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Ckram

A quick take on Lightbringer

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Posted (edited)

It just occured to me yesterday.

I've searched if it has been proposed before and, even thought parts of this theory are all over the internet, I didn't manage to find someone that assembled those elements this way.

Premise #1: Lightbringer is a mythical sword forged by the legendary Azor Ahai.
Argument #1: "Sorcery is a sword without a hilt".
Conclusion #1: Maybe Lightbringer is not an actual sword, but a form of sorcery.

Premise #2: "When Azor Ahai plunged Lightbringer "into water to temper the steel it burst asunder."
Argument #2: "... when the greenseers tried to bring the hammer of the waters down upon the Neck."
Conclusion #2: Assuming CoTF cast this spell upon the Neck during Long Night (we are not told when it did happen), this previously proven functional sorcery (by the "Arm of Dorne" event) was shattered by something (Others' countermagic, presumably).

Premise #3: "Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast's red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split."
Arguments #3: "'Him of Many Faces.' [...] 'And many names,' the kindly man had said. 'In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger.'"
Conclusion #3: After the failed Hammer, the sorcery was cast directly upon the Others (or upon an individual Other that was duly captured), but, again, it shatters.

Premise #4: "'Nissa Nissa [...] bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say [...] her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel [...] the Red Sword of Heroes."
Argument #4: "This is bloodmagic, lady. Only death may pay for life."
Conclusion #4: Lightbringer, "the red magic of heroes", only works against the Others though life-death bargain / sacrifice of innocents.

That's it. Hope it is of any value/help.

Edited by Ckram

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I think the Arm of Dorne event was before the Long Night, since it was the Children's attempt to stem the tide of First Men coming over to Westeros, and the Long Night ended with an alliance between the two, much later. That's if you actually want to believe accounts of such ancient history, especially in their timeliness. 

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21 minutes ago, 2uenten said:

I think the Arm of Dorne event was before the Long Night

We don't disagree here.

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1 minute ago, Ckram said:

We don't disagree here.

Oh, right, mistook The Neck for The Arm I guess. 

 

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9 hours ago, Ckram said:

Premise #1: Lightbringer is a mythical sword forged by the legendary Azor Ahai.
Argument #1: "Sorcery is a sword without a hilt".
Conclusion #1: Maybe Lightbringer is not an actual sword, but a form of sorcery. 

Sounds very possible. I've wondered the same about original Ice.

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In my opinion, Lightbringer is an actual sword, and that sword is Dawn of Daynes. So, most likely, Azor Ahai is founder of House Dayne (he originated in Asshai, then traveled with his people thru Essos and established Valyria, and then in Dorne he build Starfall (which explains, why some Daynes had purple eyes, like Valyrians, even though GRRM had specifically said, that Daynes are not Valyrians. It's possible, that Daynes and Valyrians had common ancestor, and that's first Azor Ahai)). Which means, that Jon Snow, who will become new Azor Ahai, is a descendant of first Azor Ahai (because if Jon is Rhaegar's son, then he is 1/8 Dayne, thru wife of King Maekar and mother of Aegon V, Dyanna Dayne). Lightbringer in Latin is "lucifer", it's either a fallen angel (Satan), or the "morning star" planet Venus. Though in some sources Jesus was also referred to as lucifer/lightbringer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

Jon is a parallel to Jesus and Agnus Dei (Lamb of God).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamb_of_God

Recently I have read GRRM's comment, here's link to it:

Based on what GRRM said, it could be, that, even though the fight with three Kingsguards happened at the Tower of Joy, Lyanna wasn't there. So it's possible, that Lyanna gave birth to her child at some other place.

Untill this moment I thought, that Jon was only conceived at Starfall (which connects him to sword Dawn (which was forged from a heart of a fallen star, and later Starfall was build on the crash site, where that "star" has fallen), and the prophecy about new Azor Ahai). But it seems possible, that Jon was not only conceived at Starfall, but also was born there. This also explains how Wylla from Starfall became little Jon's wet nurse.

There's too many elements in the books, that point out to Jon as new Azor Ahai, for this to be just a red herring. And Jon's possible connection to Starfall and Daynes makes it obvious, that Lightbringer is an actual sword, not Dany's dragons, not some form of magic, not something metaphorical, it's a sword - Dawn of Daynes.

