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Ckram

A quick take on Lightbringer

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25 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

All of this fits the author's penchant for subtle clues.

Or all those clues could be GRRM's diversion, and the Bleeding Star comet wasn't heralding "birth" of the saviour. It's a red herring, same as Rhaegar's comet, that made him think, that Elia's Aegon was the Promised Prince. While the actual bleeding star was the one, from which was forged Dawn of Daynes - this sword is Lightbringer, and first Dayne was Azor Ahai, that lived during First Long Night. It was said about Dawn, that it was forged from the heart of a fallen star. Mother Mary's heart is depicted as burning, and pierced with seven swords. Nissa Nissa's sacrifice, Dawn being forged from a heart of a star, this is clues, with which GRRM is pointing towards Mother Mary, and ASOIAF's connection to the Bible. Some characters in the books interpreted, that the comet of 281 AC was sign of Aegon, as the Promised Prince; some thought, that the comet of 299 AC is a sign of Dany, being Azor Ahai reborn; and some thought, that it was a sign of Joffrey’s ascent to the throne, but they all were wrong. Because just some comet passing in the sky, doesn't have geographical connection to a particular character. All of them were under that comet, same as millions of other inhabitants of Planetos. So the Bleeding Star COMET (and comet is not a star) is just a big red herring. And the only character of ASOIAF, that (possibly) has geographical connection to a particular star, is Jon Snow, who was (possibly) born at Starfall, the castle that was build on crash site of a fallen STAR, and Dawn of Daynes was forged from the heart of that star.

51 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Lightbringer as a magical weapon against the Others is also unnecessary since we already have magical swords - dragonglass and Valyrian steel.

Valyrian steel, as a weapon against the Others, wasn't tested yet. We don't know whether it's able to kill them, or wights. The only thing, that is known, is that dragonglass can kill the Others, but against wights it's not very effective. Dragonglass is very brittle, and some wights are wearing armor, ringmail, furs, boiled leather - on all of this dragonglass weapon will break. Also, it seems, that dragons are weak against "winter" magic. Queen Alysanne's dragon was either too afraid to fly beyond The Wall, or couldn't do it (because the Others and their winter magic were on the other side of it). Which means, that it's likely, that in the war against the Others, Dany's dragons will be useless. If they can't, or won't approach the Others, then they can't fight against them. Also, originally GRRM wasn't intending to make dragons to be part of ASOIAF's plot. Which also means, that the ultimate weapon, that will defeat the Others, are not dragons. From the very beginning he was plannig to use a specific weapon against them. So a magic sword is necessary. And not only as a weapon, but also as a prove, of who the real Saviour is. As Melisandre said - "In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again".

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2 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Or all those clues could be GRRM's diversion, and the Bleeding Star comet wasn't heralding "birth" of the saviour. It's a red herring, same as Rhaegar's comet, that made him think, that Elia's Aegon was the Promised Prince.

I believe that the red herring is that Azor Ahai is a savior.

Dany is Azor Ahai, and she is not a savior. She's a destroyer. But she does have all the criteria for AA. Not that this actually matters, as you point out. 

3 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Which also means, that the ultimate weapon, that will defeat the Others, are not dragons. From the very beginning he was plannig to use a specific weapon against them. So a magic sword is necessary.

The Night's Watch.

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1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Fighting alongside dragons 

Maybe for a while, yeah. But the NW didn't need massive fire power the first time. Ice and fire are both threats so my guess is that eventually the dragons will destroy people and cities to conquer them. Every time the text mentions what the Valyrians, Dothraki, or Aegon I did in the past, that's what Dany will do to Westeros.

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Posted (edited)

@Dorian Martell's son

Not at all. You're right. I got confused with the cronology. Aemon was dying during the time he said Daenerys was Azor Ahar. It's that I've been busy musing on why people take his words on Azor Ahai in AFFC, Samwell IV as true that I took hasty conclusions. Sorry.

@Rose of Red Lake

The text also say: "Sorcery is a sword without a hilt". So I think that, only because we have an analogy made on text, it doesn't make things direct or clear. What you think?

Regarding the debate on going, this thread was created to discuss if it's plausible or not that Lightbringer would be some form of sorcery. It seems you're with the 'nays', is that it?

Edited by Ckram

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Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

Maybe for a while, yeah. 

It seems to be where the story is going. 

1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

 But the NW didn't need massive fire power the first time. 

