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The Others "inside" man

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9 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Glass houses, I know truth isn't a popularity contest and measuring self-worth by social media likes is not healthy, but since decided to cross-thread harass me, and you brought it up, you have 6 "likes and thanks" on your 2 most recent pages of comments, and I have 17, so if I am not taken seriously, you are taken a 1/3rd as seriously as I am. (I know people are just going to upvote you for me saying this). 

Let's keep things civil from now on.

Yikes.  Weeeeeeel I guess you told me. I disagree with some of your comments.  Thanks for letting me know your truth.

See how easy that was.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

 I disagree with some of your comments. 

We are all here for discussion and debate and to learn more about the books, to that end the free flow of ideas and reasonable disagreement should be encouraged, not suppressed.  Let a person's ideas and theories stand on their own merits (or lack thereof), don't try to poison the well by posting ad hominems like "you are unpopular and you are a crybaby and you are full of shit and nobody likes your ideas"

 

Bonus connection between Braavos and the Others.  The courtesans of Braavos:

The Black Pearl, Bellegere Otherys.  belliger means "war bringing" and Otherys is Others.  Black pearl references the object that causes the eclipse of the sun during the Long Night.  "was black as a pot of ink"  "She's descended from the dragons" and " was a captain and a pirate queen"  The name and job of Black Pearl is hereditary.  Mother was Bellonara, Bellonarius was the Roman goddess of war, sister to Mars.  (Black Pearl, black as a pot of ink, associated with the Others, and war, and ships, and dragons (dragons descended from the second moon), and war and the planet Mars, I think it is the Lion of Night/Shadow/Stranger)

The Merling Queen--the Merling King is one of the gods of death in the HoBW, so she is the queen of the god of death.  "was never seen without her Mermaids, four young maidens in the blush of their first flowering who held her train and did her hair"  Maybe parallels the Thing that Came in the Night (the Great Other), with 4 servants shambling behind.  If one of them dies she replaces them.

The Moonshadow--also references the eclipse of the Long Night.  Wears only white and silver, like an Other.

The Nightingale-- Westeros has names for the times of night: "The hour of the owl, the hour of the wolf, the hour of the nightingale," nightingale means "night song or night songstress," Pate hears the nightingale several times before he dies.

Bryce Caron of Nightsong, his sigil is the Nightingale, He became the head of the House after his father, mother, brother, and all his sisters succumbed to a chill.  And he is appointed to Renly's rainbow guard, and I think Kingsguards are a metaphor for the Others (see LmL)

The Daughter of the Dusk--children of night ??

The Poetess "always had a book to hand"  ??

The Veiled Lady  "was beautiful, though only those she took as lovers ever saw her face."

 

Women of the night, associated with death, war, the Others, night songs, and eclipses.

Help me out with these last three, I can't think of anything.

Edited by By Odin's Beard

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On 3/5/2019 at 11:07 AM, rotting sea cow said:

Varys? Hell no. Varys is playing a very human game. Of course it is possible that once Aegon takes the IT, they will ignore the threat in the North, because they have their hands full in other conflicts.

If you want to look for an "insider" you need to look for someone who would sell humanity for power. There is only one character that fits and even that is contentious.

 

You need to provide facts/quotes from the books to back your claim up. 

From the conversation between illyrio and Varys in games. We hear them speak about setting the wolf's and the lions on each other. This makes the riverlands the war zone. Aegon land in the stormlands. So the most logical to ease Aegons landing would be to set Highgarden against Storms End with for example the lannisters on The stormlands side to make the war open and long. 

Now we have a situation with the entire reach armies unspent and siding with the current king , the opposite side of Aegon.

This was far from paving the way for Aegon. 

Also letting Stannis take KL would prolong the war and force more casualties for Tywin and Mace.

Stannis is little loved. Even if he somehow would be able to keep KL from being taken by Tywin it would be very easy for Aegon to find allies against him. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, By Odin's Beard said:

We are all here for discussion and debate and to learn more about the books, to that end the free flow of ideas and reasonable disagreement should be encouraged, not suppressed.  Let a person's ideas and theories stand on their own merits (or lack thereof), don't try to poison the well by posting ad hominems like "you are unpopular and you are a crybaby and you are full of shit and nobody likes your ideas"

I apologize for hurting your feelings. Please except my apology and continue sharing your thoughts and ideas.