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Posted (edited)

@Springwatch

Yeah, I know people have thought about that before. However, I think it's more 'plausible' than 'possible'. Since obsidian works just fine against the Others, I don't know why people would have to rely on some other cryptic mystical weapon in order to defeat them.

@Megorova

I don't who would Azor Ahai Reborn be. However, AAR would have to be more than one person if the interpretation I proposed was somehow correct.

Edited by Ckram

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54 minutes ago, Ckram said:

However, AAR would have to be more than one person if the interpretation I proposed was somehow correct.

I agree, that AAR is three people - Dany, Rhaego and Jon, three heads of the dragon, that is a parallel to the Biblical Holy Trinity (only with the Mother, instead of the Father). Though, out of three of them, only one will be wielding Lightbringer, and that is Jon. Could be, that eventually Dany will also became a warrior. But in this case, most likely, her sword will be Darksister. GRRM said, that when Bloodraven went to The Wall, he took Darksister with him. I think, that it was Shiera, who binded Bloodraven to the Weirwood. They could be GRRM's parallels to wizard Merlin and his lover Nimue, The Lady of the Lake, that, acording to some sources, was the one, who gave Excalibur to King Arthur. So Shiera, who is, most likely, shadowbinder Quaithe, took Darksister from Bloodraven, when she left him in that cave, and later she may give this sword to Dany. But Darksister is not Lightbringer. It's Dawn. Most likely.

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1 hour ago, Ckram said:

@Springwatch

Yeah, I know people have thought about that before. However, I think it's more 'plausible' than 'possible'. Since obsidian works just fine against the Others, I don't know why people would have to rely on some other cryptic mystical weapon in order to defeat them.

Seriously confused now. Not sure of the nuance between plausible and possible. And after that I lost track of which sword we're talking about.

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@Springwatch

Plausible = "I think it will not gonna happen, but it would work with the plot". Possible = "I think there's a chance of happening".

In the final part, I was saying "why would they need lightbringer (magical sword/sorcery/dragonfire) to defeat the others, if obsidian does the job just fine?"

@Rose of Red Lake

What led you to assume so?

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16 hours ago, Ckram said:

It just occured to me yesterday.

I've searched if it has been proposed before and, even thought parts of this theory are all over the internet, I didn't manage to find someone that assembled those elements this way.

Premise #1: Lightbringer is a mythical sword forged by the legendary Azor Ahai.
Argument #1: "Sorcery is a sword without a hilt".
Conclusion #1: Maybe Lightbringer is not an actual sword, but a form of sorcery.

Premise #2: "When Azor Ahai plunged Lightbringer "into water to temper the steel it burst asunder."
Argument #2: "... when the greenseers tried to bring the hammer of the waters down upon the Neck."
Conclusion #2: Assuming CoTF cast this spell upon the Neck during Long Night (we are not told when it did happen), this previously proven functional sorcery (by the "Arm of Dorne" event) was shattered by something (Others' countermagic, presumably).

Premise #3: "Azor Ahai captured a lion, to temper the blade by plunging it through the beast's red heart, but once more the steel shattered and split."
Arguments #3: "'Him of Many Faces.' [...] 'And many names,' the kindly man had said. 'In Qohor he is the Black Goat, in Yi Ti the Lion of Night, in Westeros the Stranger.'"
Conclusion #3: After the failed Hammer, the sorcery was cast directly upon the Others (or upon an individual Other that was duly captured), but, again, it shatters.

Premise #4: "'Nissa Nissa [...] bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say [...] her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel [...] the Red Sword of Heroes."
Argument #4: "This is bloodmagic, lady. Only death may pay for life."
Conclusion #4: Lightbringer, "the red magic of heroes", only works against the Others though life-death bargain / sacrifice of innocents.

That's it. Hope it is of any value/help.

LB is not and has never been real. It is a myth, based on the events of the long night and the last hero after the story traveled untold thousands of leagues east, changing slightly with each retelling and translation. 
The purpose of it isn't to have a literal object that is reforged or remade. It is a plot device to describe characters and their journey, specifically Jon, Dany and Bran

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4 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It is a plot device to describe characters and their journey, specifically Jon, Dany and Bran

Would you mind to elaborate this part?

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18 minutes ago, Ckram said:

What led you to assume so?

