The Umbrella Academy

[Heartofice]

17 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I mean, the women hadn't been pregnant before giving birth so I took it as "theyre too freaked out by the whole thing and just wanted the kids gone"

Also, it's like the sort of thing that happens in a comic book you know. 

[dooog]

20 hours ago, Crazydog7 said:

 

We shouldn't overlook the flaws of something just because we like certain elements of it.   Star Trek 5 was a Star Trek movie.  It doesn't absolve Shatner for his idiotic plot. 

I will say 5 was adorable in a smug little asshole kind of way.  I almost turned off the (2nd?) episode?  But then he went to the Diner and killed those guys. 

Agree. Comics, fantasy, scifi etc all have certain standards and "rules" which they generally adhere to. If there's something absurd without any explanation whatsoever then it should be called. Just because a genre deals in the extraordinary doesn't meanit's exempt from basic story telling standards.

[Corvinus85]

Didn't it say there were 43 kids, but the guy only the 7? I kept expecting to see at least one more show up, maybe as the villain. I guess season 2?

[Heartofice]

8 hours ago, dooog said:

Agree. Comics, fantasy, scifi etc all have certain standards and "rules" which they generally adhere to. If there's something absurd without any explanation whatsoever then it should be called. 

It all depends on tone I think. UA does have a slight issue with its tone in that at times it comes across as gritty and realistic, but it has a talking monkey. But I never had an issue with it.

[Iskaral Pust]

Finished it.  Enjoyed it overall, but Klaus, Five and Hazel were the main positives alongside the quirky aesthetic and the fun music.  The sibling bickering reduced a bit after the funeral but the characterization relies entirely on resenting a stern, distant father deep into adulthood.  Luther and Diego were terrible characters (Luther by far the worst), and Allison was a wasted character as she mostly represented the only sibling warmth to a Vanya, a love interest for Luther (it’s still creepy for adopted siblings) and a mommy who misses her daughter — we never get to see why she was the most independent and least socially underdeveloped of the siblings.  Vanya is a despicable* character, but at least interesting and a crucial (predictable) plot device.  

The central narrative is pretty messed up: an emotionally distant parent will necessarily produce children who cannot function as adults, and anyone who isn’t made to feel special will (and has every right to) lash out violently against whoever denied their specialness.  It seems very angsty YA.

*I think the worst of Vanya’s character was that her entitlement to be recognized and celebrated as special — to the point where she felt fully justified in executing anyone who might block this — felt like an unintended analogy of an incel on a murder spree.  But then I never have much patience for characters whose central drama is that they don’t receive their “due” self-actualization from the people around them.  As much as I hate bullies, I also dislike any entitlement to love/fame/admiration/ego-stroking, which is a kind of inverse of bullying.

[Alarich II]

On 3/28/2019 at 1:47 AM, Iskaral Pust said:

As much as I hate bullies, I also dislike any entitlement to love/fame/admiration/ego-stroking, which is a kind of inverse of bullying.

I don't think it was entitlement:

Spoiler

Vanya was manipulated by Allisons "persuasive" power that she wasn't special. Her talent was actively suppressed and I think that it was mainly her subconsciousness revolting against that, to the point where she would lash out at anyone who she perceives as manipulating her.

 

[Heartofice]

Vanya was also shown to be pretty violent and uncontrollable in her childhood, and was probably always susceptible to turning to the dark side.

[Iskaral Pust]

Vanya killed at least one nanny before a cyborg version was introduced and she severely injured (possibly killed) two others too.  Because she didn’t want to eat oatmeal.  A young child does not have adult comprehension or responsibility, but this looks like psychopathic behavior because it was not an isolated event or an emotionally triggered one.  She saw the results of death/serious injury and yet still repeated the action only to assert her independence from adult direction. 

