I agree with all of this. Even if I wouldn't label it as "sister" per se, I definitely don't see Penny as Tyrion's love interest or daughter just because she's a female and she's a dwarf. I definitely see her as a Brienne parallel, in the sense that for better or worse she ends up accepting who Jaime is and what he's done, and encourages him to be better.

Tyrion needs someone right now to lead him out of the darkness - the fact that she's a dwarf and a woman serves two purposes: 

  1. It shows that Tyrion's relationship with women has changed/is changing, especially after the woman at Illyrio's palace - that seemed like rock bottom for that kind of behaviour for him
  2. Her being a dwarf makes her instantly relatable to Tyrion and makes her a genuine character to him. I think he's too bitter to admit it, but I think in some ways he even envies her life in that she is a dwarf that grew up with a family that liked her.
Edited by Mat92

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On 3/3/2019 at 8:15 AM, Haus Berlin said:

Of course there is yet no true evidence for any outcome and it is bound to be a gut feeling with two books in the making. I can think of three possibilities for Penny, all of them an improvement for her's and Tyrion's personalities rather than the dark end many of you expect.

 

I) Romance


Of course the lack of sexual desire can still lead into romance. Tyrion and Tysha both did not know what they were doing, because Tysha expected bad from men and Tyrion was merely trying to help when they met. They were not expecting much and surprised by their actual potential. This changed when Jaime lied to Tyrion about Tysha's innocence and when Tywin turned Tyrion into one of Tysha's oppressors. In a twisted way the original setting was restored when Jaime told the truth and when Tywin was found with Shae. Nonetheless it seemed like the beginning of a very dark path for Tyrion, with Penny as his next victim. But instead Tyrion suppresses his impulse to force himself onto women around Penny and accepts her simple care without turning it into something else. Penny toughens up around Tyrion since this is a world full of loss and battle compared to the as ifs of the theatre world she knew before. Look again at how Tyrion described his ideal love and you can see that he is getting there after a sour mix of assumptions - good or bad - concerning his first love.

 

II) Sister


Penny is at loss since her brother's death and maybe intends to fill the gap. Only that there were times when Tyrion would not allow himself such a sibling. In AGOT he wondered what it were like would he have a twin like Jaime has - only to be grateful for not having a look at someone like him all the time. There is a lot of self-hatred, but Penny liberates the dwarf-self Tywin oppressed and turns it into something noteworthy. Tyrion was always out for laughs rather than to frighten people the way his father deemed right. Penny gives him another option, an option more like himself. In return Tyrion might encourage a kind of love that goes beyond blood relation, if he accepts her brother's place.

 

III) Daughter


GRRM makes quite a point showing us affection between those two individuals and yet stresses the lack of sexual desire. Since Penny looks very much alike Tysha you have to wonder why. Many of you rule out the possibilty that the curly girl can be indeed the Penny to Tysha's silvers and gold, because Tyrion may be too young to be her natural father. But I can still see her as a twist of Tyrion's statement that all dwarfs are bastards in their fathers eyes. Since his father turned Tyrion's wife into a whore with Jaime's backing, Tyrion is free to declare any dwarf bastard as his trueborn child. At the end Penny may even be the heir of Casterly Rock.

 

 

All in all I see a bright end for our dwarf duo. Some of you compared Penny to Brienne, who is a POV character and by that open for bigger changes. I think GRRM wants us to draw that comparison, whether as contrast or as mirror we can't know at this point.


Sorry for my English, I hope I made sense.

I like that possible parallel between Penny and Brienne--2 unlikely women reminding the entitled Lannister brothers of their well, better humanity.   Penny is a light in Tyrion's darkness.   She illuminates his internal struggle beautifully.   Last we saw Brienne she used her influence over Jamie to enlist his assistance in saving "the girl".  We know this is likely a ruse, but it does show how strongly Jamie trusts and believes in Brienne.  Sigh.   We don't know where this is going but we can hope Brienne is still Brienne and can do the right thing in this.   Last we saw Penny, Tyrion was sure she was dying, but he still rises to the occasion of his circumstances to spare thought for her.   There is a tenderness in Tyrion where Penny is concerned and I think that's even clear when he slaps her.   Something akin to shaking a person into reality.   Tyrion knows that Penny has no idea what she's into. 