These quotes:

  • “When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world.” - Daenerys, ADWD
  • “In Volantis, thousands of slaves and freedmen crowd the temple plaza every night to hear Benerro shriek of bleeding stars and a sword of fire that will cleanse the world. He has been preaching that Volantis will surely burn if the triarchs take up arms against the silver queen.” - Tyrion, ADWD

The comet is also a major clue. Smaug in the Hobbit is first seen by the people of Laketown as "a spark of fire rushing towards them and growing ever huger and more bright."  Like a star coming straight for them. In Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, the star called "The Conqueror’s Star" served a similar function.

More quotes that suggest the comet is a herald of AA, Daenerys, and her dragons:

Four times it's described as a herald for a dragon:

  • “Doubtless that was what they told Joffrey; Sansa was not so sure. “I’ve heard servants calling it the Dragon’s Tail.” “King Joffrey sits where Aegon the Dragon once sat, in the castle built by his son,” Ser Arys said. “He is the dragon’s heir—and crimson is the color of House Lannister, another sign. This comet is sent to herald Joffrey’s ascent to the throne, I have no doubt. It means that he will triumph over his enemies.” - Sansa, ACOK
  • “There is the sign you have waited for, blazoned on the sky. Red, it is, the red of flame, red for the fiery heart of the true god. it is his banner—and yours! See how it unfurls across the heavens like a dragon’s hot breath, and you the Lord of Dragonstone. It means your time has come, Your Grace." - Prologue, ACOK
  • “In the streets, they call it the Red Messenger,” Varys said. “They say it comes as a herald before a king, to warn of fire and blood to follow.” - Tyion, ACOK
  • “The Dothraki named the comet shierak qiya, the Bleeding Star. The old men muttered that it omened ill, but Daenerys Targaryen had seen it first on the night she had burned Khal Drogo, the night her dragons had awakened. It is the herald of my coming, she told herself as she gazed up into the night sky with wonder in her heart. The gods have sent it to show me the way.” - Daenerys, ACOK

The comet is also the main reason Dany lit Drogo's funeral pyre.

After "the bleeding star," more imagery is added: a sword from the forge (fire) and a red sword (of blood):

  • The Red Sword,” the Bull named it; he claimed it looked like a sword, the blade still red-hot from the forge. When Arya squinted the right way she could see the sword too, only it wasn’t a new sword, it was Ice, her father’s greatsword, all ripply Valyrian steel, and the red was Lord Eddard’s blood on the blade after Ser Ilyn the King’s Justice had cut off his head. Yoren had made her look away when it happened, yet it seemed to her that the comet looked like Ice must have, after.” - Arya, ACOK

The fire=blood=murder (sword) imagery continues:

  • "The comet’s tail spread across the dawn, a red slash that bled above the crags of Dragonstone like a wound in the pink and purple sky. "  - ACOK, Prologue
  • “Yet when he closed his eyes, he could still see the light of the comet, red and flery and vividly alive amidst the darkness of his dreams. Perhaps it is my comet, he thought drowsily at the last, just before sleep took him. An omen of blood, foretelling murder . . . yes . . . ” - ACOK, Prologue

And war, with cookfires representing the swords of an army:

  • “Torches flickered along the walls of Dragonstone, and in the camp beyond, he could see hundreds of cookfires burning, as if a field of stars had fallen to the earth. Above, the comet blazed red and malevolent. - ACOK, Prologue

The old wives tales speak the truth of it:

  • “When Bran repeated that to Osha, she laughed aloud. “Your wolves have more wit than your maester,” the wildling woman said. “They know truths the grey man has forgotten.” The way she said it made him shiver, and when he asked what the comet meant, she answered, “Blood and fire, boy, and nothing sweet.”
  • “Though Old Nan did not think so, and she’d lived longer than any of them. “Dragons,” she said, lifting her head and sniffing. She was near blind and could not see the comet, yet she claimed she could smell it. “It be dragons, boy,” she insisted. Bran got no princes from Nan, no more than he ever had.” - Bran, ACOK

Then there is the image of Dany touching the comet, grasping the sword,  i.e. fly a dragon to conquer the 7 Kingdoms:

  • “It would be like standing on a mountaintop, only better. The whole world would be spread out below If I flew high enough, I could even see the Seven Kingdoms, and reach up and touch the comet. - Daenerys, ACOK

All of this fits the author's penchant for subtle clues. It's not a literal sword. Lightbringer as a magical weapon against the Others is also unnecessary since we already have magical swords - dragonglass and Valyrian steel. Making the sword even more magical with sorcery is unnecessary, which suggests that Dany and her dragons won't be the savior that many think they will be. One can simply look at the ominous imagery in these quotes ^ to figure it out.