Says who? They had the magic of the children, and great beasts were still roaming most of westeros.
If they didn't need massive firepower, why did the other's survive. And why did they need to build a 700 foot tall 300 mile wide magical wall of ice and rock and a martial order of men to protect the realm from their inevitable return? 

6 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

 Ice and fire are both threats so my guess is that eventually the dragons will destroy people and cities to conquer them.

Ice and fire are both saviors as well.  Ice preserves and fire cleanses. The whole point of the story is that there is good and bad in almost everything 

8 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

 Every time the text mentions what the Valyrians, Dothraki, or Aegon I did in the past, that's what Dany will do to Westeros.

 Part of Dany's story is her not becoming her father or her viserys. she is the breaker of chains. 

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Just now, Ckram said:

@Dorian Martell's son

Not at all. You're right. I confused with the cronology. Aemon was dying during the time he said Daenerys was Azor Ahar. It's that I've been busy musing on why people take his words on Azor Ahai in AFFC, Samwell IV as true that I took hasty conclusions. Sorry.

Thank you but no apologies are necessary. That is supposed to be the point of a forum like this. Points of view and clarification

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33 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

and there is no mention if ice demons and undead thralls in the AA story either. 

"The Five Forts are very old, older than the Golden Empire itself; some claim they were raised by the Pearl Emperor during the morning of the Great Empire to keep the Lion of Night and his demons from the realms of men...and indeed, there is something godlike, or demonic, about the monstrous size of the forts, for each of the five is large enough to house ten thousand men, and their massive walls stand almost a thousand feet high. "

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Ckram said:

Regarding the debate on going, this thread was created to discuss if it's plausible or not that Lightbringer would be some form of sorcery. It seems you're with the 'nays', is that it?

I think sorcery is correct. Because that's what Dany did to forge her "sword."

7 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It seems to be where the story is going. 

Sure, but you gotta throw a twist in there, since the author abhors predictable fiction. That's why I think Dany is threat #2 after the Others, as evidenced for all of the ominous imagery surrounding fire and blood in the quotes I posted.

7 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Says who? They had the magic of the children, and great beasts were still roaming most of westeros.
If they didn't need massive firepower, why did the other's survive. And why did they need to build a 700 foot tall 300 mile wide magical wall of ice and rock and a martial order of men to protect the realm from their inevitable return? 

If everyone thinks dragons will defeat the Others, they probably won't. Thinking critically here, the dragons melting away the Others is stupidly simple, like @Megorova explains, and there is already a weapon to defeat them. There's also the idea that ice served as protection with Wall, and manned by the NW, the fire that burns against the cold, Ice and Fire, is already there. 

13 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Ice and fire are both saviors as well.  Ice preserves and fire cleanses. The whole point of the story is that there is good and bad in almost everything 

Dany has already done her "good stuff" in Essos though. And you'll think she'll continue to do even more good by saving the world? Where's this "good and bad" that you speak of if dragons save everyone at the end?

I did a search for "savior" in the books. Every time it comes up it's in a negative context. Almost like the author is mocking this concept (as he should, it's a tired fantasy trope).

I think the similarities between the Others and the dragons is that, the world could end in pure Ice OR pure Fire. Too much ice/too much fire are weapons used in destructive ways to bring death.

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8 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

"The Five Forts are very old, older than the Golden Empire itself; some claim they were raised by the Pearl Emperor during the morning of the Great Empire to keep the Lion of Night and his demons from the realms of men...and indeed, there is something godlike, or demonic, about the monstrous size of the forts, for each of the five is large enough to house ten thousand men, and their massive walls stand almost a thousand feet high. "

That is one line in the books about a place thousands of leagues away from anywhere a character goes to. We the readers do not see them.  

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3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sure, but you gotta throw a twist in there, since the author abhors predictable fiction. That's why I think Dany is threat #2 after the Others, as evidenced for all of the ominous imagery surrounding fire and blood in the quotes I posted.

True, he does, but I don't think Dany would be written to have all of the experiences she has and then go straight evil.  She was sold as a commodity.  She was betrayed, she sacrificed her beloved, she lead people across the desert. She fought the undying. She freed slaves and sacked the cities of those who tried to stop her. A twist of her going ham fisted evil is so far out of character I can't see it. Cersei is far more evil and self serving, Euron is far more destructive and dangerous and Ramsey is far more brutal  than she will ever be. I can see her betraying someone she promises later, but nuking westeros, the land she is supposed to rule will be her deal. 