Your list of possibilities is actually very concise, Haus.   And your English is still lovely to read.   I will submit that there is a kinship of broken things between Penny and Tyrion.   Seems to me she is the 1st real "little person" Tyrion has ever actually got to know.   If memory serves (coin toss) Penny is about 18 where Tyrion is mid to late 20s?   Give them say 5 to 8 years age difference.   I don't know that Penny's age is enough to make Tyrion feel paternal toward her--Tyrion has no problem being a hero in taking up the cause of women (see Ayaya --gads--even some interaction with Cersei).   I don't know that Tyrion really gets what Penny is trying to show him about himself as a dwarf, but I think he is fond of her and feels protective of her.   

I prefer this relationship without romance.   I like these people in the midst of utter chaos together--Penny shedding her naivete' and Tyrion learning that people (read dwarves) can be worthy of respect and honor and loyalty and all the things people who just like each other feel for one another.   It's not exactly Sansa or Arya and The Hound, but close...

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On 2/28/2019 at 3:37 PM, Platypus Rex said:

Penny will be murdered by Tyrion, in a last-ditch attempt by GRRM to convince his readers that Tyrion really does completely suck.  But it will do no good.  Tyrion's fans will say she had it coming.

I fear for Penny because of this reason. Tyrion seemed to be starting on a redemption arc when he met Penny, in that he began to realize that even though he's been treated unfairly, he's had advantages that other people with his condition haven't - coming from a noble house, education, and being really rich - but his last two chapters made me feel like Tyrion was headed down a full villain path. 

I worry about Penny if this is true...AAGGHHH DON'T KILL HER, GRRM! SURELY YOU MUST HAVE AT LEAST HAVE SOME OF YOUR HEART LEFT??? 

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Either:

  • Tyrion will murder Penny, which will mark not only the beginning of Tyrion's stint as a villain but the the beginning of the end of his character

Or

  • Penny will die from the pale male and/or the Battle of Meereen. Which will mark not only the beginning of Tyrion's stint as a villain but also doom his character.

Either way, Penny will die and Tyrion will be a firsthand witness. But he won't care because he only has eyes for Tysha. So Tyrion, will go to great lengths to find and hookup with Tysha. When he finds her, she'll reject him and that's the point where Tyrion will completely lose his sh-t. He'll circle down the drain of "nobody loves me" but instead of focusing his pain inwards, he's going to unleash it on the world.

One thing he and his father have in common is that they hate being laughed at but that, at the end, they will die horrible deaths and be laughed and snickered at from beyond the grave.

On 2/28/2019 at 12:00 PM, Megorova said:

I think, her character has two purposes - 1. to accompany Tyrion on his way to Meereen, and 2. to make Dany aware of the origin of her dragons (Elissa Farman stole three dragon eggs from Targaryens - sold them to the Sealord of Braavos - more than 200 years after that, the nextnextnext Sealord of Braavos gave those three dragon eggs as reward to Penny, Oppo, and Hop Bean - then somehow those eggs became owned by Illyrio - and Illyrio gave them to Dany, as her wedding gift). So if Penny will see all three of Dany's dragons, then she will realize (based on their coloring, being similar to coloring of three dragon eggs, that used to belong to Penny's family), that Dany's dragons had hatched from the same eggs, that were given to Penny by the Sealord of Braavos. And Dany already knows, that the Sealord of Braavos had attempted to marry Viserys to Arianne Martell. So it's likely, that she will want to go to Braavos, to meet this guy, and question him. After that, there's no reason to keep Penny alive.

This.

On 3/2/2019 at 8:19 PM, Great Oshiro said:

Right on.  She is the light in Tyrion's dark path.  But will he take her?  I am reminded of a line from an oldie song that goes "if you can't be with the one you love then love the one you're with."  Tyrion will sadly not take this advice.  This story revolves around the stupidity of the human heart and the bad decisions where it leads people.    Good posts though.  

And this. No, Tyrion will not take her. Penny is a plot device for Tyrion's villain arc. In the sample chapter already released for Tyrion, Penny made Tyrion so mad that he would have murdered Penny right then and there if there weren't bigger problems to deal with (i.e. the Battle of Meereen)

On 2/28/2019 at 5:45 PM, Centurion Piso said:

Penny is not destined to be Tyrion's + 1. She's the lifeline to redemption but Tyrion will follow his heart and burn that rope. He can't get Tysha and Jaime out of his mind. They will pick and fight on different sides.  One of them will die.  Perhaps Penny's role is to mourn Tyrion's death.  Somebody has to.