As an adult, she almost kills Allison because she is angry/resentful about the childhood manipulation and unwilling to allow it again now.  This is the most defensible of her actions — she feels threatened in the moment, even if she is conveniently ignoring the threat she poses to Allison in that moment.  But then she executes Leonard for angering her by calling her ordinary.  He was despicable too but he had not harmed or threatened Vanya, his only transgression in her eyes was to call her ordinary.  And then she executes Pogo because he knew her powers had been suppressed but allowed her to think she is ordinary, again ignoring the reason for suppression was the actual harm she had caused. And what about the car as she walks to her concert?: she is jay-walking, a car honks and remonstrates, so she attacks with lethal force (we don’t know if the driver survives).

She has a pattern of lashing out with lethal force whenever her immediate will, no matter how trivial (oatmeal, crossing the street) is checked/challenged by another, or when anyone denies her need to be special.  Even her memories of her siblings as she destroys the house don’t even remotely amount to bullying — she just wasn’t the center of attention; they had their own lives/concerns which made her feel excluded.  And the only time we ever see any remorse is for Allison.  That looks like entitlement.  It’s like a 2-3 year old having a tantrum with a loaded gun.  But when that expectation of the world catering to your every whim persists into later childhood and then into adulthood, it’s called entitlement.

[karaddin]

That's a very different interpretation to mine. The stuff about her as a child is accurate, but she saw that Leonard had been maliciously manipulating her and was a threat to her. She saw that Pogo had been complicit in some pretty extreme abuse and while it doesn't justify his murder, that's not entitlement - that's vengeance. Allison is a bit more complicated but she didn't consciously intend to hurt her.

[dooog]

Iskaral pretty much nailed it with Vanya. Up until the point she slashes Allison she is quite a sympathetic character.  Even upon discovering her new found powers she is worried about hurting psycho boyfriend and others. But then she slashes Allison and after what, less than a day of immense remorse, breaks out of the mansion cellar prison and goes on a killing spree because... why exactly? Surely if she had any self awareness she would've learned from the Allison incident that her powers are dangerous and volatile. Instead she raises the mansion and goes on a killing spree because either A. Reasons or B. She is and always has been a self indulgent psycho. 

 

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

That's a very different interpretation to mine. The stuff about her as a child is accurate, but she saw that Leonard had been maliciously manipulating her and was a threat to her. She saw that Pogo had been complicit in some pretty extreme abuse and while it doesn't justify his murder, that's not entitlement - that's vengeance. Allison is a bit more complicated but she didn't consciously intend to hurt her.

That's framing her actions in the most favourable possible light for her, while also ignoring the nannies, the mansion, (which miraculously didn't kill any of her siblings) the honking driver and the whole concert incident, particularly the audience and performers.

[Heartofice]

What I’m guessing is that she always was self indulgent and a psycho, as demonstrated with her killing nannies in the flash back. Somehow her treatment and medication and the Rumour used on her pushed that all back down.

Her considering herself ordinary made her much more submissive and willing to stay quiet and do what others told her.

But once Leonard unleashed her power she reverted back to her true self, realising she’s one of the most powerful beings on the planet and she can do whatever the hell she want

[sifth]

18 hours ago, karaddin said:

That's a very different interpretation to mine. The stuff about her as a child is accurate, but she saw that Leonard had been maliciously manipulating her and was a threat to her. She saw that Pogo had been complicit in some pretty extreme abuse and while it doesn't justify his murder, that's not entitlement - that's vengeance. Allison is a bit more complicated but she didn't consciously intend to hurt her.

Yea, I’m sure she didn’t intend to murder her nannies either, let alone all of those innocent people in the final.........ohh and her siblings as well, many of whom stood up for her.

[karaddin]

23 hours ago, dooog said:

That's framing her actions in the most favourable possible light for her, while also ignoring the nannies, the mansion, (which miraculously didn't kill any of her siblings) the honking driver and the whole concert incident, particularly the audience and performers.

I'm not ignoring them, I'm not defending them. I just think it deserves acknowledgement that some of it is qualitatively different from the rest.