I personally am of the opinion that the Others also called white walkers are not being aided by a human being.

Unless of course Bran's coma dream is symbolism for the Wizard of Oz. Perhaps Mel's Great Other is a fraud like Dorthy's wizard.

A Game of Thrones - Bran III    North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks./

Very few people in Westeros believe the Others exist. Sam does because he saw one and killed it or rather Sam stabbed what is affectionately dubbed Mr. Puddles (by another long gone poster) with obsidian.

The free folk and the wildlings were relatively comfortable living there lives until something scared them. Then the different varying groups started moving south toward the Wall.

In the below quote Jon and Tormund have a chat about their foe, the Others.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII   The wildling rubbed his mouth. "Not here," he mumbled, "not this side o' your Wall." The old man glanced uneasily toward the trees in their white mantles. "They're never far, you know. They won't come out by day, not when that old sun's shining, but don't think that means they went away. Shadows never go away. Might be you don't see them, but they're always clinging to your heels."   "Did they trouble you on your way south?"/

Tormund also talks about fighting the dead (wights) and questions how to kill the Others. Tormund through martin used different words to describe the Others.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII     You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?"/

What does this reader, me, know so far? I don't know if the Others bring the cold or whether the cold brings the Others. Tormund says they (Others and wights) don't come out during the day light. Tormund also implies the Others are the masters of the wights.

In the GoT book prologue introduction of the Others they attack at dusk. In Bran's DwD chapter the wights attack at dusk. Coldhands tells Bran & companions they must get into the cave because he can feel an attack coming.

Martin has written and is writing a story. Therefore the majority of the time when I am discussing happenings in the books I have enough material to keep me busy trying to figure out what martin has written.

Sure, no doubt martin has used his life experience, his education and his interest in European history to write his story.  As I expressed earlier in this thread, martin's comment about "sidhe like" is actually kinda sorta based on an Irish word which has meaning in Irish culture ---  Sidhe are Irish earthen mounds, which in Irish folklore and mythology are believed to be the home of the Aos Sí (the people of the mounds).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Clegane'sPup

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On 3/5/2019 at 7:49 PM, The Mother of The Others said:

Littlefinger did the most damage and was the most inside.   He ended the Starks, as far as anyone but us knows.  So that'd be a big checked box from the Others' perspective.   He ruined the readiness of the realm to face an outside threat, kept them from laying aside grain for the winter, the war destroyed many septs and unraveled the people's confidence in the crown, divided regions with the memory of recent atrocities,  

If Pete is unconnected with the Others, then he has outperformed any 'Insider' the Others may have.

He did a lot of damage to the Starks true. But got no connection to blue/ice and magic. Varys got both. Varys is lying about his intention  for Aegon, probably just using Illyrio and his money. Little Littlefinger is lying about everything for the purpose of thriving on chaos.

Please provide facts/quotes from the books connecting Petyr to the Others.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Gramse said:

Please provide facts/quotes from the books connecting Petyr to the Others

Ah, we've come to that awkward moment when I must gently break it to you that I'm not really "one of those."       Luckily, evidence is not wanted here by either of us because the ideal truth about Petyr is he's human-aligned.  He's the title character of sorts, by virtue of being George's virtuoso, the finest Player of the Game of Thrones, the Beethoven-ish composer of this Song if you will, and he should be human at heart because it's the story of human nature driving politicians to surf the waves of chaos, providing that wonderful illusion that we can hope to own the chaos and come out on top.  Until, that is, he encounters the Others and senses they truly are the chaos.  Then we may see him fall off his surfboard, or perhaps Pete will be the only one of us capable of dealing with the oncoming wave of doom at the reaction speed required!   

So I'd be disappointed if he were the Other's inside man.   What I'm pointing out is he makes this topic look absurd because his efforts render any Inside Man unneeded.  Varys, if he's a tool of the Others, really needs to step up his game to become relevant, which is why I suggest offering up the whole population of KL to the Others, horror genre style, or letting Qyburn open up a second front there for the Dead Invasion by letting Robert Strong propagate more of his ilk, like by having everyone he kills rise again, etc.