I can see this happening on one hand. But on the other hand? No.

The only people who mourned Tywin were Cersei and Jaime. Tommen is too young to care or he didn't really know him enough to care, Myrcella is so far removed from the situation, Tyrion sort of kinda mourned Tywin. If Kevan did mourn Tywin at all, it didn't take him long to get over it. Gemma? Meh, not really. She seemed more concerned about the survival of Tyrion and Edmure Tully than she did about the death of her brother.

People were not really sad Tywin died. If anything, they were amused or offended once they crossed paths with his body.

Tyrion on the other hand? Tyrion was already very unpopular in Westeros at the beginning of the War of the Five Kings. He will end up burning so many bridges that no one will blink an eye if he dies. Granted, if A Dream of Spring goes the way I think it will go, no one will really have time to blink an eye because things will just be THAT crazy.

In fact, I think a lot of people will be relieved when Tyrion dies. Personally, I think the Others are going to kill Tyrion after the Starks give him the boot...

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Penny is another innocent victim of the Lannisters.  It started with Bran, butcher's son, lady, and so on.  It's not out of the question to make her the valonquar.  The word is Valyrian and neutral in terms of gender.  The motive, her brother.

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Characters like Penny don't have an arc, they just fade out and the story leaves them behind. No need for a death, no need for them to have made any difference to the world.

She's at Hot Pie's level, basically. Hot Pie not only left the story, but he left his name behind as well - no longer Hot Pie, but just Boy. He's totally gone. She'll be the same, maybe.

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One can hope for Penny to have more luck and sense than the Starks.  Hopefully she'll get her revenge on the guilty Lannister.

On 3/13/2019 at 8:20 PM, Victor Newman said:

Penny is another innocent victim of the Lannisters.  It started with Bran, butcher's son, lady, and so on.  It's not out of the question to make her the valonquar.  The word is Valyrian and neutral in terms of gender.  The motive, her brother.

I don't know if she'll fade away.  Unless Tyrion dies and then she could fade into obscurity because her destiny is somewhat tied to his.

On 3/14/2019 at 12:36 AM, Back door hodor said:

Honestly as a likeable ancillary character, worst case she dies like Syrio, best case she disappears into the background and escapes the game of thrones like hot pie.

She's that opening that Tyrion has to get back into the light.  But he might choose darkness (Jaime) over the light and earn himself damnation.

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On 3/12/2019 at 7:28 PM, Plain, Simple Tailor said:

I fear for Penny because of this reason. Tyrion seemed to be starting on a redemption arc when he met Penny, in that he began to realize that even though he's been treated unfairly, he's had advantages that other people with his condition haven't - coming from a noble house, education, and being really rich - but his last two chapters made me feel like Tyrion was headed down a full villain path. 

I worry about Penny if this is true...AAGGHHH DON'T KILL HER, GRRM! SURELY YOU MUST HAVE AT LEAST HAVE SOME OF YOUR HEART LEFT??? 

Tyrion has one thing on his mind: revenge.  I would love to say Penny will snap him out of it but I seem to recall she hates Cersei.  Penny is not the kind of girl to forgive.  She tried to slice Tyrion for what Cersei did to her brother.  You know what would be cool.  If they partner together in taking down Cersei and Jaime.  

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19 minutes ago, Gabbie Roxas said:

Tyrion has one thing on his mind: revenge.  I would love to say Penny will snap him out of it but I seem to recall she hates Cersei.  Penny is not the kind of girl to forgive.  She tried to slice Tyrion for what Cersei did to her brother.  You know what would be cool.  If they partner together in taking down Cersei and Jaime.  

I know I said earlier that Penny is the equivalent of Ygritte, but she is also part of Tyrion's Odysseus parallel. Recall that Odysseus left his wife Penelope and had a serious affair with a witch (enchantress, sorceress) named Circe during his travels. In some versions of the Odysseus story, the hero collects his long-neglected wife and son and they go back to cohabit with his lover, Circe. In other versions, Odysseus escapes Circe and goes home to Penelope, never to return to Circe's island. If the "escape from Circe" plot resolution holds for ASOIAF, maybe your prediction will come true and Penny and Tyrion will team up to defeat Cersei.