7 hours ago, sifth said:

Yea, I’m sure she didn’t intend to murder her nannies either, let alone all of those innocent people in the final.........ohh and her siblings as well, many of whom stood up for her.

Did I say this? I pretty specifically called out the three cases of there being more that was going on. Yes she goes completely off the rails and is clearly in the villain position at the end, I'm not saying otherwise. Leonard was also a villain that manufactured her turn into being a villain. Pogo was her only trusted adult figure, she clearly didn't trust Hargreaves, and he turned out to be complicit in torturing her. And yes, isolating a child in that dungeon cell completely alone for an extended period of time is torture. And he clearly knew it was wrong at the time from his facial expression.

Allison was complicit as well, but was a child which is why Vanya didn't actually want her dead but the act that injured her was primarily self defense - she's just found out that her sister cut off her powers for 20 years in an act that destroyed her psychological health and was clearly about to do it again. Knowledge of her complicity had also done major harm to Allison's life too.

Again, none of this excuses the nannies, or the destruction of the house with her siblings in it, or her subsequent melt down at the concert nor positions her as the hero. It's a story about a bunch of kids that were utterly fucked up by an abusive patent and the dysfunction that is their lives after that, regardless of what his intent was. Although I can only assume whatever life she led without his intervention still led to the Apocalypse irrespective of her desires as well - her powers are linked to her emotional in a way that leaves it really unclear whether that act has any kind of intent behind it.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

Allison was complicit as well, but was a child which is why Vanya didn't actually want her dead but the act that injured her was primarily self defense - she's just found out that her sister cut off her powers for 20 years in an act that destroyed her psychological health and was clearly about to do it again. Knowledge of her complicity had also done major harm to Allison's life too.

 

Not sure if removing your powers that you honestly have no control over and have used in the past to kill innocent people, counts as self defense. Also so long as she was on the pills and no memories of her past, Vanya seemed fine. No mental issues, no desires to kill people. It was only after she was off the pills that her empathy got smaller and smaller until it was non existent in the final. Simply put, with the pills and the lack of her memories Vanya is a perfectly normal and healthy person; sure she feels left out and maybe a bit depressed, but the alternative is her as a psychopath killing machine. Personally I find the former to be a bargain, but that's just me.

On a side note, I wonder if Allison removed the memories of Vanya having powers from all of her siblings as well. I find the fact that non of them remember to be rather strange.

[Toth]

7 hours ago, sifth said:

Simply put, with the pills and the lack of her memories Vanya is a perfectly normal and healthy person; sure she feels left out and maybe a bit depressed, but the alternative is her as a psychopath killing machine. Personally I find the former to be a bargain, but that's just me.

I... don't think that's how it was portrayed at all. Her powers are deeply connected to her emotions and in order to suppress her powers, Hargreeves suppressed her emotions. With the pills she was a wreck that not only found hard to connect with people, but in the first episodes keeps irritating her siblings by finding it hard to care about anything at all (remember Fives' frustration about her non-reaction to the news of looming apocalypse? He only interpreted that as her not believing him, but it really was more her being unable to come up with a proper reaction). When she got off her meds, she rapidly became warmer and more open, building her relationships with Leonard and Allison and even outright voicing that she never felt better and more energetic. This is even lampshaded by how at the beginning she got feedback that her violin play lacks emotion, but by the time of the first violin try-outs she was significantly better and got the job. The pills obviously didn't make her normal, they just kept her down.

Yes, she was a clear sociopath as a child, having no concept of right and wrong and clearly also lacking empathy to her surroundings (though admittedly, Hargreeves apparently encouraged the other kids to murder bad guys, too, it's just that she applied that on the nannies as well in her tantrums). That got bullied out of her as she was brainwashed and outcast, causing her to become meek, self-hating and emotionally suppressed. Admittedly, the one argument against this is her concern for Fives, but that's probably because she only very recently started the medication at the time.

