The Umbrella Academy

[dooog]

32 minutes ago, karaddin said:

He literally locked her up underground in a sensory deprivation chamber completely sound baffled and left her there for at the very least days, implied to be considerably more. That is literally torture. The professor is profoundly abusive and I've got no idea how you can interpret it any other way, especially when what we see is 7 children all completely fucked up by the abusive nature of their upbringing.

When you call Vanya an "entitled sociopath" its the first word I'm objecting to, not the second. There is nothing about her that is particularly entitled in a way distinct from any other person in the show or reality. Now Leonard? Yeah that fucker felt he was entitled, but Vanya not so much. Even the upbringing that she remembers was filled with psychological abuse on the grounds of not being special like her siblings so its hardly surprising that she's developed some issues around inadequacy.

If you want to run with a utilitarian argument that the ends justified the means in trying to prevent the apocalypse being caused by Vanya, then I'd agree that posing that question is one of the primary thematic beats of the story...but that doesn't erase the evil of the means.

"For the purposes of this Convention, the word "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed"

None of the above applies to Vanya. She wasn't tortured. She was put there because she was a danger to everyone, including herself. Unpleasant and traumatizing for her? absolutely, but it's a unique set of circumstances with a special powered girl who is apparently untrainable and unable to control herself which results in her killing people.  The professor's way isn't perfect but it least buys time until some manner of a permanent solution is found. 

What do you propose he should have done instead? Left her to her own devices in the mansion until she killed one of the characters we're familiar with, or worse?

 

The seven children are undeniably fucked up in each of their own ways. But they aren't normal children so normal criteria don't apply to them. Imagine how much more fucked up they'd potentially be with nobody to understand they're special and teach them to exert control over their various abilities from an early age.

[karaddin]

Perhaps you'd like to reread my last paragraph in which I acknowledge there is a question to be asked about whether this is still the right action to take if looking through a utilitarian lens? If it had worked, it may indeed have been the right way to proceed but that doesn't make it personally any less reprehensible and the show doesn't shy away from that.

It also doesn't work and in fact this intervention causes the end of the world in the only timeline we have seen, so you know...there is that. I think all 7 of them would have been in a better position just raised as ordinary kids with loving families that had no idea how to deal with their powers, because they'd still be receiving something vital to healthy development. And that's not just spouting off, the importance of care and intimacy to development has been demonstrated in morally questionable psychology studies.

ETA: On your torture definition it seems that this fits the "severe pain or suffering" of a "mental" nature. I guess the intent behind it doesn't fit however, so...hooray? He's inflicted an equivalent amount of pain on his adopted daughter but not for the motives that constitute torture.

[Alarich II]

6 hours ago, dooog said:

I think it's a little harsh on the professor. He gave the children a good home, provided for them and taught them how to control their abilities, without the latter they likely would've encountered even more difficulties in their lives had they not been adopted. He never prevented them from leaving and doing their own thing once they became of age. His main failing is that he was always busy (which he probably had good reason to be) and that he never showed the children any love or affection... yet he built them a robot mother who could provide these things so he was providing affection by proxy through his creation, even Vanya says as much and all the children clearly regard her with love, particularly Diego.

Whoa, a good home? Where you are locked into cells (remember what he did to Klaus?), trained to kill, get no love or affection, oh yeah and if you are unlucky you get killed or kill yourself on your teenage vigilante mission (we don't really know what happened to Ben). Or you get sent to the moon, alone, for something like two years. On a fake mission, just to be out of the way. But hey - the guy built a robot mum for the kids. All the while systematically excluding and debasing Vanya in front of all her siblings to the point where she is not even allowed on the "family" pictures.

And speaking of training to control their abilities... well yeah, when you are really good at throwing knives, that's kind of a no-brainer, but with Vanya there was no serious attempt, N° 5 couldn't jump back and Ben got killed as a teenager, so that's something like 4 out of 7 who got to adulthood - not exactly a great quote. That's already counting in Allison who misuses her power to make people do what she wants - for all we know, her power is basically like a permanent date rape drug on that poor husband until she releases him. She only realizes the wrongness in that after she repeatedly uses her power on her own daughter.

I'm sorry but old Hargreaves is a total dick and the main reason, why the kids are mostly fucked up.

[Heartofice]

1 hour ago, Alarich II said:

I'm sorry but old Hargreaves is a total dick and the main reason, why the kids are mostly fucked up.

This is definitely how it appears right now. I'm assuming at some point next season something will be revealed which puts Hargreaves in a better light. 

