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mormont

UK Politics: Time Marches On

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And yet - I just don't feel comfortable about ignoring a referendum result.

Explain how a third referendum ignores the second referendum result? By default the second referendum ignored the first result, so what is the difference?

I cannot fathom how people thing having another vote is less democratic rather than more, as is the case.

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But I won't be joining the throngs of the middleclass in their mostly polite marching this time. 

Yes, because only the polite middle-class have a problem with Brexit :rolleyes:

 

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You’re hilarious, musically they’re an awful band, you’d probably work that out for yourself if you weren’t too busy masturbating over the works of Lenin and Trotsky.For everyone they influenced there’s an equal number of people who think they were complete horseshit.

Off-topic, but the Sex Pistols are the most important act in the actual punk canon, hugely influential and there is a strong reason they are remembered 40 years on. Musically they weren't the most accomplished (although the rhythm section was tight, and didn't get much love because everyone was talking about Lydon and Vicious), but y'know, that was the whole point of punk. If you sound polished and smooth, you're not doing it right, something some of the so-called later American, so-called "punk bands" didn't get.

But in terms of actual music quality and quantity, they were probably more important for who they influenced rather than their own small canon: Joy Division took the punk ethos and melded it to other influences to create something far more musically accomplished and impressive (even not counting their transition into New Order).

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The case was 3 weeks ago, the Court rules that if the ref had been legally binding it could be voided for illegality. Because it was advisory the court could not void it. It was all over the news and it was raised in the House of Commons. 

Yup, just another one of the fucking massive stories that's been completely buried under the shitstorm of Tory infighting and posturing.

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“You say that the public doesn’t want the May deal but you want a referendum on the May deal versus Remain. So you’re rigging the referendum from the start by choosing the most unpopular Brexit option!”

The most unpopular option among MPs, yes, but not necessarily among the general public. No Deal has been taken off the table, it would be ruinous to the country and Parliament has acknowledged that, so in a second referendum it will not be present. So the option is May's deal, some other deal which no-one has come up with yet, and Remain (or perhaps Remain and Reform).

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3 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Explain how a third referendum ignores the second referendum result? By default the second referendum ignored the first result, so what is the difference?

I cannot fathom how people thing having another vote is less democratic rather than more, as is the case.

Yeah I'm super confused by the logic. Having another referendum at this point isn't ignoring the result of the last one. You've had a change in PM, a general election and two years of major uncertainty resulting in parliamentary grid lock where no single approach has majority support and the government losing major votes on the floor of Parliament by historic margins all as a result of the referendum. Ignoring the last one would have seen none of this.

If Parliament was capable of picking a path forward then this argument would hold more weight, but when Parliament is incapable of action it's entirely appropriate for the people to decide the way forward.

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6 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Yup, just another one of the fucking massive stories that's been completely buried under the shitstorm of Tory infighting and posturing.

I was probably out of the country at the time, but I really cannot find a single news story online about this. Can you post a link? 
 

7 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The most unpopular option among MPs, yes, but not necessarily among the general public.

See the Yougov link I posted above.

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Just now, karaddin said:

Yeah I'm super confused by the logic. Having another referendum at this point isn't ignoring the result of the last one. You've had a change in PM, a general election and two years of major uncertainty resulting in parliamentary grid lock where no single approach has majority support and the government losing major votes on the floor of Parliament by historic margins all as a result of the referendum. Ignoring the last one would have seen none of this.

If Parliament was capable of picking a path forward then this argument would hold more weight, but when Parliament is incapable of action it's entirely appropriate for the people to decide the way forward.

I think one of the major issues is that the choices offered are not really delivering on the first vote. May's deal is pretty bad for a lot of people and many view it as not actually leaving the EU if the backstop is deemed to be permanent ( actually this is far less the case now as I've read a few things that suggest that it would be easier to leave the backstop than was initially thought after Mays talks) and just remaining.

The majority of Leave voters would be ok with No Deal and feel that many of the scare stories surrounding it have been used to keep us all in the EU 

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1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

I think one of the major issues is that the choices offered are not really delivering on the first vote. May's deal is pretty bad for a lot of people and many view it as not actually leaving the EU if the backstop is deemed to be permanent ( actually this is far less the case now as I've read a few things that suggest that it would be easier to leave the backstop than was initially thought after Mays talks) and just remaining.

The first vote was so vague that it is effectively undeliverable, so it's really a moot point. We cannot "leave the EU" without knowing what "leave" means and if "leave" is far more dangerous to the UK than previously thought. Further clarification on this point is therefore advisable before the government does anything that cannot be reversed for years or generations.

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The majority of Leave voters would be ok with No Deal and feel that many of the scare stories surrounding it have been used to keep us all in the EU

 

Yes. They are wrong, but if so they can put it to a public vote and if the majority of the turkeys vote for Christmas, so be it.

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^ That. If the public truly supports No Deal in a way that is quantifiable, then that should be delivered. But you don't have a mandate for that based on the shit show of the last referendum (thanks Dave), the only things that did have a mandate from the referendum are impossible to deliver.

So you either pick a way out anyway despite the clear mandate for a specific path, or you go back to the people. The government has been attempting to do the first, and it is perfectly entitled to, but it has now proven incapable of picking a path. At this point that's a very solid justification for another referendum, especially when a general election can't resolve the problem - Labor would be no more able to deliver an advantageous Brexit even in the highly unlikely scenario that they had a clean majority and 100% party discipline because the EU simply isn't going to sell out it's continuing members for the benefit of the UK.