I find it difficult to say how much memories she regained at the end. It doesn't seem like she is aware that her killings as a kid caused Hargreeves to do what he did. But at the end her reaction is clearly blown way out of proportion and she is just on a revenge-spree against the entire world that she perceived has wronged her.

[Heartofice]

I think I kind of agree with everyone here on Vanya, especially Toths last post. It doesn't seem to me that there is too much that people are disagreeing with here.

[Ran]

Per Screen Rant, Netflix has ordered a 2nd season, with filming to run from May to September.

[Alarich II]

Basically what Toth said.

Is Vanya petty and vengeful? Yes. Does she have serious problems controlling her emotions? Yes. Does it make her feel entitled ? I don't think so. And in fact, before she finds out about Allisons manipulation (and probably later as well) she clearly has problems with accepting that good things (even if they turn out to be result of a manipulative asshole).

Her powers are clearly linked to her emotions and she never really did learn to deal with her emotions, did she? Instead she got medicated and manipulated by her dad (who used her sister Allison to do so - a pretty despicable act itself). Same dad who basically trains the other kids as killers and severly abuses them - physically but mainly psychologically. Look at how Diego deals with his issues, he basically shows you where you might end up with lesser powers and no emotional suppression by Allisons powers.

[dooog]

5 hours ago, Alarich II said:

Basically what Toth said.

Is Vanya petty and vengeful? Yes. Does she have serious problems controlling her emotions? Yes. Does it make her feel entitled ? I don't think so. And in fact, before she finds out about Allisons manipulation (and probably later as well) she clearly has problems with accepting that good things (even if they turn out to be result of a manipulative asshole).

Her powers are clearly linked to her emotions and she never really did learn to deal with her emotions, did she? Instead she got medicated and manipulated by her dad (who used her sister Allison to do so - a pretty despicable act itself). Same dad who basically trains the other kids as killers and severly abuses them - physically but mainly psychologically. Look at how Diego deals with his issues, he basically shows you where you might end up with lesser powers and no emotional suppression by Allisons powers.

 

What about how one day after murdering several and raising the mansion, Vanya is just business as usual and goes off to perform at the concert, in the knowledge that she's replacing the murdered chair #1 whose death she's indirectly involved with... but who cares about any of that, it's her time to shine! Sounds like an entitled sociopath to me.

 

I think it's a little harsh on the professor. He gave the children a good home, provided for them and taught them how to control their abilities, without the latter they likely would've encountered even more difficulties in their lives had they not been adopted. He never prevented them from leaving and doing their own thing once they became of age. His main failing is that he was always busy (which he probably had good reason to be) and that he never showed the children any love or affection... yet he built them a robot mother who could provide these things so he was providing affection by proxy through his creation, even Vanya says as much and all the children clearly regard her with love, particularly Diego.

 

Also, the notion as someone stated above that he "tortured" Vanya is absurd. He wasn't punishing her and he wasn't exactly trying to extract spy secrets.  She was literally a danger to herself, everyone and everything around her. His attempts to teach her how to control her power failed so he went for a solution which would at least enable her to try and live a normal life.

[karaddin]

He literally locked her up underground in a sensory deprivation chamber completely sound baffled and left her there for at the very least days, implied to be considerably more. That is literally torture. The professor is profoundly abusive and I've got no idea how you can interpret it any other way, especially when what we see is 7 children all completely fucked up by the abusive nature of their upbringing.

When you call Vanya an "entitled sociopath" its the first word I'm objecting to, not the second. There is nothing about her that is particularly entitled in a way distinct from any other person in the show or reality. Now Leonard? Yeah that fucker felt he was entitled, but Vanya not so much. Even the upbringing that she remembers was filled with psychological abuse on the grounds of not being special like her siblings so its hardly surprising that she's developed some issues around inadequacy.

If you want to run with a utilitarian argument that the ends justified the means in trying to prevent the apocalypse being caused by Vanya, then I'd agree that posing that question is one of the primary thematic beats of the story...but that doesn't erase the evil of the means.