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7 minutes ago, Ckram said:

Would you mind to elaborate this part?

The three magic past characters, Azor Ahai, the Prince that was promised and the last hero are all archetypes that serve as foreshadowing about the journey of the three.
1: Dany is the AA archetype. She sacrificed her beloved to create flaming weapons. She does not do swordplay, but she does have the most powerful weapon the world has ever seen. There were three sacrifices. Her son, her husband and the woman who betrayed her. 
2: Juan snow is TPTWP. He is descended from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, and he is literally the song of ice and fire. His biggest concern is to defend the realm from the impending darkness. 
3: Bran is the last hero. As the darkness approaches, he and his faithful companions travel north to find the CTOF and learn their magic to help defend the realm from the ice demons and their undead thralls. 
The thing with prophecy is that GRRM has gone out of his way to show that is is flawed bullshit. So none of it can be taken literally and directly. 
I know that fans here love the story, and because we are pushing a decade between book releases, they tend to take every shred of text there is and extrapolate  into fantastic theories, but we need to keep a few things in mind. Namely, the perspective of the books is westerosi, and characters only get as far east as Qarth. All of the eastern myths and legends like the Great empire stories are not meant to have a literal bearing on the plot. It is filler to flesh out a world. This is driven home by the Mel/Stanis plot. Stan's lightbringer is fake and he has made no sacrifices to forge the sword. Maester Aemon points it out quite succinctly. 
 
 

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27 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

LB is not and has never been real. It is a myth, based on the events of the long night and the last hero after the story traveled untold thousands of leagues east, changing slightly with each retelling and translation. 

Why traveling east? Shouldn't it be - traveling west? The origin of the prophecy about new Azor Ahai is Asshai. So it's likely, that AA is also from Asshai. I'm basing this assumption on what Salla said about forging of LB, that AA forged LB in sacred flames. In what culture, or religion, the fire is sacred? -> For those, who are followers of fire deity R'hllor. Though it's obvious, that not just any fire is sacred. So where could be found sacred flames? -> In R'hllor's temple. So, most likely, Azor Ahai was something like R'hllor's Red priest, and Lightbringer was forged in his temple. Currently R'hllor's main temple is in Volantis. But Volantis was founded by Valyrians as their first colony, after they defeated Ghys Empire, less than 5000 years ago. So the temple of R'hllor, that is in Volantis, was not the first in the world temple of R'hllor. Shadowbinders from Asshai are followers of R'hllor, so this religion, most likely, originates from Asshai. Add that to the fact, that the prophecy about Azor Ahai's return, was also made in Asshai, 5000 years ago, when Valyrians were only starting to become a prominent power on Planetos, and that Lightbringer was forged in sacred flames of a temple, so what we'll get as result, is that Azor Ahai lived in Asshai. So the legend about him, and Lightbringer, and First Long Night has traveled west, from Asshai thru Essos and to Westeros.

And the story about Azor Ahai and the Last Hero of First Men are too different to be about the same person. So there was two heroes, one in Essos, and one in Westeros. The Others of Westeros were not killed, but rather only lured (most likely, with the help of Children's magic) to far far north, where they were separated from humans by The Wall. While in Essos the Others were completely obliterated. The main difference between Azor Ahai and the Last Hero, is that Azor Ahai had Lightbringer, and it was an ultimate weapon, that was able to kill all the Others. So the fact, that currently there's no Others in Essos, is a prove, that Lightbringer did existed/does exist.

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1 minute ago, Megorova said:

Why traveling east? Shouldn't it be - traveling west?

No. Because you didn't read the quote I will read it for you. 

2 minutes ago, Megorova said:

 The origin of the prophecy about new Azor Ahai is Asshai.