[karaddin]

I think we'll get more on his motives but that in no way makes his parenting less abusive. As I said you can argue about whether its justified by the ends, but its not erased.

[Heartofice]

I guess we'll have to find out. There were certainly moments where it was shown that he felt remorse for his actions, but that he felt they were necessary for the greater good. 

Also.. he is an alien right?

I'm still a bit fuzzy on how he was so worried about preventing the apocalypse.. when he seems to have essentially caused a lot of it. Maybe he knew about it from the very beginning, and that he needed to find Vanya when she was born and try to control her. 

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

This is definitely how it appears right now. I'm assuming at some point next season something will be revealed which puts Hargreaves in a better light. 

Well he did train the kids to kill people. Not exactly something I can approve of, regardless of the context.

[karaddin]

Given the theme of preserving the timeline I assume that Vanya still wound up performing that concert in that location at that time even without his intervention. It just so happens that his interference is the cause of it in this timeline.

[dooog]

On 4/2/2019 at 7:31 AM, Alarich II said:

Whoa, a good home? Where you are locked into cells (remember what he did to Klaus?), trained to kill, get no love or affection, oh yeah and if you are unlucky you get killed or kill yourself on your teenage vigilante mission (we don't really know what happened to Ben). Or you get sent to the moon, alone, for something like two years. On a fake mission, just to be out of the way. But hey - the guy built a robot mum for the kids. All the while systematically excluding and debasing Vanya in front of all her siblings to the point where she is not even allowed on the "family" pictures.

And speaking of training to control their abilities... well yeah, when you are really good at throwing knives, that's kind of a no-brainer, but with Vanya there was no serious attempt, N° 5 couldn't jump back and Ben got killed as a teenager, so that's something like 4 out of 7 who got to adulthood - not exactly a great quote. That's already counting in Allison who misuses her power to make people do what she wants - for all we know, her power is basically like a permanent date rape drug on that poor husband until she releases him. She only realizes the wrongness in that after she repeatedly uses her power on her own daughter.

I'm sorry but old Hargreaves is a total dick and the main reason, why the kids are mostly fucked up.

"With Vanya there was no serious attempt" What are you basing this on. The show showed him spending plenty of time on this.  Several people died in the process. "No 5 couldn't jump back" Yes, because he directly disobeyed a strict instruction by the professor which they showed in perfect clarity. "Ben got killed as a teenager" Yep that is awful. But seeing as we have absolutely no details on this it's not worth discussing. The professor was trying to teach these children how to prevent the future apocalypse. Hazards of the job and all that. Again we don't know anything.

The part of your response that baffles me is with Allison though. In my own opinion, of all the "main" characters, the Professor is the only one who makes decisions where I can understand the logic from his perspective.  Sending Luther to the moon for a few years is the only real dickish thing he's done, although even then, I can sort of understand his logic behind it.  But Alisson, Alisson is the worst parent of all time. Professor is a poor parent because he shows no love and makes decisions with the "greater good" in mind. Allison is the worst parent of all time because she uses her powers on her child instead of proper parenting,  and it is entirely out of her own selfishness, like not being arsed to read another bedtime story? fuck that. If you want to lay her failings as a parent on the Professor's door then go for it, but I don't agree.

 

On 4/2/2019 at 12:14 PM, sifth said:

Well he did train the kids to kill people. Not exactly something I can approve of, regardless of the context.

Not even in the context of: "I need to train these children to prevent the end of the world" ?

 

On 4/2/2019 at 4:09 AM, karaddin said:

Perhaps you'd like to reread my last paragraph in which I acknowledge there is a question to be asked about whether this is still the right action to take if looking through a utilitarian lens? If it had worked, it may indeed have been the right way to proceed but that doesn't make it personally any less reprehensible and the show doesn't shy away from that.

It also doesn't work and in fact this intervention causes the end of the world in the only timeline we have seen, so you know...there is that. I think all 7 of them would have been in a better position just raised as ordinary kids with loving families that had no idea how to deal with their powers, because they'd still be receiving something vital to healthy development. And that's not just spouting off, the importance of care and intimacy to development has been demonstrated in morally questionable psychology studies.

ETA: On your torture definition it seems that this fits the "severe pain or suffering" of a "mental" nature. I guess the intent behind it doesn't fit however, so...hooray? He's inflicted an equivalent amount of pain on his adopted daughter but not for the motives that constitute torture.

First point. The show doesn't shy from showing his actions as "reprehensible" because this is all imparted through the opinion of the children, who resent him for everything wrong in their respective lives.