18 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If everyone thinks dragons will defeat the Others, they probably won't. 

I never said they would. I said they would fight alongside the watch.

19 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Thinking critically here, the dragons melting away the Others is stupidly simple, like @Megorova explains, and there is already a weapon to defeat them.

There are many weapons. We have seen them. There is Tree magic, obsidian, dragon fire, Valyrian steel ( I know it is from the thing we shall not mention but it was shown  over 2 years ago so it isn't a secret anymore) and of course, the magic of the red god and I am hoping that we will get to see Dawn used against them. 

22 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

There's also the idea that ice served as protection with Wall, and manned by the NW, the fire that burns against the cold, Ice and Fire, is already there. 

I have already stated that. Ice and fire is literally the name of the series. Neither is good or bad, they are elements to be harvested.  

23 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany has already done her "good stuff" in Essos though.

So she stops as soon as she leaves slaver's bay? Nah, she is growing as a character. Reversing her arc is not something GRRM would do. He loves to subvert tropes, not send characters spiraling. 

25 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

And you'll think she'll continue to do even more good by saving the world?

why not? What character had done a complete 180 and abandoned all of their experiences that lead them to where they are? 

26 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Where's this "good and bad" that you speak of if dragons save everyone at the end?

Dragons are currently wreaking havoc all over Mereen. Children have been burned and eaten, crops destroyed. That is why Dany had to lock them away.  And again, the thing we shall not mention has shown the reversal of fortune of a dragon 2 years ago. I am sure it will happen in the books. 

28 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I did a search for "savior" in the books. Every time it comes up it's in a negative context. Almost like the author is mocking this concept (as he should, it's a tired fantasy trope).

 Lol that was my word not the author's. 

29 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think the similarities between the Others and the dragons is that, the world could end in pure Ice OR pure Fire. Too much ice/too much fire are weapons used in destructive ways to bring death.

The dragons are not the others. They represent an opposing aspect  but are not the polar opposite.  The world already is composed of ice and fire. The Others seek to destroy life as we know it. Living sentient beings are working to oppose them. That is the song of ice and fire 

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1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

True, he does, but I don't think Dany would be written to have all of the experiences she has and then go straight evil.  She was sold as a commodity.  She was betrayed, she sacrificed her beloved, she lead people across the desert. She fought the undying. She freed slaves and sacked the cities of those who tried to stop her. A twist of her going ham fisted evil is so far out of character I can't see it. Cersei is far more evil and self serving, Euron is far more destructive and dangerous and Ramsey is far more brutal  than she will ever be. I can see her betraying someone she promises later, but nuking westeros, the land she is supposed to rule will be her deal. 

Aegon I and Khal Drogo weren't straight evil. They still killed a lot of people though. That's what Dany plans to do, does she not? You don't think Dany is the khal of khals? 

1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I never said they would. I said they would fight alongside the watch.

Yeah superhero/villain team ups work for a time then they end up fighting each other.

2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

There are many weapons. We have seen them. There is Tree magic, obsidian, dragon fire, Valyrian steel ( I know it is from the thing we shall not mention but it was shown  over 2 years ago so it isn't a secret anymore) and of course, the magic of the red god and I am hoping that we will get to see Dawn used against them. 

The magic of blood and fire, Valyrian magic, can be overpowered though. That's what I'm saying, fire in small amounts is fine. 3 dragons isn't a small amount of fire.

3 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I have already stated that. Ice and fire is literally the name of the series. Neither is good or bad, they are elements to be harvested.  

By themselves they are harmful, though. A mixture is better, a small amount of each. Even dragon glass is a mixture of earth and fire, for instance.

4 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

So she stops as soon as she leaves slaver's bay? Nah, she is growing as a character. Reversing her arc is not something GRRM would do. He loves to subvert tropes, not send characters spiraling. 

What does "stop" mean"? She'll grow into a conqueror. Of humans. 

6 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

why not? What character had done a complete 180 and abandoned all of their experiences that lead them to where they are? 

All her experiences are leading her to conquer the 7 kingdoms.

6 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Dragons are currently wreaking havoc all over Mereen. Children have been burned and eaten, crops destroyed. That is why Dany had to lock them away.  And again, the thing we shall not mention has shown the reversal of fortune of a dragon 2 years ago. I am sure it will happen in the books. 

it's DANY who is doing the most good in Meereen. Her dragons will always be destructive though. She's just on an arc getting her more comfortable with that fact so she can go fuck up more stuff with them.