Yes, but read what you quoted me on

53 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It is a myth, based on the events of the long night and the last hero 

 

4 minutes ago, Megorova said:

 So it's likely, that AA is also from Asshai. I'm basing this assumption on what Salla said about forging of LB, that AA forged LB in sacred flames. In what culture, or religion, the fire is sacred? -> For those, who are followers of fire deity R'hllor. Though it's obvious, that not just any fire is sacred. So where could be found sacred flames? -> In R'hllor's temple. So, most likely, Azor Ahai was something like R'hllor's Red priest, and Lightbringer was forged in his temple. Currently R'hllor's main temple is in Volantis. But Volantis was founded by Valyrians as their first colony, after they defeated Ghys Empire, less than 5000 years ago. So the temple of R'hllor, that is in Volantis, was not the first in the world temple of R'hllor. Shadowbinders from Asshai are followers of R'hllor, so this religion, most likely, originates from Asshai. Add that to the fact, that the prophecy about Azor Ahai's return, was also made in Asshai, 5000 years ago, when Valyrians were only starting to become a prominent power on Planetos, and that Lightbringer was forged in sacred flames of a temple, so what we'll get as result, is that Azor Ahai lived in Asshai. So the legend about him, and Lightbringer, and First Long Night has traveled west, from Asshai thru Essos and to Westeros.

Not at all. This is a major assumption that has nothing to do with anything written in any book. All we know of AA is that he was a blacksmith, he was married and he fought evil with a flaming sword. There is nothing in the story about being forged in sacred flames in a temple, nor os there anything in the books about the origin of the faith of the fire god. Also, we have only met one single shadowbinder that follows the red god. 
Everything in this reply is fanfic with no basis in text from the book. While a big imagination is a great thing, this is not your book, therefore we need to get away from that.
 Remember, the perspective of the story is westerosi, and in the WoIaF is is specifically stated that the knowledge of the world becomes less reliable the farther from the citadel we go. Now, we know that the long night was westerosi in origin. We know the event happened. There is a giant magical wall to prove it. We the readers have seen the children, the ice demons, their undead thralls and the magical power of the wall. The only red sword we have seen has been fake, as called out by Maester Aemon.
Stories change as they travel over vast distances and are translated between languages. The fact that Mel is wrong about Stan to such a major degree, including a fake LightBringer shows that the "prophecy" is bullshit. 

12 minutes ago, Megorova said:

And the story about Azor Ahai and the Last Hero of First Men are too different to be about the same person. So there was two heroes, one in Essos, and one in Westeros. The Others of Westeros were not killed, but rather only lured (most likely, with the help of Children's magic) to far far north, where they were separated from humans by The Wall. While in Essos the Others were completely obliterated. The main difference between Azor Ahai and the Last Hero, is that Azor Ahai had Lightbringer, and it was an ultimate weapon, that was able to kill all the Others. So the fact, that currently there's no Others in Essos, is a prove, that Lightbringer did existed/does exist.

Again, this is your fanfic. The point of my reply is that all myths are bullshit unless we the readers are shown otherwise. Also, there were way more than two heroes. You are forgetting Hyrkoon, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser, and there is no mention if ice demons and undead thralls in the AA story either. So, the others were not destroyed, and since there is no single mention of them outside of westeros ever anywhere, there is no reason to believe they crossed the sea. since they cannot walk or sail around  the wall, this fits. Also, absence of something does no prove it exists. And this is a fantasy book, so we are not hunting for clues in a crime scene. Since everything written by the author has shown. 
You are not the author of this story and you should not make so many baseless assumptions about the writing or plot of it, especially if there is no text that supports anything you are trying to say
 

 

 

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@Rose of Red Lake

I say the interpretation you propose is convoluted, not clear. It could be right, but it's not 'pretty clear'. Then, the matter is still open to debate, don't you think?

@Dorian Martell's son

Thank you. Your position on Lightbringer myth is clearly bullshit-proof. Then, would you mind to answer one more question: what makes you give credit to the speech on prophecies of a "feverish and dying" old maester?

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1 minute ago, Ckram said:

Thank you. Your position on Lightbringer myth is clearly bullshit-proof. Then, would you mind to answer one more question: what makes you give credit to the speech on prophecies of a "feverish and dying" old maester?

Lol are you saying Stan is AA reborn and his sword is the real lightbringer :rofl:
Aemon wasn't wasn't feverish or dying at the point where he was discussing LB with Sam. He was blind but he still had his wits. He was able to care for Jon, he was able to speak eloquently at the election of the LC. He had spent many a day discussing prophecy with his nephew, and he knew it well. 
There is no need to grasp at straws

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Ckram said:

I say the interpretation you propose is convoluted, not clear. It could be right, but it's not 'pretty clear'.

The text: Dragons are a flaming sword.

That's about as direct as it will get.

The rest are literary devices, imagery and metaphor.

Watch for red herrings.

12 minutes ago, Ckram said:

Then, the matter is still open to debate, don't you think?

What would you like to debate?

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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