Second point. I think they'd be better off together learning as gifted children and not feeling like outsiders, in a place where someone with understanding of their gifts teaches them how to harness their powers. You think they'd be better with loving families. (though as we know, these children were born spontaneously so the happy family thing could be a stretch in several  cases) It's pure pie in the sky conjecture from both of us, who knows which would've been the better case scenario. But hey, if XMen has taught us anything it's that these folks are complete outcasts til they find a mansion that helps with special powers!.

Third point. It's the definition of torture, I didn't make it up, it's not mine. For example if someone was committed to a psychiatric institution and they are put in a personal safety room or a strait-jacket and medicated, that isn't torture either, though that patient may also likely experience suffering.

[Alarich II]

3 hours ago, dooog said:

"With Vanya there was no serious attempt" What are you basing this on. The show showed him spending plenty of time on this.  Several people died in the process.

No, the show dedicates precious little time for his attempts:

What we see is, Nanny one dies. Reaction? Send a new one. Nanny two dies. Reaction? Same as before. New try, let's build a Robo-Mum, god forbid that tries to express some human feelings himself. Then he concentrates exclusively on her powers, entirely neglecting the fact that these are linked to her emotions and does his "training" thing where he basically abuses the children until they "work" as intended (just look at Klaus and what it got him). This one however has a "malfunction" during the thunderstorm, so he locks her for days into a special sensory deprivation chamber (which, like systematic sleep deprivation, is a torture method), then medicates her and uses Allison to suppress her feelings.

A serious attempt to teach and train her would have included - at least for those children with power linked to emotions - a serious try to get behind the emotional needs of a child. Instead he used and trained her as a tool, which he discarded when it turned out that his usual method of psychological and physical abuse didn't yield the expected results.

No, that's not a serious attempt in training, that just pure lazyness.

Quote

"No 5 couldn't jump back" Yes, because he directly disobeyed a strict instruction by the professor which they showed in perfect clarity.

Oh yeah, because teenagers always do as they are told. Oh man. Really, a direct order and N° didn't reply "Sir, Yessir", what is the world coming to. Oh wait, it the perfectly normal response to emotional abuse: Hargreaves knows only order and punishment and sees the kids as his own tools. So, the children never know what order is only self-serving abuse and what is meant to protect them, because with old Hargreaves everything is about total control and coercion. They cannot trust him that he has their interest in mind, because everything that he does, serves only his own secret agenda. He basically creates an environment where the kids are bound to break out sooner or later and when it inevitably happens, he leans back and says "told you so". That's not training or teaching, this is total failure to recognize that these are human beings and not just special power tools. That's the whole point: he focuses so exclusively on the powers that he totally neglects even the most basic things about raising and teaching kids.

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"Ben got killed as a teenager" Yep that is awful. But seeing as we have absolutely no details on this it's not worth discussing. The professor was trying to teach these children how to prevent the future apocalypse. Hazards of the job and all that. Again we don't know anything. 

Actually yes, it's absolutely worth discussing. I mean, yeah, hazards of the job and all that. Except none of the kids chose that job. None of the kids knew about the apocalypse (except N° 5, after his jump). What we know specifically about Ben, is that he didn't want this, we know that he didn't want to kill those bank robbers, in fact he's pretty badly traumatized. Hargreaves essentially turns these children into child soldiers and uses very similar methods to militia leaders in Congo and other regions: brainwashing, emotional neglect, and systemaic desensitisation to violence via trauma. 

We also know that Ben died as a teenager and, given the reaction of the others, it is highly unlikely that he just died in a random accident or malady. That leaves as plausible and likely alternatives KIA or suicide. Both of which are Hargreaves responsibility.

3 hours ago, dooog said:

Alisson is the worst parent of all time.

My point precisely. Perhaps not of all time, but pretty bad. Now, I wonder where she got that from? Could it possibly be that she had been adopted by a sociopathic and abusive old guy? I mean, we know that parenting styles are to a certain degree inherited. We know that Hargreaves never cared about about the emotional development of his power tools. So Allisons development into an abusive mother/wife is not exactly surprising, seeing that Hargreaves paved that way for her from early childhood on, starting with what he made her do to Vanya.

 

My point is: This was not a good home. Hargreaves was an abusive sociopath. His "training methods" lost 3 out of 7 children befored adolescene. With a good part of the rest being either severly traumatized (like Klaus) or on their on way to becoming sociopaths (like Allison), all of them unable to build functioning relationships. And the apocalypse happened anyway, arguably because of what he did to Vanya in the first place. It's a fuck-up of epic proportions.