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2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

You say that the public doesn’t want the May deal but you want a referendum on the May deal versus Remain. So you’re rigging the referendum from the start by choosing the most unpopular Brexit option!”

What else is there? Unicorns? 

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6 hours ago, Nevarfeather said:

So who's going to the march in London on the 23rd?
 

I will be there with Mrs and Little Miss Varys. First time any of us would have protested anything. Enough of this crap.

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40 minutes ago, karaddin said:

^ That. If the public truly supports No Deal in a way that is quantifiable, then that should be delivered. But you don't have a mandate for that based on the shit show of the last referendum (thanks Dave), the only things that did have a mandate from the referendum are impossible to deliver..

If it turns out that delivering on Brexit is impossible then yes the whole thing should be cancelled. That won’t be the end of it however 

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2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I don't think that is true.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/03/12/deal-no-deal-or-delay-what-public-thinks

I think right now the most popular option for most people just seems to be to delay the vote. May's deal seems to be universally disliked on both sides.

The overwhelming majority of Leave voters would rather just go for a No Deal, where as a huge majority of Remainers would rather a delay. 

It's not loved, but a lot of people view it as second-best.  

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5 hours ago, Spockydog said:

There is zero chance of us not revoking if the extension gets vetoed.

I think it would be very right.  Probably in the region of 300 - 315 votes on each side.

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1 hour ago, karaddin said:

Yeah I'm super confused by the logic. Having another referendum at this point isn't ignoring the result of the last one. You've had a change in PM, a general election and two years of major uncertainty resulting in parliamentary grid lock where no single approach has majority support and the government losing major votes on the floor of Parliament by historic margins all as a result of the referendum. Ignoring the last one would have seen none of this.

If Parliament was capable of picking a path forward then this argument would hold more weight, but when Parliament is incapable of action it's entirely appropriate for the people to decide the way forward.

I get all the arguments for a second referendum - I agree with most of them. But I can see how people voted leave would be angry. We were asked a question - it could not have been handled more incompetently - but it was answered. It's going to take some explaining if the result is ignored. I think it can be explained - but I don’t trust these politicians to do it.

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The point of a representative democracy is that we the people elect one amongst us to represent us in Parliament. 

Referendums are not the basis of our type of democracy.  Scrap the first one as it was a complete clusterfuck, ditch the thought of having a second one and get your elected representatives to do their damn job. 

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1 hour ago, maarsen said:

The point of a representative democracy is that we the people elect one amongst us to represent us in Parliament. 

Referendums are not the basis of our type of democracy.  Scrap the first one as it was a complete clusterfuck, ditch the thought of having a second one and get your elected representatives to do their damn job. 

That might work if the politicians were a true representation of the electorate - but they seem hopelessly out of touch, clueless and detached.

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3 hours ago, Mosi Mynn said:

I get all the arguments for a second referendum - I agree with most of them. But I can see how people voted leave would be angry.

Well, if they're upset, they can campaign and vote for Leave.

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5 minutes ago, mormont said:

Well, if they're upset, they can campaign and vote for Leave.

Why would they bother ?

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5 hours ago, Heartofice said:

The majority of Leave voters would be ok with No Deal and feel that many of the scare stories surrounding it have been used to keep us all in the EU 

Terrifying, isn't it. Enough to make you despair of democracy.

My motive for going on the march, as on the last one, is mostly to say "not in my name" and to be counted. I remember before the last march that there was a lot of rhetoric about "a tiny metropolitan elite" and how most Remainers were reconciled and fine with Brexit. After the march there was suddenly a lot less of that nonsense.

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10 minutes ago, A wilding said:

Terrifying, isn't it. Enough to make you despair of democracy.

My motive for going on the march, as on the last one, is mostly to say "not in my name" and to be counted. I remember before the last march that there was a lot of rhetoric about "a tiny metropolitan elite" and how most Remainers were reconciled and fine with Brexit. After the march there was suddenly a lot less of that nonsense.

Well to be fair a large portion of the stories constantly pumped out by the media about food shortages, medicine shortages etc have all been total nonsense. So the scare tactics are real. If you want to convince people that the media isn’t trying to thwart Brexit then maybe they should do a better job.

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7 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I'll be interested in what happens if May moves on the two red lines which correlate directly with the main reasons people voted for Brexit: Immigration and sovereignty. If a deal is agreed on that doesn't address those issues, and gets put to some sort of referendum.. well.. that will be interesting.

Running against what in a referendum; No-deal or Remain?

Anyway, this whole excercise should have taught the public a basic rule, you cannot enjoy better status outside a club than inside. But then again, there are so many morons (sorry, but they just are), who believe that stab in the back myth of Brexit could have been so wondful if it wasn't for the EU being unreasonably punitive for not really caring about cakeism/unicornism or whatever nonsense BoZo and those other lackwits campaigned for, and those pesky internal saboteurs.

7 hours ago, Mentat said:

A referendum to break the deadlock doesn't seem to me like something Parliament wants right now. If it was proposed to the EU they'd definitely grant the UK as much time as they needed to see it through.

Remains to be seen what happens next week. If May's deal goes 0/3, and a participation in the EU elections becomes unavoidable anyway, the debate might very well pick up a different dynamic.

58 minutes ago, Mosi Mynn said:

That might work if the politicians were a true representation of the electorate - but they seem hopelessly out of touch, clueless and detached.

I thought you said they aren true representatives of their constituencies.

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Yes if there is a ref on a deal which doesn’t deal with immigration or sovereignty up against remain as the other option then I’m not sure why any Leave voter would bother

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