8 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The dragons are not the others. They represent an opposing aspect  but are not the polar opposite.  The world already is composed of ice and fire. The Others seek to destroy life as we know it. Living sentient beings are working to oppose them. That is the song of ice and fire 

Fire isn't the polar opposite of ice? I'd have to disagree. They are two opposing forces, there are ice and fire wights, the Others and the dragons are both used as magical weapons to kill people, they could even be weapons used by the Children and the Valyrians. 

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1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

This is driven home by the Mel/Stanis plot. Stan's lightbringer is fake and he has made no sacrifices to forge the sword. Maester Aemon points it out quite succinctly. 

The living sacrifice was necessary to forge Lightbringer, so Azor Ahai killed his wife, and the sword was completed. So there's no need for any additional sacrifices to be made now. Lightbringer is already a completed weapon, ready for use. All it needs, is a chosen man to wield it. And, probably, it should be descendant of first Azor Ahai. For example, if Dyanna Dayne was sole child of Lord Dayne, and after she got married with future King Maekar, House Dayne continued from a side branch of Dayne family, then Jon is a direct descendant of Azor Ahai/first Lord Dayne, while Arthur, Ashara, Allyria and Edric, are not. The thing is, is that if Dawn is Lightbringer, and Lightbringer is supposed to be a magical blazing sword, then why wasn't it mentioned anywhere, that Dawn was the sword like that, i.e. fire-sword? But, maybe, it was mentioned, only it was very subtle and vague -> Samwell Dayne, known as the Starfire, once sacked Oldtown.

"Thrice in the space of a single century the city was taken and sacked, once by the Dornish king Samwell Dayne (the Starfire), once by Qhored the Cruel and his ironmen, and once by Gyles I Gardener (the Woe), who reportedly sold three-quarters of the city’s inhabitants into slavery, but was unable to breach the defenses of the Hightower on Battle Isle.

The wooden palisades and ditch that had protected the city heretofore having so obviously been proved inadequate, the next King of the High Tower, Otho II, spent the best part of his reign surrounding Oldtown with massive stone walls, thicker and higher than any seen in Westeros to this point."

Seems, that the wooden palisades proved to be inadequate, because they got burned by those, who attacked the city. Could be, that Samwell was the Sword of the Morning, and he burned Oldtown with Dawn's fire, that's why his nickname was Starfire -> Dawn forged from the heart of a fallen star + it's a blazing sword Lightbringer = Starfire. Though, probably, not just any Dayne, or person with Dayne blood, is able to "ignite" Dawn. And the last time Daynes were able to ignite it, was thousands years ago, prior Nymeria's arrival to Dorne. That's why inhabitants of Westeros haven't made connection between Dawn of Daynes and Azor Ahai's Lightbringer.

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It is a myth, based on the events of the long night and the last hero 

So you think, that there was no Azor Ahai in Essos, and that First Long Night was a local only-in-Westeros event, and that stories about it traveled east, and were distorted into a legend about Azor Ahai? :huh:

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

All we know of AA is that he was a blacksmith, he was married and he fought evil with a flaming sword.

Just because he forged a sword, doesn't mean, that he was a blacksmith. If he was a blacksmith, and he knew, what he was doing, then it wouldn't have taken him six months to make a single sword.

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

There is nothing in the story about being forged in sacred flames in a temple

ACOK, Davos I : "Do you know the tale of the forging of Lightbringer? I shall tell it to you. It was a time when darkness lay heavy on the world. To oppose it, the hero must have a hero's blade, oh, like none that had ever been. And so for thirty days and thirty nights Azor Ahai labored sleepless in the temple, forging a blade in the sacred fires."

:smug:

:)

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Remember, the perspective of the story is westerosi, and in the WoIaF is is specifically stated that the knowledge of the world becomes less reliable the farther from the citadel we go.

But thru Sam, GRRM has implied, that maesters are big fat liars, that write history, the way it fits them. So the opposite could be true - the further from the Citadel, the less distorted is information.

And the prophecy about Azor Ahai reborn, is more ancient, than any records of the Citadel, was made 5000 years ago, and no paper will last that long. So my guess, is that because Andals were the ones, who started to use paper for writing, while people before them, such as First Men, were using runes on stones and trees, the prophecy about AAR was recorded thru something similar to runes, on the walls of the same temple, in which AA forged Lightbringer.