GRRM is playing with that myth in Tyrion's voyage chapters, but he is also playing with the sister / brother incest motif we saw with traditional Targaryen marriages and with Cersei and Jaime. Penny wants to make it with Tyrion; he is not interested and says that kissing Penny is passionless, like kissing a sister. I suspect we are seeing a contrast with Jaime and Cersei, where brother really did sleep with sister.

Aside from they Odyssey allusions, the other interesting thing about Penny is the money connection in her name. (Penny and Groat are both names of coins.) I would love it if Penny ends up having a connection to the still-mysterious subplot involving the Iron Bank of Braavos. Maybe she is a secret agent version of Tycho Nestoris, sent out to protect the interests of the bank as Tyrion continues to sign IOUs all over the planet.

Of course, the Penny name could also connect her to Ser Arlan of Pennytree, the mentor of Dunk in the Dunk and Egg stories. I think Ser Arlan represents the Old Gods or the First Men. His selection and care and training of Dunk is like a blessing from nature and magic, bestowing power on the chosen one. (I suspect both Dunk and Tyrion are dragonseeds -- secret Targs.) The Pennytree marks an entrance to the Otherworld inhabited by gods, and can be entered only by chosen mortals. We see Brienne contact Jaime at Pennytree. I suspect they are able to "enter" this portal because they are members of the Kings Guard / Rainbow Guard. Maybe Targs and kings guards have the mojo that allows them to mingle with the gods.

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On 3/13/2019 at 2:07 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Either:

  • Tyrion will murder Penny, which will mark not only the beginning of Tyrion's stint as a villain but the the beginning of the end of his character

Or

  • Penny will die from the pale male and/or the Battle of Meereen. Which will mark not only the beginning of Tyrion's stint as a villain but also doom his character.

Either way, Penny will die and Tyrion will be a firsthand witness. But he won't care because he only has eyes for Tysha. So Tyrion, will go to great lengths to find and hookup with Tysha. When he finds her, she'll reject him and that's the point where Tyrion will completely lose his sh-t. He'll circle down the drain of "nobody loves me" but instead of focusing his pain inwards, he's going to unleash it on the world.

One thing he and his father have in common is that they hate being laughed at but that, at the end, they will die horrible deaths and be laughed and snickered at from beyond the grave.

This.

And this. No, Tyrion will not take her. Penny is a plot device for Tyrion's villain arc. In the sample chapter already released for Tyrion, Penny made Tyrion so mad that he would have murdered Penny right then and there if there weren't bigger problems to deal with (i.e. the Battle of Meereen)

I can see this happening on one hand. But on the other hand? No.

The only people who mourned Tywin were Cersei and Jaime. Tommen is too young to care or he didn't really know him enough to care, Myrcella is so far removed from the situation, Tyrion sort of kinda mourned Tywin. If Kevan did mourn Tywin at all, it didn't take him long to get over it. Gemma? Meh, not really. She seemed more concerned about the survival of Tyrion and Edmure Tully than she did about the death of her brother.

People were not really sad Tywin died. If anything, they were amused or offended once they crossed paths with his body.

Tyrion on the other hand? Tyrion was already very unpopular in Westeros at the beginning of the War of the Five Kings. He will end up burning so many bridges that no one will blink an eye if he dies. Granted, if A Dream of Spring goes the way I think it will go, no one will really have time to blink an eye because things will just be THAT crazy.

In fact, I think a lot of people will be relieved when Tyrion dies. Personally, I think the Others are going to kill Tyrion after the Starks give him the boot...

Penny will care.  She's given her heart to him.  

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I think Penny will die, and as she is dying she'll tell Tyrion she loves him and that she hopes he finds happiness, that he learns to believe himself, or something similar. Since she says these things while she's dying, Tyrion will know she's telling the truth. He'll then realize that not one but two women have fallen in love with him, and that he might have something else to live for other than revenge. I think this will lead him to wanting to make the world better for the Tysha's and Penny's of the world, which leads him to become a devoted Danaerys follower. 

Also, there's no way Penny is Tyrion's daughter. Tyrion was born in 273, Penny sometime between 281-283. That would mean Tyrion was at most 10 years old when she was born, and she know he didn't meet Tysha until he was 13. 

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