Ironically, I can see a synthesis of our wish lists.  You have Varys betraying Aegon.  Fine.  I'd like to have Petyr swoop in with an army and a wife for Aegon in that low moment of need after Aegon has been left twisting in the wind.  Pete's play could be to turn things around and best Varys once and for all, to become Aegon's Rebound Whisperer /advisor / father figure / power behind the throne when Varys is outed as antihuman and Griff is revealed to be oddly motivated and diseased.   Then, Sansa fans.   Then.  AFTER she's ridden Pete's...coattails...back into the throneroom scene in a big way, that's when your girl has my blessing to take him down.   

Edited by The Mother of The Others

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On 3/1/2019 at 3:43 AM, The Transporter said:

The "traitor" is not Varys.  It's the Starks.  This is a song of ice and fire.  The Starks are ice.  

A well-meaning Stark already caused trouble at the wall (Jon).  Robb ignorantly marched the most able bodied among the north to the south to rescue his family.  Eddard executed the man with the right message (Gared) of warning.  So if the Others have an agent working for them, it's the Starks.  They don't know it yet.  They have so far been acting emotionally and ignorantly but their actions are hurting Westeros.

The human who is acting out of fear and attachment can cause more harm than the outright villain like Ramsay.  The Starks would have divided the kingdom if they had gotten their way.  Roose Bolton, Walder Frey, and Tywin Lannister stopped them from dividing the nation.  A whole nation rather than one fragmented is better able to handle war.  Supporting Roose Bolton's leadership of the north is more beneficial.  Stannis and Jon's war against the Boltons will hurt more than help.  It's better for Team Stannis and Jon to lose quickly.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Barbrey Dustin said:

Roose Bolton, Walder Frey, and Tywin Lannister stopped them from dividing the nation. 

Abso-fucking-lutely! 

Three cheers for Westeros’ heroic trifecta!

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

/s

 

 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Abso-fucking-lutely! 

Three cheers for Westeros’ heroic trifecta!

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

/s

 

 

A serial rapist, a pedophile, and a psychotic mass murderer who has absolutely no problem with having a 14 year old gang raped for shits and giggles

Are Heroes ladies and gentlemen

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Great day in da mornin' ya'll need to go watch Christopher Robin.

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This anti stark nonsense is so bloody juvenile. Not every story had to be some weirdo teenage anti heroic cult that only appeals to 15 year old goths still coming to terms with their sexuality.

yes the Stark relationship with winter is complex and they have something of a checkered past but they are NOT the proteges of the others who are obviously representation of the cold. They are th barrier to the take over.

 

Now what do we KNOW.

1. Craster sacrifices male children to become the Others. Whether he has a choice in the matter is unclear, but as Mormant says he serves crueler gods. So here we have a person KNOWN to serve the others. Senior members of the NW and the rangers knew of this association. Now it is not clear what the religious elements are of this sacrifice to the others is but clearly there is an association

2. Repeatedly through the story we get references to"ice eyes" and these are associated with a sort of psychopathic cruelty. Sort of inhuman. Both Roose and Ramsay Bolton have these ice eyes and must be the FIRST candidates you seek for people who serve the Others. Roose has his weird obsession with leeches, and seems to have lost quite a few sons. There is something a little Craster like in his behaviour and lack of care for his sons.

3. Now SOME Starks have had this characteristic ie Brandon ice eyes and we can perhaps assume that his mother of grandmother was a Bolton.

 

As for other possible allies of the Others it is harder to guess, although, lady Dustin, Little finger and Euron are all potential.

 

Varys is NOT a supporter of the others. he is so bloody obviously a Targ that it should not need a comment. So too is illyrio. They are the mortal enemies of the ice people.  Varys i feel is the only genuinely honest guy in Westeros. He is committed to improving the social order. He does it "for the children" and is certainly NOT in the Others camp. Pick up the clues. the REAL Varys is to be found not in his public persona but in his private rooms where unseen by others he lives the austere life of a monk.

 

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