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Now, we know that the long night was westerosi in origin. We know the event happened. There is a giant magical wall to prove it.

The only thing, that that wall proves, is that the Children and the Last Hero were unable to destroy the Others, so as a measure against them , they created The Wall, to separate the Others from the rest of Westeros.

Just because there's no Wall in Essos, doesn't mean, that the event (Long Night) wasn't global.

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The fact that Mel is wrong about Stan to such a major degree, including a fake LightBringer shows that the "prophecy" is bullshit.

It only shows, that she doesn't know, that the real Prince of Dragonstone, who is the Promised Prince, is actually Jon Snow (as Rhaegar's son, he is the PD). General public in 7K are under impression, that Stannis is the Prince of Dragonstone, and thus heir to King Robert.

What Mel was shown in flames, when she asked to show her TPTWP, Jon Snow behind curtain of fire, is a prove, that the prophecy is correct - Prince of Dragonstone is Azor Ahai reborn and future wielder of Lightbringer.

It's my assumption, that Mel came to Stannis, because in Asshai she saw the prophecy on the walls of R'hllor's temple, and, based on information given in that prophecy, correctly deducted who is AAR - Prince of Dragonstone.

It's people of Westeros, that lead her astray, with making her think, that Stannis is PD.

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

You are not the author of this story and you should not make so many baseless assumptions about the writing or plot of it, especially if there is no text that supports anything you are trying to say

There's such a thing, as "reading between the lines", that's what I'm doing.

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

And this is a fantasy book, so we are not hunting for clues in a crime scene. Since everything written by the author has shown. 

Yes, it was all shown, but in such a manner, that majority of readers, are not aware, what exactly have they read.

For example, did you noticed, that when Dany was giving birth to Rhaego, she was assisted by Quaithe, and that Quaithe has removed her mask, and Dany saw, that it was Shiera Seastar? No? Then wait until GRRM wil write it in a more plain manner. ^_^

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Also, we have only met one single shadowbinder that follows the red god. 

All shadowbinders are followers of R'hllor. That's logical. Shadowbinding is usage of fire and shadows, and both are elements controlled by R'hllor.

Mirri Maz Duur was also a shadowbinder. So was Shiera Seastar, and, possibly, Rohanne Webber.

The Sworn Sword - " "I'm not like to marry her. She's a highborn lady, and I'm Dunk of Flea Bottom, remember?" He frowned. "Just how many husbands has she had, do you know?"

"Four," said Egg, "but no children. Whenever she gives birth, a demon comes by night to carry off the issue. Sam Stoops' wife says she sold her babes unborn to the Lord of the Seven Hells, so he'd teach her his black arts."

"Highborn ladies don't meddle with the black arts. They dance and sing and do embroidery."

"Maybe she dances with demons and embroiders evil spells," Egg said with relish. "And how would you know what highborn ladies do, ser? Lady Vaith is the only one you ever knew."

That was insolent, but true. "Might be I don't know any highborn ladies, but I know a boy who's asking for a good clout in the ear." Dunk rubbed the back of his neck. A day in chainmail always left it hard as wood. "You've known queens and princesses. Did they dance with demons and practice the black arts?"

"Lady Shiera does. Lord Bloodraven's paramour. She bathes in blood to keep her beauty. And once my sister Rhae put a love potion in my drink, so I'd marry her instead of my sister Daella."  "

AGOT, Dany VIII: "What was wrong with them, couldn't they see? Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames."

AGOT, Dany IX: ""Only shadows," Ser Jorah husked, but Dany could hear the doubt in his voice. "I saw, maegi. I saw you, alone, dancing with the shadows.""

"Dancing with demons" is shadowbinding. We know from the books, that both Mirri and Shiera Seastar were doing it.

And when Mirri was burning on Drogo's funeral pyre, she was singing a magic spell to fire, to sacrifice herself to R'hllor. Mirri has willingly sacrificed her life, to aid Dany with hatching her dragons. That's because Mirri was serving to Quaithe (who is Shiera). <- Though it was all "written between the lines". ^_^

Maybe, I'm wrong, but that's how I interpreted, what GRRM has wrote.

If later, it will turns out, that my "fanfics" were correct interpretation, of what GRRM has wrote, then it will mean, that I was able to see, what other readers totally missed, and that, to figure out mysteries of ASOIAF, my approach of "hunting for clues in a crime scene", was also an appropriate tool for reading such a complicated and multilayered writing as GRRM's.

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